theory Vax and the Ire

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

I think that Vax is somehow connected to the Ire and is possibly a Shard Vessel. Here is my reasoning:

• Vax is only mentioned in Elantris and Mistborn Secret History. Both feature Elantrians extensively
• Vax's name alone doesn't provide much information by itself, but we know that Brandon seems to provide some clues using anagrams (Adonalsium = "a mind, a soul"). What's the anagram of “Vax Ire”? Xavier
• Now, the name Xavier is an interesting one. I didn't exist before the 16th century and originated with Francis Xavier, who was a missionary in Japan and China. Brandon was an LDS missionary in Korea and Far East cultures were one of the inspirations for Selish magic systems
• The name Xavier also comes from Basque language and means either “castle” or “new house”. The Ire have a fortress in the Cognitive Realm, which serves as their new home after they left Sel
• Vax is heavily suggested to be a place, but it's not confirmed (WoB) and I don't think it makes much sense. The Ire probably have fortresses all over Cognitive Realm and that hardly deserves a separate name
• I believe Vax could be the name of an Ire Shard Vessel. According to this WoB, the Ire expected their orb to work and it was not a test. It is possible then that they have already tried that before and on of the Ire Ascended. We know that there is a Shard not held by original Vessel that isn't Harmony (WoB) and a Shard that's not on a planet that isn't Ambition (WoB). I think they're one and the same and that this Shard is Vax
• Vax as a Shard also explains Ati's reaction. The first person he sees after he dies is Kelsier and he's a Sliver who Ascended using Ire technology. If we assume he can sense that, it's not a surprise he mistakes Kelsier for Vax
• Since Vax didn't Invest on any planet, I assume the Ire can somehow tap his powers directly from the Spiritual Realm using their technology. We've seen them accessing Connection and Fortune, so why not Investiture?
• This mechanism explains why Vax ad Taldain are mentioned alongside each other in Elantris Ars Arcanum. On Taldain, the Investiture comes from the Sun. Vax's Investiture comes directly from Spritual Realm which I believe is the Sun over Cognitive Realm (a more detailed discussion here)
• Vax could also be the Shard originally meant for the Rithmatist (spoilers):
  Spoiler

  The magic system there is basically geometric programming, so in Cosmere it would probably be located in the Selish system, a natural place to be colonized by the Ire. Shadowblazes were designed to originate from the Spiritual Realm (WoB) and could potentially be Vax's splinters

  One of the planets in the Selish system is Kii (Aon of Justice) which could be related to Vax's Intent

[Weltall]

43 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Vax's name alone doesn't provide much information by itself, but we know that Brandon seems to provide some clues using anagrams (Adonalsium = "a mind, a soul"). What's the anagram of “Vax Ire”? Xavier

You're presupposing that your conclusion is true here in order to create an anagram that proves itself. In other words, you're doing your logic backwards.

Also, as far as I'm aware Brandon has never confirmed that the anagram in Adonalsium is anything but a coincidence. We know where Brandon got the name from and it's entirely possible he picked the exact tweaks he made to the original word for aesthetic reasons that have nothing to do with creating anagrams.

Quote

I believe Vax could be the name of an Ire Shard Vessel. According to this WoB, the Ire expected their orb to work and it was not a test. It is possible then that they have already tried that before and on of the Ire Ascended. We know that there is a Shard not held by original Vessel that isn't Harmony (WoB) and a Shard that's not on a planet that isn't Ambition (WoB). I think they're one and the same and that this Shard is Vax.

Not being a test does not require that they'd already tried it and succeeded, it just means they knew what the orb was supposed to do and they expected it to work the way it did. The same could be said for Odium's splintering of Devotion and Dominion; he knew what he wanted to do, he wasn't 'testing' whether he could splinter a Shard but he was actively splintering a Shard and it worked out, just not quite like he'd hoped in the long term. Just like the Ire and the orb. For your theory to work you'd also need to explain how the Ire managed to find a Shard that was in a position to be taken. They only moved on Preservation because they knew that Leras was about to die and the Shard would be open for the taking. The only force we know that's in a position to actually kill other Shards is Odium and he's been trapped for thousands of years.

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This mechanism explains why Vax ad Taldain are mentioned alongside each other in Elantris Ars Arcanum. On Taldain, the Investiture comes from the Sun. Vax's Investiture comes directly from Spritual Realm which I believe is the Sun over Cognitive Realm (a more detailed discussion here)

Literally all Investiture other than the Dor comes from the Spiritual Realm, some of it just condenses in Physical form. Allomancy's power comes from the Spiritual and metal seen Cognitively glows because of the power trying to come through it from the Spiritual, Stormlight glows because of power flowing through from the Spiritual, Selish magics originally would have drawn power from the Spiritual Realm before Odium stuffed it into the Cognitive Realm and created the massive Investiture plasma storm that is the Dor...

Also, you're conflating two different things here. Khriss describes Taldain and Vax together in the process of Initiation, that is how you get access to magic associated with those places. She's not saying anything about where the Investiture in those systems comes from. Literally all we know is that Initiation on Taldain and Vax are different from any other system mentioned in that Ars Arcanum entry.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Weltall

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

11 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Also, as far as I'm aware Brandon has never confirmed that the anagram in Adonalsium is anything but a coincidence.

That's why I wrote "seems to provide some clues"

11 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Just like the Ire and the orb. For your theory to work you'd also need to explain how the Ire managed to find a Shard that was in a position to be taken.

If they can access enough Connection to Ascend, they probably have enough Fortune to find a Shard

11 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Literally all Investiture other than the Dor comes from the Spiritual Realm, some of it just condenses in Physical form.

To be precise, I wrote "comes directly from Spritual Realm" - by which I meant without Investing on a planet

Edited November 17, 2019 by KandraAllomancer

[Karger he/him]

54 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Vax's name alone doesn't provide much information by itself, but we know that Brandon seems to provide some clues using anagrams (Adonalsium = "a mind, a soul"). What's the anagram of “Vax Ire”? Xavier

Adonalsium's name comes from the Hebrew word for god. 

1 minute ago, KandraAllomancer said:

That's why I wrote "seems to provide some clues"

Only if you presuppose that you are correct though. 

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, KandraAllomancer said:

To be precise, I wrote "comes directly from Spritual Realm" - by which I meant without Investing on a planet

The issue is that magic systems develop because of an interaction between the Investiture of a shard and the world in which they've invested. 

No investment mean no magic system means no initiation. 

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The issue is that magic systems develop because of an interaction between the Investiture of a shard and the world in which they've invested. 

No investment mean no magic system means no initiation. 

To quote Coppermind, Initiation is

Quote

the process by which a person is chosen to gain the ability to access a manifestation of Investiture (and/or the process of actually gaining such access)

If you can draw Investiture and Spiritual attributes using technology without a formal magic system, that's something I would count as Initiation

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

If you can draw Investiture and Spiritual attributes using technology without a formal magic system, that's something I would count as Initiation

Where has that happened? The Southern Scadrian tech is powered through Ettmetal, but it's all metallic arts based. And Fabrials are a magic system of their own. 

The only magic we've seen that exists outside of a "magic system" is shards themselves, and I'd hardly count them in that way. 

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Where has that happened?

I never said it happened, only that I believe it could happen:

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I assume the Ire can somehow tap his powers directly from the Spiritual Realm using their technology

We know that the Ire might be somehow present in Elantris sequels:

Quote

Questioner

I read Mistborn: Secret History and you put some stuff from Elantris and I love it. In second Elantris will we see some?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, we will.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

and that these sequels need to be written before Mistborn Era 3 and, by extension, Stormlight Arc 2. I wouldn't be surprised if some new Cosmere mechanics appeared there

[Weltall]

17 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

If they can access enough Connection to Ascend, they probably have enough Fortune to find a Shard

Becoming Connected enough to a Shard to Ascend isn't really that difficult. Also, saying 'Fortune' doesn't answer the root question: Even if you manage to get enough of a look into the Spiritual Realm or use an application of Fortune to see a future where a Shard might be up for the taking and are able to retain that knowledge (and bear in mind that even Preservation found it difficult) you haven't answered where this free Shard is coming from. Again, it's not like there are many things that can actually kill a Vessel and literally the only thing we know that's actually done it has been trapped on Roshar for well over half the timeline we're working with.

3 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

If you can draw Investiture and Spiritual attributes using technology without a formal magic system, that's something I would count as Initiation

You're engaging in circular reasoning again. Here's the problem, you're assuming that Thing X is possible in order to prove your conclusion which is that Thing X is possible. There is no indication that you can do anything with Investiture outside the boundaries of a formal magic system. You're trying to assume that such a thing is possible in order to prove an argument that requires such a thing in order to make sense but again, you're getting your logic backwards.

1 minute ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I never said it happened, only that I believe it could happen:

,,,do you not see the problem with assuming your conclusion is correct in order to 'prove' that your conclusion is plausible?

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

5 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Again, it's not like there are many things that can actually kill a Vessel and literally the only thing we know that's actually done it has been trapped on Roshar for well over half the timeline we're working with.

It comes down to several factors:

A. The Ire have been around for a very long time, possibly millenia

B. I would assume they have agents on most Shardworlds

C. Only about half of the Shards are still alive at this point

All of the above increase the chances of Ire eventually getting a Shard

8 minutes ago, Weltall said:

,,,do you not see the problem with assuming your conclusion is correct in order to 'prove' that your conclusion is plausible?

Not once did I use the word 'prove'. This is a theory and I specifically said:

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think that Vax is somehow connected to the Ire and is possibly a Shard Vessel.

Then I presented my line of reasoning, including some both facts and my assumptions

[Weltall]

35 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Not once did I use the word 'prove'. This is a theory and I specifically said:

Then I presented my line of reasoning, including some both facts and my assumptions

It doesn't matter, the point is that you are assuming your conclusion is already correct in order to demonstrate that it could be correct.

- You are assuming that Vax and the Ire are connected in order to argue that Brandon might have encoded a hidden anagram.

- You are assuming that Investiture can be used outside of a formal magic system, even though you can't provide a single example of where this actually happens.

- You are assuming that Vax isn't Invested on a planet, even though the fact that it has an associated system of Investiture (stated outright by Khriss) means that by definition it's Invested somewhere that can be accessed.

- You rely on the former assumption being true to explain why Taldain and Vax are linked together by Khriss even though this requires you to completely ignore her clearly stated reason why she's mentioned them side by side. And to ignore that Taldain is, y'know, a planet, so even if Autonomy's Investiture radiates from that system's sun it doesn't actually say anything about where Vax's Investiture comes from.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

26 minutes ago, Weltall said:

You are assuming that Vax and the Ire are connected in order to argue that Brandon might have encoded a hidden anagram

People have wondered about the Adonalsium anagram long before my theory. I started from it and searched for more potential anagrams, until I finally came up with Vax + Ire

28 minutes ago, Weltall said:

You are assuming that Investiture can be used outside of a formal magic system, even though you can't provide a single example of where this actually happens

This is a highly speculative assumption, yes. It's clearly stated as assumption. Is there a rule against it? I didn't do any comprehensive survey, but I don't think all theories on this forum are based on examples we've seen before

[Pagerunner he/him]

I like the big-picture of your theory - that Vax is a Vessel, not a planet. The scene with Kelsier in Secret History always felt much more like a person's name to me (in line with "Senna" from Leras), and less like a planet's name. I'm having a hard time following how you connect the scene to the Ire, however:

• Vax has only one vowel, which means it's not an Aonic name.
• I got the sense from the conversation in the Ire fortress that they don't have any other Shard already. "Devotion protect us." "You won't need Devotion. You will have me."
• If Vax was a later Vessel, not one of the original sixteen, how would Ati have known the name?

As to there being another Shard that has changed hands: the WoB you linked technically doesn't say that. A Shard with no Vessel could satisfy the situation. We know Aona and Skai were sent Beyond, so they aren't holding on to their power like Leras did. Devotion and Dominion may very well be Shards that are "not held by their original Vessels" because they are not held by any Vessels. (I also thought we had learned that Harmony was the first time a new Vessel had Ascended, but I am unable to find the source for that, so I may be misremembering.)

I also don't see a connection between Taldain and Vax from the Elantris Ars Arcanum. The phrase in question is "Even Taldain's and Vax's methods do not seem to apply here." Methods, plural; not that the two planets share a single method, but, in going down the list, Khriss is saying that neither of the two distinct methods apply to Sel.

But we do know for certain that Vax has a magic system. Discounting magic systems from our known planets which are not mentioned in the Elantris AA (Roshar, Threnody, First of the Sun), that would mean there is another magic system. We have seen hints of two in-universe: one is the Aethers, and one is the crystal balls which we see the Ire use. The latter seems to be connected to Silverlight:

Quote

Questioner 1

The ball of Preservation energy that Kelsier used, is that Stamping, Hemalurgy, or a third kind of the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a different thing. You haven't really seen that before.

Questioner 1

Because it seems to have similar effects--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you haven't seen that before. It was designed to do what it did.

Questioner 2

Is it just Connection?

Bystander

Connection juice. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

We'll get into this, this is involving Silverlight stuff, so let's RAFO it for now.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

And the former, the Aethers, I don't believe can be associated with Vax, because Brandon hasn't finalized exactly how they fit in:

Quote

Pagerunner

Are the Aethers from one of the Shards that we know? Or are they of a Shard we haven't learned about?

Brandon Sanderson

Right now they are pre-Shattering.

But I will probably change that.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

They will "probably" not be pre-Shattering; but if they are, then what would Vax's magic system be? So that's why I think it must be something else. And the only other magic system we've seen (at least to a degree we can recognize it) is the crystal balls from Silverlight.

Edit: Ignore the strikethroughs. I tried to get grammatically fancy with brackets and got burned by code, and can't figure out how to fix it.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Pagerunner

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

I'm having a hard time following how you connect the scene to the Ire, however:

• Vax has only one vowel, which means it's not an Aonic name.
• I got the sense from the conversation in the Ire fortress that they don't have any other Shard already. "Devotion protect us." "You won't need Devotion. You will have me."
• If Vax was a later Vessel, not one of the original sixteen, how would Ati have known the name?

We still don't know much about Sel chronology to say things for sure - according to the Coppermind article on Aonic people, Elantris itself predates their the arrival to the region. I would guess that so does the Ire group. However, for some reason, we only seem to see Aonic Ire members. Maybe the older members hide things from younger field agents? Or there was some split within the group? I hope Elantris sequels will clarify these issues

[Weltall]

4 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

This is a highly speculative assumption, yes. It's clearly stated as assumption. Is there a rule against it? I didn't do any comprehensive survey, but I don't think all theories on this forum are based on examples we've seen before

You continue to miss the point. The problem isn't that you're making assumptions, the problem is that your assumptions presuppose your conclusion to be correct. Maybe if I bold and italicize it, this will sink in. Let's go back to your initial argument and work through the points one by one to show why this is a problem:

Quote

Vax is only mentioned in Elantris and Mistborn Secret History. Both feature Elantrians extensively

That's two examples, which isn't enough to establish a pattern. To draw an analogy, Aviar only appear in two works so far, Sixth of the Dusk and Oathbringer. Both works prominently feature worldhoppers who are interested in them, therefore the Ones Above are the Ghostbloods. It's a silly argument yes, but it's meant to illustrate that two examples do not a pattern make.

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Vax's name alone doesn't provide much information by itself, but we know that Brandon seems to provide some clues using anagrams (Adonalsium = "a mind, a soul"). What's the anagram of “Vax Ire”? Xavier

The only way this assumption means anything is if you presuppose that Vax and the Ire share a connection. The words never occur in even remote proximity to one another in Secret History and Khriss makes no mention of any connection in either the Arcanum Unbounded essays or the Elantris 10A Ars Arcanum, meaning that there's no logical reason to try mining them for potential anagrams. That makes this argument circular.

It also relies upon the assumption that the Adonalsium anagram is intentional which is unproven, so it's an exceedingly weak argument. As already mentioned several times, Adonalsium is derived from the Hebrew word Adonai.

Quote

Now, the name Xavier is an interesting one. I didn't exist before the 16th century and originated with Francis Xavier, who was a missionary in Japan and China. Brandon was an LDS missionary in Korea and Far East cultures were one of the inspirations for Selish magic systems

The name Xavier also comes from Basque language and means either “castle” or “new house”. The Ire have a fortress in the Cognitive Realm, which serves as their new home after they left Sel

Both of these are completely dependent on your circular argument for why Vax Ire should be seen as an anagram and are thus worthless.

Quote

Vax is heavily suggested to be a place, but it's not confirmed (WoB) and I don't think it makes much sense. The Ire probably have fortresses all over Cognitive Realm and that hardly deserves a separate name

The fact that Khriss explicitly identifies it as having a magic system (which is dependent on a Shard Investing somewhere) means that Vax being a place actually makes a great deal of sense, but we'll let this point stand for now.

Also, remember that Brandon sometimes likes to stir up controversy where none actually exists, just to keep us talking. Case in point, insisting on calling Taln 'the man calling himself Taln' for years, even though this was never a real issue and Oathbringer confirmed that he's really Taln.

Quote

I believe Vax could be the name of an Ire Shard Vessel. According to this WoB, the Ire expected their orb to work and it was not a test. It is possible then that they have already tried that before and on of the Ire Ascended. We know that there is a Shard not held by original Vessel that isn't Harmony (WoB) and a Shard that's not on a planet that isn't Ambition (WoB). I think they're one and the same and that this Shard is Vax

As I already pointed out and gave a counterexample, the idea that the Ire orb was expected to work and not a test does not require that they've already done this before, nor is it actually all that hard to be Connected enough to a Shard to Ascend. Kelsier and the Ire's problems were a lack of Physical Realm connection/being too connected to Ruin for the former and being too connected to Devotion for the latter. You're assuming that the Ire have already done this before in order to argue that Vax is somehow the 'Ire Shard'. Which is, y'know, circular.

Quote

Vax as a Shard also explains Ati's reaction. The first person he sees after he dies is Kelsier and he's a Sliver who Ascended using Ire technology. If we assume he can sense that, it's not a surprise he mistakes Kelsier for Vax

You're presupposing that Vax is a Shard and connected to the Ire in order to explain the reaction. You're also ignoring that Ati could have drawn a connection between the Ire and Vax at any time after Kelsier's Ascension while the two were interacting but did not. Ati only thought to make the comment about Vax after he popped into Scadrial's Cognitive Realm. Parsimony suggests that he was reacting to that, not to who he first saw. It's also concordant with Khriss' comments on Vax having a method of Initiation.

Quote

Since Vax didn't Invest on any planet, I assume the Ire can somehow tap his powers directly from the Spiritual Realm using their technology. We've seen them accessing Connection and Fortune, so why not Investiture?

This point presupposes that Vax is a Shard and didn't Invest in a world, which is circular. It also ignores Khriss' statements in the Ars Arcanum which draws a very clear distinction between Vax and Selish Initiation.

Quote

This mechanism explains why Vax ad Taldain are mentioned alongside each other in Elantris Ars Arcanum. On Taldain, the Investiture comes from the Sun. Vax's Investiture comes directly from Spritual Realm which I believe is the Sun over Cognitive Realm (a more detailed discussion here)

Repeating myself, you're ignoring the actual context of Khriss' statement, which is that Initiation for Vax and Taldain are different from Sel, to highlight just how different the latter is. This has nothing to do with where Investiture comes from.

Quote

One of the planets in the Selish system is Kii (Aon of Justice) which could be related to Vax's Intent

This presupposes that the connection exists, never mind that it's a gas giant... I skipped over your Rithmatist point because it's a counterfactual conditional and thus not useful.

Once you strip away from your argument the circular reasoning and the points that depend upon them, all you're left with is a couple of banal statements that don't actually add up to anything you're trying to prove and the whole thing collapses like a house of cards in a highstorm.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Weltall

[Pagerunner he/him]

44 minutes ago, Weltall said:

You continue to miss the point. The problem isn't that you're making assumptions, the problem is that your assumptions presuppose your conclusion to be correct.

Why are you treating this as some sort of logical fallacy? Of course you can assume your initial hypothesis is correct while discussing its ramifications. It's analogous to the scientific method, where you begin with an Observation (a potential connection between the Ire and Vax), formulate a Hypothesis (that Vax is a Vessel tied to the Ire), and design and perform Experimentation (looking at the texts and Wobs for support and/or ramifications). It's helpful to bring in new information. But there's no need to be insulting about it.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

@Weltall

You are (quite correctly) proving that my arguments don't constitute a proof - which they weren't meant to in the first place. We can't prove anything about Vax, we simply don't have enough information. As @Pagerunner pointed out, this is a hypothesis. A very speculative one. It is falsifiable - it can finally turn out to be correct or be proven wrong by a single quote or WoB. It provides some new potential explanation for Ati's reaction and a new potential anagram. Someone may use parts of this theory to create a better one in the future. That's all this is and I never claimed it to be more

The way I see it, there are two ways to look at the Vax clues Brandon gave us:

A. They have no deeper meaning, they're there just to make us discuss them ('the man calling himself Taln' scenario)

B. There are some hints hidden in plain sight here (Mistborn scenario)

We've seen Brandon doing both in the past, so we can't tell for sure which is correct. As you can see, I'm clearly in camp B here

 

As for the other issues:

Magic systems: We know of one place that has a magic system, but no Shard (Ashyn). Hoid still has access to Yolen Lightweaving even though there may be no Shard on Yolen (RAFO for now). There seems to be place for things beyond 'Shard invests on a planet' scenario

Vax and Taldain: Khriss mentions several magic systems (Scadrial, Nalthis, Vax and Taldain), but only two of them in one sentence. That might be a clue (camp B above) that she sees some similarities between them, on Initiation level or some other

Kii: We know of one example (Aether of Night) where Brandon ditched/cannibalized everything but a magic system. I assume the same can happen to a planet name

It's easy to be Connected enough to a Shard to Ascend: Absolutely true, but you have to be more Connected than other potential candidates, which could be many

Ati's memory: If we assume that Ati fully remembers his time as Ruin, then (A) he knows Kelsier is not Vax and (B) he knows Scadrial is not Vax. His confused "Vax?" comment makes no sense whatsoever. Notice that Ati is confused, but Vin is not - that's why I believe his mind being warped by Ruin's Intent messed with his memory and he can't remember events after a certain stage

[Calderis he/him]

6 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Magic systems: We know of one place that has a magic system, but no Shard (Ashyn). Hoid still has access to Yolen Lightweaving even though there may be no Shard on Yolen (RAFO for now). There seems to be place for things beyond 'Shard invests on a planet' scenario

This is the only thing you've said that I take issue with. 

A Shard not being present on a world is not a requirement. Investiture interacting in a world is to my knowledge. The Roshar system as a whole was created by Adonalsium. All of the world's in that system therefore contain Investiture from all of the Shard's, hence this WoB. 

Quote

Questioner

How many Shards have Invested their power on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, all of them did.

SpoCon 2013 (July 10, 2013)

Threnody, to our knowledge, had no shard either and there is still a "natural magic" there. 

Magic systems have a planetary focus that is more integral to the world than to the Shard, which is why all magics on Scadrial are metal based. No matter what shards are involved there, it will be focused via metal. 

No shard being on Yolen (which we don't know) does not mean that the Investiture of the system does not remain. The planet remains, and Investiture is accessed Spiritually, and Hoid has all of the Connection needed to access that world's system. 

I am not saying that what your suggesting is impossible, but all of the information that I'm aware of in world and WoB implies that the systems themselves are shaped by the planets as much or more so than the Shards themselves. To the point that shards don't actually build their systems. 

Quote

Kaimipono

On a broader level, is Hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

#kandra

Sources: Time Waster's Guide, Time Waster's Guide, Time Waster's Guide, Time Waster's Guide

Without a planet, a shard can most definitely act as they wish within the bounds of their intent... But for a person to access that and have it result in a systematically consistent and focused set of powers? That part I find unlikely. 

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

On 18.11.2019 at 11:08 PM, Calderis said:

Without a planet, a shard can most definitely act as they wish within the bounds of their intent... But for a person to access that and have it result in a systematically consistent and focused set of powers? That part I find unlikely. 

I don't really think a Shard can create a magic system like Allomancy or Surgebinding out of the blue, some kind of anchor in the Physical Realm is definitely needed. However, I see some potential loophole scenarios (usually utilizing fabrials or some other magical items) that might have been hinted at, but never fully explored in Cosmere works so far. Here are three I came up with:

1. Dawnshards. There used to be some kind of Surgebinding on Ashyn, but it no longer exists. At least one Dawnshard from there seems to have survived in Aimia though and could possibly still be active (otherwise I don't see a reason to protect Akinah using measures the Sleepless resort to). We don't know the exact rules of what happens when a magic system ceases to function, but some remnants seem to be possible. Hoid's original Lightweaving might belong to this category as well

2. The Ire are quite good at manipulating Spiritual attributes. Their devices/fabrials were probably developed using Selish magic, but I think it's possible for them to potentially tap the power of another Shard. If they could achieve that and use this power to create new fabrials, they would have basically bootstrapped a new quasi-magic system using an existing one. I can't prove this, but there is some limited hint: Nightblood. It contains Ruin's Investiture and can feed on almost anything, so at the very least we know that foreign Investiture can be embedded in magical items from another magic system and used to increase their power

3. Investing on a Sun rather than on a planet. We have only seen a very weird situation on Taldain, where there is a magic system on a planet, but Investiture comes from the Sun and some intermediary (sand microflora) is needed. Investing exclusively on a Sun, if possible, might open up some new crazy possibilities

[Honorless he/him]

I think Vax being a place is far more likely given that it's mentioned alongside other Shardworlds and has its own Investiture system.

And with the recent start chart release I have my own headcanon as to what Vax is. Possibly also explains Brandon's responses when asked whether Vax is a place or not. 

[Karger he/him]

I think Vax is its own shardworld from the way Khriss talks about it.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

OK, theory disproven - the Investiture used by the Ire comes from Sel:

Quote

Questioner

If you had a group of Elantrians on Roshar and they wanted to set up an Elantrian complex similar to the city of Elantris, what would they have to do to get that set up?

Brandon Sanderson

The only way they know how to do it is to get Investiture from Sel and pipe it, basically. That's not the only way you could do it but that's the only way they know how to do it. You've seen them doing that in Secret History. Basically if they want their powers to work, they have huge workarounds they have to put in place. That's not all of it but that's basically... Yeah.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

OK, theory disproven - the Investiture used by the Ire comes from Sel:

Sorry.