Secret Cosmere aware organization (s) originating from nalthis

[Friendshipspren]

So as we know if someone gains 2000 breaths , they reach the fifth Heightening and stop aging , get increased resistance if not downright immunity to poisons and diseases. They basically become immortal.

Yet we don't find any centuries old ppl apart from Vasher , VaraTreledees (Denth), Yesteel and Arsteel ( may he not rest in peace seeing as he's clod ), we don't really see any old people. And the aforementioned people were all Returned.

I find this extremely strange. Tfh is not easy to get , but it's not really uncommon among nobility or the upper merchantile classes. Besides we are talking about functional immortality. I'm sure there are many ppl who won't hesitate to use unscrupulous , brutal methods to acquire the breaths. 

Yet so far it seems we have seen no such ppl. 

Why ? Are they present but keep a low profile. If that's the case , then wouldn't they remember the events of the Manywar and have learned a lot of stuff over the centuries. 

And I think breaths have been around for millennia , so that means  there could be people older than the kandra. People who have had a long time to think and learn and practice.

Ppl who could like the Ire or the Ghostbloods are Cosmere aware and might have agendas of thier own. 

Could the Terriswoman who was the Idrian spy be part of that organization ?

Could they be one of the 10 secret societies on Roshar ? Is that how Vasher and Vivenna were able to find a way to Roshar ? 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Calderis]

Honestly? Breath is ridiculously expensive, it doesnt increase your healing ability, and if you drop below the the Fifth heightening, the older you are the more rapidly you're going to age. 

Quote

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

If a person held enough breath to attain the 5th heightening, lived for a thousand years, and then sold all but their initial breath, would their spiritual age force them to rapidly age as we saw with Rashek, or would they resume natural aging from the point at which they ceased?

Brandon Sanderson (written)

I think they would rapidly age.

But I'm not ready to say 100%.

General Signed Books 2018 (April 17, 2018)

(thank you again @hoiditthroughthegrapevinefor asking that question for me)

So between cost, potential injury, and accidental aging through inexperience, I don't think many people would manage to get there, and those who do won't last nearly as long as seems natural. 

The few that do exist are probably smart enough that that's exactly WY we haven't heard of them, just like no one knew who Vasher or Denth or Arsteel were beyond names that are basically myths. 

[Friendshipspren]

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Honestly? Breath is ridiculously expensive, it doesnt increase your healing ability, and if you drop below the the Fifth heightening, the older you are the more rapidly you're going to age. 

(thank you again @hoiditthroughthegrapevinefor asking that question for me)

So between cost, potential injury, and accidental aging through inexperience, I don't think many people would manage to get there, and those who do won't last nearly as long as seems natural. 

The few that do exist are probably smart enough that that's exactly WY we haven't heard of them, just like no one knew who Vasher or Denth or Arsteel were beyond names that are basically myths. 

Brandon said he wasn't sure.

Breath is expensive but the fifth Heightening is lucrative. 

Also again unscrupulous methods. Torture , kidnapping , human husbandry, extortion.

Maybe not in Halladren or Idris but what about the other nations , esp the seemingly collapsed and lawless regions like huth and kuth.

Or before the establishment of Hallandren.

I'm sure ppl who are rich enough to have 2k breaths can hire trustworthy bodyguards and such. They might be warriors themselves or have an entire menagerie of awakened objects or Lifeless to protect them

There should be lots of them esp if breaths have been around for millennia.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Calderis]

And what's to stop someone from torturing them for their breath? Immortality and awakening, and greed are fantastic motivations to get someone to either give up their breath or die in the attempt. 

And you sure as hell better learn to suppress your breath aura, or you're a walking target. 

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

There should be lots of them esp if breaths have been around for millennia.

While Breath may have been around for quite some time beforehand (and it may well not have been) Hoid says quite directly in Warbreaker that Awakening has been known for barely four hundred years as of the time of the story and the first Returned appeared only two hundred or so years before that. Knowledge of Awakening is a prerequisite to gaining any more Breath than the one that a Nalthian is born with. So no, the ability to learn about the Fifth Heightening much less attain it has not been around for nearly as long as you're assuming.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Weltall

[Friendshipspren]

 

Quote

If a person held enough breath to attain the 5th heightening, lived for a thousand years, and then sold all but their initial breath, would their spiritual age force them to rapidly age as we saw with Rashek, or would they resume natural aging from the point at which they ceased?

I think they would rapidly age.But I'm not ready to say 100%.

Not 100%. So it is probable that someone could store the breath in some object and then go out in public and make ppl think u don't have lots of breath. 

These ppl could also be highly secretive. It's not like ppl can sense it from miles away. 

 Secrecy , occasionally appearences without breaths , lots of protective awakened objects, loyal bodyguards , martial skill , a legion of lifeless ( maybe the initial ones were stolen during the Manywar and later u just made new ones ) should be enough to safeguard from kidnapping. 

And they are gonna try to kidnap u . Ur breaths die with u. So it's not like they will be trying to assassinate u.

If u survive long enough . U could get a Aviar  ( mraize in OB ) or hire a coppercloud ( should be easier in era 1.5 )or just get aluminum to cloak you ( again era 1.5 and u just need a few thin sheets of it )

Ok , maybe not a lot of ppl could make it. But I'm willing to bet atleast a dozen or so could , esp if they all form a secret society. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Friendshipspren]

54 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And what's to stop someone from torturing them for their breath? Immortality and awakening, and greed are fantastic motivations to get someone to either give up their breath or die in the attempt. 

And you sure as hell better learn to suppress your breath aura, or you're a walking target. 

Mistings or more appropriately mistborn were walking targets for Inquisitors and Obligators. They didn't have copperclouds at all times and places. They still survived. 

Breaths stand out more than allomancy sure , but with enough protective measures... It's not impossible again esp if u r part of a secret society.

[Friendshipspren]

17 minutes ago, Weltall said:

While Breath may have been around for quite some time beforehand (and it may well not have been) Hoid says quite directly in Warbreaker that Awakening has been known for barely four hundred years as of the time of the story and the first Returned appeared only two hundred or so years before that. Knowledge of Awakening is a prerequisite to gaining any more Breath than the one that a Nalthian is born with. So no, the ability to learn about the Fifth Heightening much less attain it has not been around for nearly as long as you're assuming.

Oh right. Thanks weltall. Ok four centuries then. Let's say three . Still enough time esp after the chaos of the Manywar when knowledge and lifeless were widespread and lawlessness allowed for breaths to be stolen from ppl.

All u need is a group of ppl  with some foresight and no conscience. 

If 16 ppl could get together and succeed in murdering a God. I don't see why this is impossible. 

[Weltall]

You have an Edit button, please use it next time instead of triple-posting.

Now, your argument seems to be 'Secret societies exist in the Cosmere, therefore the people with BioChroma-granted immortality are part of one because we don't hear about them in Warbreaker'. You're missing a couple of steps between your Premises and your Conclusion.

52 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Mistings or more appropriately mistborn were walking targets for Inquisitors and Obligators. They didn't have copperclouds at all times and places. They still survived. 

Breaths stand out more than allomancy sure , but with enough protective measures... It's not impossible again esp if u r part of a secret society.

Those are not really analogous situations. Allomancy is only detectable with A-Bronze when someone is actively burning a metal so the only thing a skaa misting/mistborn needed to do to stay undetected was avoid burning their metals unless there was a Smoker nearby or they were otherwise certain there weren't any Inquisitors nearby. Breath aura by contrast is visible to everyone and the more Breath you have, the more pronounced the aura. Hence, if anyone has reached the Fifth Heightening they're going to want to be extremely circumspect about it, lest they make themselves a target.

It's not required to posit that they all joined a secret society to explain why they don't get mentioned in Warbreaker, especially since it's clear that the ability of the Nalthians to accurately remember even three centuries worth of history is... sketchy. If nobody can remember that Strifelover, Kalad and Peacegiver are all the same person despite being, respectively, the guy who started the Manywar, the namesake of the biggest boogeyman around Hallandren and the guy who ended the Manywar (y'know, all kind of important figures) then it's not hard to accept that they might be able to overlook people who've reached the Fifth Heightening and who are actively trying to avoid notice. This would also explain why they aren't working as bestselling authors of books like The Many Names of Vasher: An Eyewitness Account. Publicizing that kind of knowledge would be the exact opposite of keeping a low profile.

Plus as already mentioned, Breath doesn't make you any more durable than an ordinary person and you need a comfortable Breath reserve on top of whatever got you to the Fifth Heightening or there's a chance you'll kill yourself very quickly when you try any significant Awakening. Even if Brandon doesn't canonize that WoB, any Awakening that drops you below the threshold would still cause you to start aging again even if it's only at a normal rate.

45 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

If 16 ppl could get together and succeed in murdering a God. I don't see why this is impossible. 

We have no idea how Adonalsium was killed so to say this is an unsupported logical leap is putting it mildly. Especially since it's almost certain that Adonalsium allowed the Shattering to happen.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Weltall

[Aon Tia]

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

We have no idea how Adonalsium was killed so to say this is an unsupported logical leap is putting it mildly. 

If Adonalsium was killed by 16 people who took shards is "Unsupported logical leap " then:

 

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

it's almost certain that Adonalsium allowed the Shattering to happen.

is most certainly an "Unsupported logical leap "

Edited November 5, 2019 by The traveller

[Honorless]

To note that we've only seen Idris and T'Telir in Warbreaker.

Also the Five Scholars split during the Manywar conflict, so other nations like, Tedradel & Gys, as well as the now collapsed nations of Huth & Kuth probably have (& had) knowledge of different uses of Breath and Awakening techniques, and culture that evolved around the magic. So who knows? Maybe in those nations very old people flaunt their Breath-earned age as a symbol of wealth, prestige & power, kind of like the people of Babatharnam on Roshar.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Honorless
missing commas

[Aon Tia]

42 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Maybe people on those nations have very old people flaunting their age as wealth, prestige & power, kind of like the people of Babatharnam on Roshar.

I also thought that may be 5th heightening or more, will cause one to not look as old as they actually are... May be that is why we think we have not seen any..

Have no real evidence to it.. but is it possible?

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, The traveller said:

I also thought that may be 5th heightening or more, will cause one to not look as old as they actually are... May be that is why we think we have not seen any..

Have no real evidence to it.. but is it possible?

Heightenings can be hidden. So, quite possible that some just slipped past.

[Friendshipspren]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

And what's to stop someone from torturing them for their breath? Immortality and awakening, and greed are fantastic motivations to get someone to either give up their breath or die in the attempt. 

And you sure as hell better learn to suppress your breath aura, or you're a walking target. 

The same could be asked of the Godkings. They have several times as many breaths and don't even bother hiding. 

Yet no one targets them. Why ?

Cause he has armies of lifeless and a trustworthy bureaucracy who in turn won't betray cause they either believe in him or in a higher purpose ( safeguarding duty from Vasher ). And cause ppl believe he will use his breaths to defend himself if needed.

Similarly , there might be a miniature cult of personality or greater purpose around a person with the fifth heightening along with a legion of lifeless. He/she could use the breaths to defend themselves as well. 

[Friendshipspren]

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

 

Now, your argument seems to be 'Secret societies exist in the Cosmere, therefore the people with BioChroma-granted immortality are part of one because we don't hear about them in Warbreaker'. You're missing a couple of steps between your Premises and your Conclusion.

 

Actually my argument is the opposite . That there are other unknown secret societies in the Cosmere and a group of functionally immortal ppl who can gain knowledge , make/adjust goals and decisions , gain a cult like status and loyal followers, etc around them are among the most likely to lead one of them. 

I didn't actually start with this theory. I waa just wondering why there aren't any old ,old ppl seen or mentioned in Warbreaker and asked this question but then I realized they are like prime candidates for secret society leaders and adjusted my theory accordingly. Should have adjusted the title too. 

Oh well better late than never .

Quote

It's not required to posit that they all joined a secret society to explain why they don't get mentioned in Warbreaker, especially since it's clear that the ability of the Nalthians to accurately remember even three centuries worth of history is... sketchy

I didn't even think of it that way really , but ok . Ur point about them splitting Vasher into three distinct historical entities is good. But I think it  supports my theory by that it's easier for my secret leaders to never age and remain unsuspicious and inconspicuous in the eyes of the ppl. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The same could be asked of the Godkings. They have several times as many breaths and don't even bother hiding. 

Yet no one targets them. Why ?

Cause he has armies of lifeless and a trustworthy bureaucracy who in turn won't betray cause they either believe in him or in a higher purpose ( safeguarding duty from Vasher ). And cause ppl believe he will use his breaths to defend himself if needed.

Similarly , there might be a miniature cult of personality or greater purpose around a person with the fifth heightening along with a legion of lifeless. He/she could use the breaths to defend themselves as well. 

So the person I question needs to be a leader or deity figure of a religion snd/or government? 

And despite being a public figure, Susebron was so sheltered as to have been a overgrown child, and so secluded that despite being a public figure no one realized he didn't have a tongue... And the main plot of the book was still about a plot to either kill or control him... By a group other than the one that already controlled him. 

Not to mention we see one Returned die and another sacrifice themselves in order to thwart that very plot. 

4 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

I didn't even think of it that way really , but ok . Ur point about them splitting Vasher into three distinct historical entities is good. But I think it  supports my theory by that it's easier for my secret leaders to never age and remain unsuspicious and inconspicuous in the eyes of the ppl. 

Vasher and Denth, also have the ability to control and manipulate their appearance, which makes being different people a lot easier. 

[Friendshipspren]

23 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So the person I question needs to be a leader or deity figure of a religion snd/or government? 

And despite being a public figure, Susebron was so sheltered as to have been a overgrown child, and so secluded that despite being a public figure no one realized he didn't have a tongue... And the main plot of the book was still about a plot to either kill or control him... By a group other than the one that already controlled him. 

Not to mention we see one Returned die and another sacrifice themselves in order to thwart that very plot. 

Vasher and Denth, also have the ability to control and manipulate their appearance, which makes being different people a lot easier. 

Well I was thinking more Silverlightesque than government but sure , maybe not in Hallandren but other nations.

They don't have to have thier tongue Removed .That would solve half the problems , I mean susebron did just demolish the rebellion once he got his tongue.

As for being oversheltered. I think living for a centuries coupled with surviving the Manywar would make them the opposite. 

Also it took careful planning by Denth, a returned who has  lived for centuries and through the Manywar to execute the plot and he failed in the control susebron part by susebrons own actions and lightsongs loyalty 

[Calderis]

I'm... Not sure I read the same book here. Denth was literally what he said he was. A mercenary following orders. Not the mastermind.

And equating anyone's ability with awakening to Susebron is... Unrealistic. 

Edit: and it wasn't Lightsong's loyalty. It was the direct work of a Shard. It was the reason he returned in the first place... Which was a backup plan to Blushweaver. 

The entire plot of the book revolves around thwarting that plan. I don't think most people are going to be lucky enough to have a Shard preventing their death to maintain a world populations stability. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Calderis

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I'm... Not sure I read the same book here. Denth was literally what he said he was. A mercenary following orders. Not the mastermind.

 

I disagree. Yes he was a mercenary but I don’t think everything he did was simply following orders. Things like using vivenna, kidnapping her while she did not even realise it and then using her to instigate rebellion, at least were pretty entirely his idea! And it was an ingenious one..

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, The traveller said:

I disagree. Yes he was a mercenary but I don’t think everything he did was simply following orders. Things like using vivenna, kidnapping her while she did not even realise it and then using her to instigate rebellion, at least were pretty entirely his idea! And it was an ingenious one..

Which, per the book itself and the annotations, were things that he improvised yes, but that he was supposed to be doing anyway. 

He tricked her unto thinking he was a friend and so could keep her under his thumb and use her to stir up rebellion... But it only worked because she was both naive and arrogant. If she'd been smaeted, he'd have locked her up and done everything on his own. 

I'm. It saying he wasn't smart in the way that he did things. He was skilled at carrying out his orders. But he was still following orders. 

[Aon Tia]

29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm. It saying he wasn't smart in the way that he did things. He was skilled at carrying out his orders. But he was still following orders. 

And I see it a little differently. I also have another theory on how he managed it. 
It felt a little like vivenna was being soothed or rioted in a lot of these scenes. I am not saying Allomancy but through awakening may be. 

[Honorless]

20 hours ago, The traveller said:

And I see it a little differently. I also have another theory on how he managed it. 
It felt a little like vivenna was being soothed or rioted in a lot of these scenes. I am not saying Allomancy but through awakening may be. 

I noted that too in my rereads. If Vasher can use Awakening to edit memories then maybe there are other secrets of Awakening too which might allow something akin to Soothing or Rioting

[Aon Tia]

20 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I noted that too in my rereads. If Vasher can use Awakening to edit memories then maybe there are other secrets of Awakening too which might allow something akin to Soothing or Rioting

Editing memories also.. 

but remember how the girl they rescue immediately went to Vasher  and hugged him, they meet dogs on their way barking who mellow down immediately.. 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by The traveller

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Editing memories also.. 

but remember how the girl they rescue immediately went to Vasher  and hugged him, they meet dogs on their way barking who mellow down immediately.. 

 

That is an aspect of being Returned. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Notice how he grows in size here when he isn't paying attention. That's his Returned nature beginning to manifest, much like Vivenna's hair reacts to her emotions, because of the moment of great passion from him during the fight.

In this chapter, we also get the first hints that children and animals like Vasher. That's another hint about his nature—though a very, very subtle one, since I haven't talked about how animals and children all like Returned. They can sense the divine Breath within him, and it comforts them.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 9, 2011)

 

[Aon Tia]

Ok thanks for the wob..