Oathgates, Inkspren, and Lightspren - The Surge of Transportation

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Does anyone else think it is rather suggestive that the two spren in Oathgates - when not corrupted - are a giant black spren, and a giant white spren, while the two Orders associated with the surge of transportation are Elsecallers and Willshapers, with Inkspren and Lightspren respectively?

 

So, I think the Oathgates are made by a combination of both orders, with Transformation and Cohesion, so resolute builders working with those who are wise and careful, using Cohesion to partially break down reality and Transform it into a teleportation zone. The question then, is are the two giant spren newly made for the Oathgate, or did they get bound into it, and in either case are they an Inkspren and a Lightspren, or spren related to each species?

 

What are your thoughts?

[Karger he/him]

I have seen similar theories before.  I personally disagree as if you can make any number of oathgates you should just make as many as possible.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

I have seen similar theories before.  I personally disagree as if you can make any number of oathgates you should just make as many as possible.

To be clear, do you mean you disagree with the Oathgate spren being Inkspren and Lightspren or their cousins, or that Oathgates required Willshapers and Elsecallers to make?

[Aon Tia she/her]

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

So, I think the Oathgates are made by a combination of both orders, with Transformation and Cohesion

I have a similar theory, however the two orders also have surge of transportation! And that is literally what the oathgates do. I don’t know why transformation and cohesion will have to be used. 

54 minutes ago, Karger said:

I personally disagree as if you can make any number of oathgates you should just make as many as possible.

May be oathgates require really big size spren and it is difficult to get the inkspren and light spren or their related cousin spren, to become so big... 

[Pagerunner he/him]

Lightspren are not white; they are bronze.

Quote

Syl said they were lightspren, but the common name was Reachers. They looked like humans with strange bronze skin - metallic, as if they were living statues.

 

[Aon Tia she/her]

6 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Lightspren are not white; they are bronze.

I know, that’s why I never posted my theory. But, are all inkspren black? Do they or teachers have white cousins...

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

I have a similar theory, however the two orders also have surge of transportation! And that is literally what the oathgates do. I don’t know why transformation and cohesion will have to be used. 

Well the topic does mention the surge of transportation ;-P I mean that those two orders which share that surge also have other surges which I think are involved in making the Oathgates. I suspect Cohesion can affect reality as well as matter, and transformation possibly covers all types of transformation, so also changing the nature of a location.

 

55 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Lightspren are not white; they are bronze.

However, their appearance in the physical realm is like a ball of light, which I think was described as white, and definitely was described as comet-like, which usually are white, and both Oathgate spren have a shimmering quality to them. If this theory is right then the Oathgate spren also seem to be changed in some way, which could also reflect in some cognitive changes, including linking their minds for example. Either way, Inkspren and Lightspren both seem to be two extremes in terms of appearance - metallic and oily - while retaining a shimmer, and Willshapers are described as being associated with the ideas of being builders - so builders with the power of teleportation, along with scholars with the power of teleportation, and a fabrial which would likely require skilled builders and scholars to make with two spren which have strong similarities in appearance to the spren of those two orders.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Ixthos
too changed to two

[Aon Tia she/her]

17 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Well the topic does mention the surge of transportation ;-P I mean that those two orders which share that surge also have other surges which I think are involved in making the Oathgates. I suspect Cohesion can affect reality as well as matter, and transformation possibly covers all types of transformation, so also changing the nature of a location.

Hahaha.. oh yes it does...  well then I totally agree with you

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

To be clear, do you mean you disagree with the Oathgate spren being Inkspren and Lightspren or their cousins, or that Oathgates required Willshapers and Elsecallers to make?

The first largely.  Plenty of other Inkspren and Lightspren exist.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

May be oathgates require really big size spren and it is difficult to get the inkspren and light spren or their related cousin spren, to become so big... 

The Radiants had ample time.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Karger

[Aon Tia she/her]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

The Radiants had ample time.

Time may not be the only constraint here 

[Karger he/him]

4 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Time may not be the only constraint here 

What other constraints can you think of?

[Aon Tia she/her]

I remember that spren go to certain places to have children, places where investiture accumulates in shadesmar, may be in order to create oathgate level spren, you have to go there and somehow accumulate a lot of that investiture into one spren... and it is difficult to do it...

[Quantus he/him]

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

What other constraints can you think of?

The first that comes to mind is Mortal Population.  For reasons even the Spren do not understand, the Mandra's cannot survive long away form mortal population centers, and as a more general statement Mortals are one of the main food sources for lesser spren, particularly emotional spren (which Syl calls Passions).  I couldnt say what the actual mechanism is, but I think it's significant that the Oathgates are all located in those large cites, specifically the large fractal cities.  Which is another common trait that might indicate a construction constraint.  Perhaps the Oathgates need to be supported by whatever it was that made these cities form as unique fractal shapes, and my money is giant Earth-Spren (Ground-spren? Roshar-spren?) that are cousins of the Cryptics and The Sibling.   

 

As to the OP, I have a general theory Ive been nursing recently that would apply, if at all correct.   I have begun to think that all the best and most complex Fabrials of the Radiant Era were not actually crafted physical objects the way Navani understands them.  The current understanding of a Fabral is to build a physical device that manipulates Stormlight in known ways, and then trap a naturally occurring spren that is somehow sympathetic and/or resonant with the intended function and/or purpose.  I suspect that the best Artifabrians of the Radiant era instead used Soulcasting directly on the objects Spren to convince it to become a given Fabrial to it's core.  So rather than building a device and then trapping a spren inside to power it, they would use soulcasting to directly reconfigure the Spirit/Spren of the object into a Fabrial.  Which would mean that Oathgate-Spren are literally that, something as unique ans specific, whose Self-Identity is as specific as any Ship or Castle bead. Whether they started with Sapient Spren or they Soulcast an Object with enough Investiture to ascent an Object-spren to full sapience, I have no idea.  

Edited October 24, 2019 by Quantus

[Aon Tia she/her]

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

As to the OP, I have a general theory Ive been nursing recently that would apply, if at all correct.   I have begun to think that all the best and most complex Fabrials of the Radiant Era were not actually crafted physical objects the way Navani understands them.  The current understanding of a Fabral is to build a physical device that manipulates Stormlight in known ways, and then trap a naturally occurring spren that is somehow sympathetic and/or resonant with the intended function and/or purpose.  I suspect that the best Artifabrians of the Radiant era instead used Soulcasting directly on the objects Spren to convince it to become a given Fabrial to it's core.  So rather than building a device and then trapping a spren inside to power it, they would use soulcasting to directly reconfigure the Spirit/Spren of the object into a Fabrial.  Which would mean that Oathgate-Spren are literally that, something as unique ans specific, whose Self-Identity is as specific as any Ship or Castle bead. Whether they started with Sapient Spren or they Soulcast an Object with enough Investiture to ascent an Object-spren to full sapience, I have no idea.  

That sounds like a very cool idea. And it seems plausible too.

also I agree with the mortal population constraint. It may not seem like a big problem because at present Roshar is densely populated but back during desolations, humanity probably lived mostly in the these 10 cities , like islands of dense population with vast empty spaces in between...

Edited October 24, 2019 by The traveller

[Pathfinder]

Got a theory of my own, with very loose backing. Basically When a radiant dies (either from old age, or being killed), but the oaths were not broken, you have a spren who is hurt after. I think that spren gets three options.

1. Return to the cognitive and not bond any knights further (because they miss their radiant)

2. Return to the cognitive and eventually bond a new radiant

3. Through fabrial science, bond with a fabrial, with the strength depending on the oath level of the knight that died. So if the knight was a 2nd oath elsecaller, then the soulcaster made from the spren can only soulcast a limited number of essences. 5th oath elsecaller, then the soulcaster can soulcast virtually any essence. Would explain the rarity. Also would explain why the Oathgates are so limited in number. Would require (in my opinion) 40 5th oathed radiant spren (elsecaller and willshaper). Two for each oathgate. 10 gates at each of the 10 kingdoms, and 10 oathgates at Urithiru for each of the 10 kingdoms. My assumption is they would have to be on both ends. But like I said, loose theory. 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Karger it is possible that the process is highly costly, requires skills lost early on that the Heralds can't replicate themselves, or that the spren themselves are adverse for whatever reason, that the process kills two seperate beings to make a third, and so is only done in emergencies.

@The traveller that also makes sense, making only the number needed for the population at the time.

 

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

As to the OP, I have a general theory Ive been nursing recently that would apply, if at all correct.   I have begun to think that all the best and most complex Fabrials of the Radiant Era were not actually crafted physical objects the way Navani understands them.  The current understanding of a Fabral is to build a physical device that manipulates Stormlight in known ways, and then trap a naturally occurring spren that is somehow sympathetic and/or resonant with the intended function and/or purpose.  I suspect that the best Artifabrians of the Radiant era instead used Soulcasting directly on the objects Spren to convince it to become a given Fabrial to it's core.  So rather than building a device and then trapping a spren inside to power it, they would use soulcasting to directly reconfigure the Spirit/Spren of the object into a Fabrial.  Which would mean that Oathgate-Spren are literally that, something as unique ans specific, whose Self-Identity is as specific as any Ship or Castle bead. Whether they started with Sapient Spren or they Soulcast an Object with enough Investiture to ascent an Object-spren to full sapience, I have no idea.  

I like that :-) it might even be a combination of things, like merging the objects spren with another spren, or combine that object spren with a surge, transforming it. Though I think a key thing is that the Oathgates have two spren, so does the object spren split into two, or split into two and combine with two other spren?

 

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Got a theory of my own, with very loose backing. Basically When a radiant dies (either from old age, or being killed), but the oaths were not broken, you have a spren who is hurt after. I think that spren gets three options.

1. Return to the cognitive and not bond any knights further (because they miss their radiant)

2. Return to the cognitive and eventually bond a new radiant

3. Through fabrial science, bond with a fabrial, with the strength depending on the oath level of the knight that died. So if the knight was a 2nd oath elsecaller, then the soulcaster made from the spren can only soulcast a limited number of essences. 5th oath elsecaller, then the soulcaster can soulcast virtually any essence. Would explain the rarity. Also would explain why the Oathgates are so limited in number. Would require (in my opinion) 40 5th oathed radiant spren (elsecaller and willshaper). Two for each oathgate. 10 gates at each of the 10 kingdoms, and 10 oathgates at Urithiru for each of the 10 kingdoms. My assumption is they would have to be on both ends. But like I said, loose theory. 

Interesting idea! I personally prefer to think that due to their mostly static nature spren would usually take option 2, but that does make sense.

[NameIess]

The oathgate spren could also be splinters of Honor and Cultivation.

[Aon Tia she/her]

Every spren on roshar is basically a splinters of honor or cultivation. This is from coppermind: 

Quote

In the strictest sense, however, spren are splinters of one of more Shards, with a single spren being composed of one or more types of Investiture. Most spren are splinters of Honorand Cultivation, or a mixture of both that leans towards either one Shard or the other.^[

 

[Pathfinder]

25 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Interesting idea! I personally prefer to think that due to their mostly static nature spren would usually take option 2, but that does make sense.

Thank you! Though it could be said that a spren could stay static bonded to a fabrial holding them at the same oath. Rather than risk losing themselves and having to bond all over again to regain that level of sapience in the physical realm. 

[Karger he/him]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

.  I couldnt say what the actual mechanism is, but I think it's significant that the Oathgates are all located in those large cites, specifically the large fractal cities.  Which is another common trait that might indicate a construction constraint.  Perhaps the Oathgates need to be supported by whatever it was that made these cities form as unique fractal shapes, and my money is giant Earth-Spren (Ground-spren? Roshar-spren?) that are cousins of the Cryptics and The Sibling.   

Hasen't Urithiru been abandoned for thousands of years? 

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

.  So rather than building a device and then trapping a spren inside to power it, they would use soulcasting to directly reconfigure the Spirit/Spren of the object into a Fabrial.  Which would mean that Oathgate-Spren are literally that, something as unique ans specific, whose Self-Identity is as specific as any Ship or Castle bead. Whether they started with Sapient Spren or they Soulcast an Object with enough Investiture to ascent an Object-spren to full sapience, I have no idea.  

Wouldn't this also indicate there be more of them?  After several millennia of buildup?

[+Harrycrapper]

8 hours ago, Karger said:

I have seen similar theories before.  I personally disagree as if you can make any number of oathgates you should just make as many as possible.

Well the "Oathgate" Spren are basically stuck there in that function unless some sort of serious outside factor intervenes(ex. Sja-Anat), so it makes sense that they only made the 10 Oathgates. It's kinda similar to one of the Aethers from Aether of Night, the person(or in this case spren) basically sacrifices themselves to be a sentient machine with little freedom, so they might not have wanted to make more Oathgates than was strictly necessary. Also, it's not like the Radiants didn't have access to lots of quick transportation with Elsecallers, Willshapers, Windrunners and Skybreakers. 

[Ciridae]

I kind of think that the Oathgates need to be able travel into the CR and the SR for instantaneous travel. So one of the spren could be responsible for going into the CR and the other into the SR. The inky black one seems to fit with the aesthetic of the CR and as far as we know the white pearly one could correspond with the SR. IIRC the white Oathgate spren in Kholinar was corrupted and only the black one was left unchanged, which would explain why the characters were only able to travel to the CR. 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

It's kinda similar to one of the Aethers from Aether of Night, the person(or in this case spren) basically sacrifices themselves to be a sentient machine with little freedom

If it was like that they we would have more.  Part of that story is that those accumulated over time so they went from only the emperor having them to common use items in some cities.

3 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

so they might not have wanted to make more Oathgates than was strictly necessary.

A larger amount of instantaneous transport could save innumerable lives.  How many is more then strictly necessary?

3 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Also, it's not like the Radiants didn't have access to lots of quick transportation with Elsecallers, Willshapers, Windrunners and Skybreakers. 

None of which seem to be as fast or as good.

[+Harrycrapper]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

If it was like that they we would have more.  Part of that story is that those accumulated over time so they went from only the emperor having them to common use items in some cities.

A larger amount of instantaneous transport could save innumerable lives.  How many is more then strictly necessary?

None of which seem to be as fast or as good.

I said kinda similar. Spren have much longer lifespans than humans, possibly functional immortality. The tradeoff for a human in that case is that you become a machine that people use, but you gain functional immortality. Spren already have that, so they have to give up their freedom for very little or nothing in return, if that does indeed work that way. Also, I think you're forgetting the Stormlight requirements of the Oathgates, they might not have been able to use more Oathgates than they had. I could be wrong, but there should be a much larger supply of cut gemstones in Roshar in the current time period compared to pre Recreance times. There has been 4000 years of time spent building the gem supply along with population growth that enables even higher levels of gem mining/harvesting. While they lose some to Soul Casting, they're obviously acquiring them faster than they're consuming them. I imagine in the time of the Desolations they had a harder time building up the gem supply. Either way, it's also probable that the Oathgates are in some way tied to how Honor created the Dawncities. He probably created the physical form of the Oathgates but they need Spren to facilitate the use of surges and make sure other beings don't use the Oathgate without his permission. My point being, just because they use a type of Spren that there are more than 20 of doesn't mean there isn't a reason there are only 10. 

[Karger he/him]

44 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Spren already have that, so they have to give up their freedom for very little or nothing in return, if that does indeed work that way.

Nothing except many thousands of years of service saving innumerable lives and making the world a better place. 

45 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

, I think you're forgetting the Stormlight requirements of the Oathgates, they might not have been able to use more Oathgates than they had. I could be wrong

You don't need to use all the oathgates at full capacity all the time.  However if there were just double the number of oathgates team Radiant would be considerably better off assuming a relatively even distribution.

47 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Oathgates than they had. I could be wrong, but there should be a much larger supply of cut gemstones in Roshar in the current time period compared to pre Recreance times.

Gemstones also break with soulcasting.  The number in circulation is based on economics and can very greatly as needed.

48 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

There has been 4000 years of time spent building the gem supply along with population growth that enables even higher levels of gem mining/harvesting. While they lose some to Soul Casting, they're obviously acquiring them faster than they're consuming them.

  What makes you think this?  Also in ancient times the Radiants might have had something of a monopoly on them as they are the only people who can use them effectively.

49 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Either way, it's also probable that the Oathgates are in some way tied to how Honor created the Dawncities

We don't know that Honor created the Dawncities.  What the Dawncities were or are or how they were created(although the books do hit at involves cymatics).

52 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

My point being, just because they use a type of Spren that there are more than 20 of doesn't mean there isn't a reason there are only 10. 

My only point is that there must be a reason to only make 10 and the ones given so far do not satisfy me.  This leads me to the conclusion that those explanations are incorrect.  I could of course be wrong(it has happened once or twice before) but that is my current reasoning.