Eshonai vs. Venli Flashbacks?

[galendo]

I'm leaning a bit more toward Venli flashbacks, because Eshonai is dead and Venli really needs some kind of character development that isn't just her reacting exactly the same way that Eshonai would react.  Personally I'd have rather have had all Venli from the beginning, or have had Eshonai not get hotswapped with Venli; but if you're going to swap the sisters you might as well commit to the swap.  That being said, I don't care that much either way.

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

I'd love to see some more Eshonai flashbacks, because I like her character. But Venli flashbacks would simply provide much more, in terms of worldbuilding and plot, so I have to go with her.

[Argel he/him]

I agree Brandon needs to commit to it now, but like I said above, I think he needs to use Eshonai's flashbacks to help draw the readers in that don't like or care about Venli. Maybe we'll see Venli faced with a tough decision and she'll reflect back on something Eshonai did to help her decide which choice to make. That could work (i.e. a Venli flashback of Eshonai).

[Vindo]

I really like the idea of a mixed flashback, it could be a good way to show us how both Eshonai and Venli were viewing the same events. 

[Scion of the Mists]

11 hours ago, Argel said:

So he needs to either find a way to make Venli interesting as a character fast

While I totally agree that Eshonai is awesome, and I would have loved to see her earlier years (and am still holding out hope that we still will), I find it difficult to see how Venli isn’t considered an interesting character. 

She’s the first-ever Parshendi Surgebinder, who’s also a double agent right under Odium/the Fused’s noses. She was also secretly working for Odium originally, and is responsible for the current Desolation. 

[Karger he/him]

16 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

While I totally agree that Eshonai is awesome, and I would have loved to see her earlier years (and am still holding out hope that we still will), I find it difficult to see how Venli isn’t considered an interesting character. 

She’s the first-ever Parshendi Surgebinder, who’s also a double agent right under Odium/the Fused’s noses. She was also secretly working for Odium originally, and is responsible for the current Desolation. 

This is all great potential but what we actually know about Venli as a person is minimal.

[Argel he/him]

 

12 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

... I find it difficult to see how Venli isn’t considered an interesting character. 

She’s the first-ever Parshendi Surgebinder, who’s also a double agent right under Odium/the Fused’s noses. 

Neither of those make her interesting.  You're just implying that magic is interesting and the situation is interesting. And neither of those are that interesting to me. I'm not a die hard fanatic of the magic systems so that doesn't do anything for me. And having to keep the spren a secret felt like a way to create artificial drama at times. 

12 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

She was also secretly working for Odium originally, and is responsible for the current Desolation. 

That's not enough to make the character interesting on it's own, and Brandon hasn't done much with it that doesn't feel like a trope.

I'm starting to think Brandon never planned to develop her in SA3 -- it's just setup for SA4 for her. Or maybe it's the result of not wanting to delay the book another year (I'm assuming that Tor does not want a mid-year release, so e.g. even if Brandon needed a month or two more on it, those would still result delaying it a year).

Edited September 3, 2019 by Argel

[Scion of the Mists]

31 minutes ago, Argel said:

12 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

... I find it difficult to see how Venli isn’t considered an interesting character. 

She’s the first-ever Parshendi Surgebinder, who’s also a double agent right under Odium/the Fused’s noses.

Neither of those make her interesting.  You're just implying that magic is interesting and the situation is interesting. And neither of those are that interesting to me. I'm not a die hard fanatic of the magic systems so that doesn't do anything for me. And having to keep the spren a secret felt like a way to create artificial drama at times. 

12 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

She was also secretly working for Odium originally, and is responsible for the current Desolation. 

That's not enough to make the character interesting on it's own, and Brandon hasn't done much with it that doesn't feel like a trope.

I'm starting to think Brandon never planned to develop her in SA3 -- it's just setup for SA4 for her. Or maybe it's the result of not wanting to delay the book another year (I'm assuming that Tor does not want a mid-year release, so e.g. even if Brandon needed a month or two more on it, those would still result delaying it a year).

If all those things are considered interesting situations, what exactly do you consider would make a person interesting?  And what is it about Eshonai herself, rather than her situation, that made her so much more interesting?  

Yes, of course Brandon didn't intend to develop Venli much during Oathbringer - it wasn't her book.  He also didn't develop Lift, Ash, or Taln very much, precisely because their books come later.  

Obviously I'm not trying to argue how you feel, I'm just trying to understand how someone can possibly think that Venli/her situation isn't interesting.  She was secretly scheming behind the Parshendi's backs, and unwittingly was aiding the enemy, which resulted in the deaths of almost everyone she knew.  Now she's a secret agent in the midst of Odium's forces, hiding the fact that she's a Surgebinder, and will (presumably) be working against them.  

[Argel he/him]

11 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

.... I'm just trying to understand how someone can possibly think that Venli/her situation isn't interesting.  She was secretly scheming behind the Parshendi's backs, and unwittingly was aiding the enemy, which resulted in the deaths of almost everyone she knew.  Now she's a secret agent in the midst of Odium's forces, hiding the fact that she's a Surgebinder, and will (presumably) be working against them.  

Her situation is interesting and that helped carry those scenes even when they felt trope heavy. They just didn't make her interesting. More screen time to flesh things out could have helped (and then another pass or two to tighten the writing up to get the page count down again). I don't think Brandon had time to to do that, and as you say, it may be taken care of in SA4, which may be fine.

[Karger he/him]

11 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

And what is it about Eshonai herself, rather than her situation, that made her so much more interesting?

We actually know something about Eshonai herself.  The dichotomy between her desire to be responsible and her desire to give up responsibility is incredibly interesting.  Her search for something new at the expense of her responsibilities caused her people's downfall with her discovery of the humans.  So she went back the other way and began looking to the old for salvation.  This lead to her martyrdom but no real results for her people.  This is all a fascinating character study but all we realy know about Venli is that she was selfish at the expense of her fellows and now regrets it thanks to her loneliness and Tamber's influence.  Even that has not much been explored.

11 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Obviously I'm not trying to argue how you feel, I'm just trying to understand how someone can possibly think that Venli/her situation isn't interesting.  She was secretly scheming behind the Parshendi's backs, and unwittingly was aiding the enemy, which resulted in the deaths of almost everyone she knew.  Now she's a secret agent in the midst of Odium's forces, hiding the fact that she's a Surgebinder, and will (presumably) be working against them.  

Those are not realy that interesting.  She was power hungry and got tricked by someone.  Now she mostly regrets the result but still has mixed feelings.  This is an interesting setup but nothing has actually been done.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Karger

[Elegy he/him]

And it's now officially a hybrid! According to his Facebook page!

[Inky]

3 hours ago, Elegy said:

And it's now officially a hybrid! According to his Facebook page!

For now. He still seems just a tad uncertain, but yeah, it seems like that'll be it for now, 

[agrabes]

On 9/3/2019 at 8:27 PM, Karger said:

We actually know something about Eshonai herself.  The dichotomy between her desire to be responsible and her desire to give up responsibility is incredibly interesting.  Her search for something new at the expense of her responsibilities caused her people's downfall with her discovery of the humans.  So she went back the other way and began looking to the old for salvation.  This lead to her martyrdom but no real results for her people.  This is all a fascinating character study but all we realy know about Venli is that she was selfish at the expense of her fellows and now regrets it thanks to her loneliness and Tamber's influence.  Even that has not much been explored.

Those are not realy that interesting.  She was power hungry and got tricked by someone.  Now she mostly regrets the result but still has mixed feelings.  This is an interesting setup but nothing has actually been done.

I feel like you've read a lot more into Eshonai than many people have, or at least than I personally have.  I have nothing against Eshonai, but I see her plot (that has occurred on screen) as pretty equivalent, but slightly less interesting than Venli's.  Half of the things you describe as Eshonai's plot took place prior to tWoK and are recapped in a few paragraphs in the OB prologue.  In my view, that doesn't count.  On screen, we do see her struggle vs. Venli for the future path of the Parshendi people.  We know, being the omniscient readers, that Eshonai is right about seeking the old Parshendi gods, but Venli and Eshonai themselves don't actually know that.  I honestly consider her and Venli to be pretty similar in terms of character development. 

I think you're also doing a disservice to Venli by calling her selfish.  That is Eshonai's belief, because she has a different view on what is best for the Parshendi than Venli does.  Venli believes they need power to defeat the humans and makes sacrifices to get it, while Eshonai believes that having the power is worse than being defeated and wiped out as a people.  Venli is not being selfish, she's simply trying to look out for her people's survival in a different way than Eshonai.  To me, it also makes her a more interesting character because she is challenging tradition and conventional wisdom.  She's trying to evaluate the world as it is and find her place in it rather than just fitting in with what she's been told.  Let's not forget that she did also accomplish the good of freeing the Parshmen from their mental slavery.  The regular parsh are good people who have now gained the ability to think for themselves thanks to Venli's actions.  That seems to be a major theme that is going to carry throughout the book and is a major plot in Kaladin's arc.  The people we think are our enemies may not actually be our enemies - not in a crappy "I defeated this guy and now he's come over to the good side" way, but in an interesting "We're fighting right now, but we never really thought about why we were fighting.  Should we actually be doing this?" kind of way where the answer is different for different people.  Her actions had unintended consequences both good and bad.  

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

but Venli and Eshonai themselves don't actually know that.  I honestly consider her and Venli to be pretty similar in terms of character development. 

Um.  No they are not.  Venli wants power.  Eshonai wants freedom.  Venli is pretty selfish.  Eshonai is certainly not. 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I think you're also doing a disservice to Venli by calling her selfish

Venli was willing to sacrifice her people's beliefs, culture, lives, and enslave herself in return for power.  This sounds pretty selfish to me.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Venli is not being selfish, she's simply trying to look out for her people's survival in a different way than Eshonai

Considering that Venli was completely fine with everything that happened while in stormform until her once mate was killed.  I am going to say that her people's survival does not seem to be a high priority for Venli except in regards to how that effects her.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

To me, it also makes her a more interesting character because she is challenging tradition and conventional wisdom.

Sure this would make her interesting.  Except her motivations are based on fear not a desire for change.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Let's not forget that she did also accomplish the good of freeing the Parshmen from their mental slavery

I see no evidence she had any idea that this would happen or that she cared that it did.  In fact she seems rather dismissive of the newly awakened ones.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Karger

[agrabes]

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

Um.  No they are not.  Venli wants power.  Eshonai wants freedom.  Venli is pretty selfish.  Eshonai is certainly not. 

Venli was willing to sacrifice her people's beliefs, culture, lives, and enslave herself in return for power.  This sounds pretty selfish to me.

Considering that Venli was completely fine with everything that happened while in stormform until her once mate was killed.  I am going to say that her people's survival does not seem to be a high priority for Venli except in regards to how that effects her.

Sure this would make her interesting.  Except her motivations are based on fear not a desire for change.

I see no evidence she had any idea that this would happen or that she cared that it did.  In fact she seems rather dismissive of the newly awakened ones.

I feel like again, you are reading your own views into this.  

Where does it say, in the books (aside from Eshonai's personal opinions) that Venli merely wanted power?  Yes, she did sacrifice her people's beliefs and culture for what she felt was a good reason.  Not her own personal power, but power for her people as a whole.  She believed her people needed this power to survive - they were being slowly whittled away in battles on the Shattered Plains as they lost to the humans little by little.  What I'm talking about here are Venli's initial motivations to being searching for the forms of power, not what she did after she was heavily influenced by Odium.

You also have to keep in mind that Venli (like Dalinar in his flashbacks) is under the influence of Odium once she goes into storm form.  Eshonai has the same reaction - she starts doing things that would have been out of character for her prior to the change.  Similar to Dalinar in his flashbacks, it took a significant event to shock her into realizing that what she had done was wrong and not in keeping with who she was.  Prior to that, Odium was twisting her initial motivations (desire to protect her people and to get vengeance for their deaths at the hands of the humans) into ways that caused her to act out of character.  This part is probably me making educated guesses about Venli, but I think they are reasonable guesses that can definitely be proven right or wrong if Venli is a flashback character in Book 4.

I don't think her motivations being fear make what she did any less interesting.  Less noble, sure. But not less interesting.  In real life, many changes in society are caused by fear of an existential threat just like what Venli feared.

I do agree that Venli did not have any idea that her actions would free the Parshmen - that's why I referred to it as an unintended consequence.  I also agree that as of now, she does not care that she did it.  But, I do believe that in Book 4 she will realize that she should care about them.  I also believe that regardless of what Venli herself thinks now or in the future, to the overall plot of the book freeing the Parshmen will be a positive and good deed.  You can argue that it holds no merit for Venli since she didn't intend to do that, and that's fair.  

[Karger he/him]

28 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Where does it say, in the books (aside from Eshonai's personal opinions) that Venli merely wanted power?

Look at Venli's inner monologue sometime.  "A form of power was all she wanted"

29 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Not her own personal power, but power for her people as a whole

Considering that in the aftermath of Narak most of her people are dead and she does not seem particularly broken up about it.  I am going to say that no.  She did it for selfish reasons.  She even calls herself selfish in moments of introspection.

32 minutes ago, agrabes said:

What I'm talking about here are Venli's initial motivations to being searching for the forms of power, not what she did after she was heavily influenced by Odium.

We know basically nothing about her back then other then that she was doing research and that lead her to finding Ulim.  Who she sided with in a matter that effected her entire race without consulting any member of that race other then Demid.  I do not find these actions sympathetic.  At best they are extraordinarily arrogant.  Yes!  I know better then the bast majority of our race and as such will go behind their backs to do something that could have catastrophic consequences if they are right!  Does not realy engender my sympathies.

36 minutes ago, agrabes said:

You also have to keep in mind that Venli (like Dalinar in his flashbacks) is under the influence of Odium once she goes into storm form.  Eshonai has the same reaction - she starts doing things that would have been out of character for her prior to the change.

But Venli seems completely comfortable in stormform.  Also Young!Dalinar is not a sympathetic character either.  We only sympathize with him because we know what he eventually becomes and because of the genuine love he feels for his brother.  I never said that Venli does not have the potential to be an interesting character.  I am saying she currently is not one.

39 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Similar to Dalinar in his flashbacks, it took a significant event to shock her into realizing that what she had done was wrong and not in keeping with who she was.  Prior to that, Odium was twisting her initial motivations (desire to protect her people and to get vengeance for their deaths at the hands of the humans) into ways that caused her to act out of character. 

Venli was pretty nasty even when not effected by Odium.  Look at how she treats Dalinar who is trying to stop a war without any Odium influence at all.  Sure she is scared of him and thinks war is inevitable but her first reaction is still derision.

41 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I don't think her motivations being fear make what she did any less interesting.  Less noble, sure. But not less interesting.  In real life, many changes in society are caused by fear of an existential threat just like what Venli feared.

Sure fear can be interesting.  My point was just that Venli is no noble free thinker.  She is just a scared scholar who keeps messing stuff up hence most people disliking her. 

44 minutes ago, agrabes said:

But, I do believe that in Book 4 she will realize that she should care about them.  I also believe that regardless of what Venli herself thinks now or in the future, to the overall plot of the book freeing the Parshmen will be a positive and good deed.  You can argue that it holds no merit for Venli since she didn't intend to do that, and that's fair.  

Again.  I am sure that Brandon is capable of making Venli interesting.  She just isn't yet.

[agrabes]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Look at Venli's inner monologue sometime.  "A form of power was all she wanted"

Considering that in the aftermath of Narak most of her people are dead and she does not seem particularly broken up about it.  I am going to say that no.  She did it for selfish reasons.  She even calls herself selfish in moments of introspection.

We know basically nothing about her back then other then that she was doing research and that lead her to finding Ulim.  Who she sided with in a matter that effected her entire race without consulting any member of that race other then Demid.  I do not find these actions sympathetic.  At best they are extraordinarily arrogant.  Yes!  I know better then the bast majority of our race and as such will go behind their backs to do something that could have catastrophic consequences if they are right!  Does not realy engender my sympathies.

But Venli seems completely comfortable in stormform.  Also Young!Dalinar is not a sympathetic character either.  We only sympathize with him because we know what he eventually becomes and because of the genuine love he feels for his brother.  I never said that Venli does not have the potential to be an interesting character.  I am saying she currently is not one.

Venli was pretty nasty even when not effected by Odium.  Look at how she treats Dalinar who is trying to stop a war without any Odium influence at all.  Sure she is scared of him and thinks war is inevitable but her first reaction is still derision.

Sure fear can be interesting.  My point was just that Venli is no noble free thinker.  She is just a scared scholar who keeps messing stuff up hence most people disliking her. 

Again.  I am sure that Brandon is capable of making Venli interesting.  She just isn't yet.

Fair enough - I'm willing to admit it's been a while since I've read Venli's POVs.  Maybe I'm the one assigning her a less petty motivation out of my own imagination.  I guess my point is that I think if we see Venli's early life, prior to any influence from Odium or Voidspren, we will see a different Venli and only then will we know her true motivation.  I believe her true motivation is that she wanted to obtain power to protect her people or maybe just to advance the power and capabilities of the Parshendi overall if it was prior to the Alethi threat.  She probably did this for partially selfish reasons - the glory of being the one who discovers the new abilities - but not total selfishness or a desire to keep the power to herself.  This might be wrong, the flashbacks will probably tell us for sure one way or another.

I think that once Venli had been influenced by the voidspren and Odium, everything she did was compromised until she realized later on that she had been influenced.  This influence started before we ever see her on screen and only ended partway through OB, so it includes her interactions with Dalinar.

It's fair enough if you don't like Venli or think she's uninteresting.  She's just interesting to me because she is someone who is starting to be reflective and understand that what she did may not have been the correct choice and that the results she thought would be good were actually bad.  I like those kinds of characters, probably more than most people.

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

It's fair enough if you don't like Venli or think she's uninteresting.  She's just interesting to me because she is someone who is starting to be reflective and understand that what she did may not have been the correct choice and that the results she thought would be good were actually bad.  I like those kinds of characters, probably more than most people.

So you like almost every SA character?  Perhaps every Brandon character?

[agrabes]

Just now, Karger said:

So you like almost every SA character?  Perhaps every Brandon character?

I do like a lot of SA characters, but not that many of them have the same kind of arc as Venli (at least the one I'm assigning her in my head).  What is interesting to me is a character who does something that is wrong with good intentions that are very logically sound and believable, who then comes to realize through reflection and observation that they made a mistake and changes their ways at least somewhat.  What makes it even more interesting to me is when their goals and motivations don't line up with what we think the "good guys" are supposed to be doing.  If they can find a way to be no longer evil, but still not in alignment with what the main heroes want, then that is the best situation for me.  I think Venli has a lot of potential for this - she's not going to be down with another desolation that ends in the humans defeating the Parsh/Singers and sealing up the fused for another few years.  She will probably have her own motivations and goals and will be trying to bring the rest of the team around.  I think this is where I differ from a lot of fans - many people want the villains to be villains and the heroes to be heroes, or they like the grimdark type genre where no one is really a hero and everyone is just a different degree of bad, but I like to have people in the plot who are good people with their own motivations that don't align with the heroes.

Kaladin and Dalinar are the only others in SA I would argue fit the mold, and both are only partial fits - Dalinar didn't necessarily think the bad things he was doing were morally right while he was doing them, just that they were his duty and he was addicted to the thrill, though he feels bad about them now.  Kaladin felt that what he did was right and now has changed his mind, but it's not necessarily true that what he did was wrong, just inconvenient and needlessly inflexible aside from the Elhokar plot.

For the sake of this discussion, contrast that with Eshonai: She pretty much sticks with conventional wisdom the whole way through.  She believes it's wrong for the Parshendi to return to their old gods and consistently works toward that goal the entire time.  She is never really does anything that could be considered morally wrong by anyone, though she does make mistakes.  Her actions are in alignment with what we as readers expect from a hero.  She reluctantly agrees to go to storm form to try to spare the rest of the people from that fate, not realizing that doing so will warp her mind.  Then she dies.  She doesn't have a bad story at all and I do like her as a character, but she doesn't fit the mold of what I consider the most interesting character type.

In Mistborn only the Lord Ruler could really be described as falling under that type of category.  He does something he thinks is right, but it's implied that he reflects over time that he probably made a mistake.  Though even he doesn't really fit the mold because he never really comes all the way around and continues on committing atrocities in the name of what he thinks is the greater good.  It still makes him an interesting character.  The other characters either never do something bad beyond a momentary lapse (Vin, Elend, etc) or never acknowledge that some of the things they did were wrong, even if they were done with good motivation (Kelsier).

[SongStorm]

I still feel Eshonai being dead was a mistake. I wish he could develop the sister relationship like he did in Warbreaker, with both of them being alive.

But since we can't change that fact, let's talk about pros and cons of every possible route Brandon could take:

Venly-only flasbacks

Pros

-Develop Venly as a character

-More Cosmere secrets

-Gives context to whatever Venli is doing in the present

Cons:

-Eshonai as a pov character is finished, which is sad and unsatisfying.

Eshonai-only flashbacks

Pros

-More Eshonai development, which feels needed after her abrupt death.

-Counterpoint between Eshonai in the past and Venli in the present

Cons:

-I feel if Eshonai takes the flashbacks Venli could suffer as a character. Remember how much Dalinar flashbacks were relevant for his character development.

Venli is only a secondary character at this point, without flashbacks she could be found lacking compared to the Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinar.

Both

With both you have all the pros and cons, with the risk of some of the pros being too little and some of the cons being too heavy, depending on the execution.

You take the risk of readers feeling they didn't get to know any of the sisters sufficiently. In the other hand, if executed great, you can construct the sisters' past with more depth.

Nonetheless, Brandon could make Eshonai be heavily featured in Venli flasbacks (or vice versa). If Venli things about her sister and the chapters themselves gives us a look into Eshonai's personality, then maybe will be satisfied even without flashbacks from one sister pov or the other.

[Aon Tia she/her]

Contrary to popular opinion, i never really liked Eshonai that much. I think that she said she wanted peace but at the end TWok, she kept beating Dalinar, stop beating him and actually talk to him!! no, i guess the possibility that they might kill all of these soldiers and get two shards was too tempting!! and if you are going to negotiate alethis, then why not just try that first and if it fails, then go for the weird new spren your sister has found!! i guess again that the possibility of winning the war was too tempting. so i feel that her words sounded more honorable than her actions!! 

Although jury is still out on Venli but at first i thoroughly disliked Venli, but then near the end slowly slowly that has changed. i like how Dalinar says you can change to amaram but it does not work on him but Venli feels as though the Radiant told me i can still change! This i believe was the last barrier holding her back from forming the Nahel Bond for immediately afterwards.....

she has made poor decisions but than so has many people. I think flashbacks from her point of view will have more meaning for her journey through the book like Dalinar and i think her past is more mysterious. she has more to tell/explain. Eshonai on the other hand can not add more to the plot. she does not have the anwsers i need from the flashbacks. plus cosmere mysteries!!!! it is not even up for debate !!!!

  

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

Contrary to popular opinion, i never really liked Eshonai that much. I think that she said she wanted peace but at the end TWok, she kept beating Dalinar, stop beating him and actually talk to him

She was trying to.  Kaladin intervened before she could do anything.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

then why not just try that first and if it fails, then go for the weird new spren your sister has found

Their spies were reporting the Alethi planed on marching during the weeping.  To try a new form you need a highstorm and during the weaping there aren't any.  They had only two storms left.  One before negotiations and one after.  Their options mean that they either have to try the form on someone in storm one and then use the second one to mass transform or not try it at all in storm one and then hope stuff works out in storm two.  The only oversight that was made was that they had Eshoni handle negotiations while in an untested form.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

Although jury is still out on Venli but at first i thoroughly disliked Venli, but then near the end slowly slowly that has changed. i like how Dalinar says you can change to amaram but it does not work on him but Venli feels as though the Radiant told me i can still change! This i believe was the last barrier holding her back from forming the Nahel Bond for immediately afterwards.....

So you like Venli because of one scene toward the end of the last book while hating her for all of that book and the previous book?  Sounds like you spent a lot more time hating her.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

Eshonai on the other hand can not add more to the plot

Flashbacks generally do not add much to the plot they add to our understanding of the characters involved.  I think it might be that Venli can be best understood through the eyes of her sister. 

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

she does not have the anwsers i need from the flashbacks. plus cosmere mysteries!!!! it is not even up for debate !!!!

Well maybe other readers have different needs then yours?  Also the past!Venli might not be that good at explaining answers to you the way present!Venli is.  Cosmere mysteries are nice as well but I think Brandon is more then capable of finding other ways of giving us this intelligence if he realy wants to.  Finally of course it is up for debate.  That is what we are doing right now.  Debating.

[Aon Tia she/her]

Obviously I will agree with whatever Brandon choses to do 

Other can work but I, in my own humble opinion, prefer Venli at this point. Because we need to know more about her which could be through her sisters eyes too I agree

but it might be more difficult to read about young eshonai, her dreams, her hopes to travel the world knowing the tragic end she found. It could be interesting too but it could be painful to read too. I guess we shall see. It can be different for a change. 

On 9/20/2019 at 7:28 PM, Karger said:

On 9/20/2019 at 7:28 PM, Karger said:

Flashbacks generally do not add much to the plot they add to our understanding of the characters involved.  I think it might be that Venli can be best understood through the eyes of her sister. 

 

I don’t agree especially after dalinars flashbacks that they did not add to the plot. 

We can get eshonai’ s story through her sisters pov too. It works both ways. 

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, The traveller said:

I don’t agree especially after dalinars flashbacks that they did not add to the plot. 

However Kaladin's did not and neither did Shallan's realy.

[Aon Tia she/her]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

However Kaladin's did not and neither did Shallan's realy.

Seeing as these are earlier books and some people have complained that flashbacks are boring (a fact that Brandon has discussed) although I liked flashbacks but upon rereads I tend to skip over flashbacks, after oathbringer it seems that Brandon is likely to aim for Dalinar style flashbacks