Trellium is A Perfect Mirror (Theory)

[Karger]

53 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Right, right. But Mistborns could have Allomantic Trellium spiked out of them.

Their are currently no Mistborn and even if their were they could still not use Trell's power unless Trell(or Harmony) specifically makes it so you can.  They still have no relation toward Trell.

[Halyo_Alex]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Their are currently no Mistborn

That's why the set is kidnapping people of strong allomantic heritage to try and "breed a Mistborn" according to era 2. They want to be able to spike out the Trellium Allomancy from them and put it into Kandra so that they can have access to every allomantic metal with just one spike.

1 minute ago, Karger said:

And even if their were they could still not use Trell's power unless Trell(or Harmony) specifically makes it so you can.  They still have no relation toward Trell.

Mistborn can burn any metal, even god metals. Trell may have to specifically "enable" allomancy for their god metal, but it would still work for a Mistborn if they did, which they would, so that the Set could spike it out of a Mistborn they bred to then give it to a Kandra.

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Mistborn can burn any metal, even god metals

Mistborn can burn any alomantically viable metal.  Atium is viable because Preservation said so Lerasium is viable because of the way humans on scadrial were created no one made Trellium viable.  Burning a none viable metal will make you sick or potentially kill you as per Kelsier's warnings to Vin in the final empire. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Karger

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Mistborn can burn any alomantically viable metal.  Atium is viable because Preservation said so Lerasium is viable because of the way humans on scadrial were created no one made Trellium viable.  Burning a none viable metal will make you sick or potentially kill you as per Kelsier's warnings to Vin in the final empire. 

Well then why can Trellium do Hemalurgy? Wouldn't ruin have to "consent" to having another shard's metal do something in HIS magic system?

[brasidas]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

I kind of am feeling the other way around.  Trell is likely not native to scadrial.  Harmony showed Wax an invading force that he does not understand.  The Set seems to work for Trell.  Trell claims to want to rule multiple worlds.  Why has no one mentioned or even hinted at the disappearance of other Kandra?  Remember they are all on first name basis with each other.  Why did the Set not have the Kandra they held captive spiked if they do so on a routine basis?  They held them for quite some time.  Why are these wired shapeshifters nothing like Kandra.  Why do their eyes glow and why did Bleeder's not?  If the Set has Kandra double agents then why is it a problem that Wax has the bands?

I'm not sure if this is 100% accurate or not, but I saw on another thread that usually 'hacked' magic has a red component to it. If so, that could explain the glowing red eyes. Kandra created using Trellium, but hacked somehow.

[Karger]

10 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Well then why can Trellium do Hemalurgy? Wouldn't ruin have to "consent" to having another shard's metal do something in HIS magic system?

No.  Ruin's magic system is hemalurgy but he did not control every aspect of it.  It was created via interference between the two shards.  Sort of.  Brandon has not explained it well.

5 minutes ago, brasidas said:

I'm not sure if this is 100% accurate or not, but I saw on another thread that usually 'hacked' magic has a red component to it. If so, that could explain the glowing red eyes. Kandra created using Trellium, but hacked somehow.

Possible.  But if you are going to use Trellium why bother hacking them?

[brasidas]

Just now, Karger said:

 

Possible.  But if you are going to use Trellium why bother hacking them?

It might be that Trellium was not meant to be used in any of the Metallic Arts. Alternatively, it may have been the act of creating the Kandra/Mistwraith itself that counts as hacking, because it's possible that it's not possible for Trell to use any of the Arts.

[Karger]

Just now, brasidas said:

It might be that Trellium was not meant to be used in any of the Metallic Arts. Alternatively, it may have been the act of creating the Kandra/Mistwraith itself that counts as hacking, because it's possible that it's not possible for Trell to use any of the Arts.

Alternatively, it may have been the act of creating the Kandra/Mistwraith itself that counts as hacking.  This makes sense.  I am not sure what you mean by the other two.

[brasidas]

Just now, Karger said:

Alternatively, it may have been the act of creating the Kandra/Mistwraith itself that counts as hacking.  This makes sense.  I am not sure what you mean by the other two.

Just random thoughts for the most part. First sentence was meant to convey that maybe using Trellium in Hemalurgy is the hacking, but that didn't happen with Paalm, so it's probably wrong. Last phrase is a convoluted way of trying to say that Trell might not be able to use Hemalurgy straight-up, so the hacking is using Trell's Investiture to power the Kandra spikes, if these Trellish Immortals even have any.

[Karger]

Just now, brasidas said:

Hemalurgy straight-up, so the hacking is using Trell's Investiture to power the Kandra spikes, if these Trellish Immortals even have any.

A got it. 

[Scion of the Mists]

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

No.  Ruin's magic system is hemalurgy but he did not control every aspect of it.  It was created via interference between the two shards.  Sort of.  Brandon has not explained it well.

Feruchemy, not Hemalurgy, is from the combination of the two Shards.  Hemalurgy is Ruin's magic system.  

 

13 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Trellium Allomancy

You've used this term a bunch - what does it mean?

[Karger]

Just now, Scion of the Mists said:

Feruchemy, not Hemalurgy, is from the combination of the two Shards.  Hemalurgy is Ruin's magic system.  

That is not entirely true

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

[Scion of the Mists]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

That is not entirely true

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

My interpretation of that WoB is not that each of the three magic systems are a blend of both Shards, but rather that the collective systems stem from the Shards (i.e. Hemalurgy->Ruin, Allomancy->Preservation, Feruchemy->Both).  

 

There are other (more recent) WoBs that explicitly say that Hemalurgy is "of pure Ruin."

Quote

Questioner

Allomancy is of Preservation, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes...

Questioner

What are Feruchemy and Hemalurgy of?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy is definitely of Ruin.

Questioner

Is it of pure Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's a very Ruin thing. And Feruchemy is more of a blend. Though… there is more philosophy to that and human construct—like the Allomantic table—than I think I’ve made clear before.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

P.s. It's helpful if you use the "copy" feature from Arcanum, because it includes a link to the WoB as well as the date (which can be relevent).  Or at least put a link to it.  

[Halyo_Alex]

4 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

You've used this term a bunch - what does it mean?

Burning Trellium as an Allomantic metal, like Atium or the other base 16 metals.

[Karger]

27 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Burning Trellium as an Allomantic metal, like Atium or the other base 16 metals.

It will not be possible unless Harmony specifically makes it so.

[Halyo_Alex]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

It will not be possible unless Harmony specifically makes it so.

Why not? Show me some evidence, so that we're not just telling each other "you're wrong" back and forth forever.

[Ethan_sedai]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

It will not be possible unless Harmony specifically makes it so.

Maybe. I don’t see why Harmony would need to actively choose a metal for it to be allomantically and Feruchemally viable. I think that if another Shard came to Scadrial, interacted with the planet in the same way that created The Metallic Arts, and manifested their Investiture as a physical metal, there would be nothing preventing the metal from being an Allomantic metal. Otherwise, I don’t think Atium would work with allomancy, or Lerasium with hemalurgy. 

Edit: Ninja’d.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ethan_Sedai

[First Witness]

Okay... so,  Ruin created hemalurgy.  Preservation created allomancy.  Their interference created Feruchemy. 

God metals will steal anything.  That is likely the case with ALL god metals. 

 

Burning god metals might be innate,  except Preservation put a lock on Atium so that his body could be hidden.  

 

Or The shard would have to invest in new humans or another means to change spiritwebs to allow its use.  

 

The Trellium Kandra could have been mist wraiths before their Trellium spikes. 

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, First Witness said:

Burning god metals might be innate,  except Preservation put a lock on Atium so that his body could be hidden.  

Actually Preservation would have wanted Atium to be burned, as it apparently permanently sealed off access to that part of Ruin's Investiture, weakening him in comparison to Preservation. That's why 16% of the people who got sick from the Mists were Atium Mistings.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, First Witness said:

Burning god metals might be innate,  except Preservation put a lock on Atium so that his body could be hidden.  

If anyone can burn a god metal then why does everyone not just burn atium during era 1?  It was fairly available. 

[Halyo_Alex]

45 minutes ago, Karger said:

If anyone can burn a god metal then why does everyone not just burn atium during era 1?  It was fairly available. 

The reason is that you still need a specific spiritual gene to burn a certain metal. You basically need a lock for the metal to unlock the flow of Preservation's Investiture through, although Atium is the exception as it supplies the effect itself, due to being of Ruin. So the same could apply to Trellium; it would burn away faster but supply the power from itself as the condensed Investiture of Autonomy (or Odium... Whatever Trell is)

[Karger]

11 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

The reason is that you still need a specific spiritual gene to burn a certain metal.

True.  What I am saying is that no one on scadrial will have that gene.

11 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

. So the same could apply to Trellium; it would burn away faster but supply the power from itself as the condensed Investiture of Autonomy (or Odium... Whatever Trell is)

The people of scadrial have no relation to Trell the way they do to Preservation or Ruin.  So how exactly do they unlock it?

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

True.  What I am saying is that no one on scadrial will have that gene.

The people of scadrial have no relation to Trell the way they do to Preservation or Ruin.  So how exactly do they unlock it?

One of the theories I believe would explain it like this: Mistborn have a Spiritual "enzyme" that can burn any allomantically viable metal, no matter which metal it is. Mistings have a Spiritual enzyme that can only burn one allomantic metal. There are no enzymes that can burn 2 or 4 or whatever, it's either universal or specialized for one metal. So by spiking out that Universal enzyme with hemalurgy (and spiking whatever remains after the Hemalurgic Decay) into the correct spiritual bind-point, the enzyme can still do "the thing" (whatever spiritual mechanisms allow metals to be burned for an effect) with whatever allomantic metal it's bound to.

Alternatively, there is one "metal-burning" enzyme, but the PLACEMENT of that enzyme in the spiritweb changes what metal it can burn, so you'd take one from the Mistborn and put it in the right spot for Trellium to be burned.

...Actually, wait. Hemalurgic spikes steal all 4 metals of one category. So there's probably 4 types of enzyme (physical, mental, temporal, enhancement) and then the position dictates which metal it can actually burn for power. So this does leave wiggle room that there would be a "god-metal" enzyme in the spiritweb.

 

I dunno, my brain hurts thinking about all this spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

[Scion of the Mists]

On 7/24/2019 at 4:29 PM, Karger said:

On 7/24/2019 at 4:01 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Burning Trellium as an Allomantic metal, like Atium or the other base 16 metals.

It will not be possible unless Harmony specifically makes it so.

My interpretation of what Brandon's said on the matter was always that the Shard whose metal it is is the one that has to work to make it Allomantically viable (by e.g. Investing in Scadrial), rather than Preservation/Harmony.  

[Karger]

38 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

My interpretation of what Brandon's said on the matter was always that the Shard whose metal it is is the one that has to work to make it Allomantically viable (by e.g. Investing in Scadrial), rather than Preservation/Harmony.  

I am fairly sure that Harmony is preventing Trell from doing that.