The First (or potentially last) Ideal for a Fused

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:41 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

  When Odium copied the Surgebinding that the Honorblades granted, he was probably restricted in what he could do. 

I'm not sure the Fused got their Surgebinding by Odium copying the Honorblade/Herald/KR system.

Apparently the Surges were used to destroy Ashyn, though that magic system wasn't identical to modern KR-style Surgebinding (derived from the spren copying the Honorblades), and also not identical -- though similar -- to the modern Ashyn disease-based magic.

And there are 9 orders of Fused, not 10, and 9 is supposed to be Braize's number.

So I think the Surges in general might be shared across the whole Greater Roshar system, and the Fused use Odium's/Braize's means of accessing it. The reason the Fused didn't have it originally might have been a result of having to adapt the Braize system to work right for Rosharan-native singers.

[Scion of the Mists]

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure the Fused got their Surgebinding by Odium copying the Honorblade/Herald/KR system.

Apparently the Surges were used to destroy Ashyn, though that magic system wasn't identical to modern KR-style Surgebinding (derived from the spren copying the Honorblades), and also not identical -- though similar -- to the modern Ashyn disease-based magic.

And there are 9 orders of Fused, not 10, and 9 is supposed to be Braize's number.

So I think the Surges in general might be shared across the whole Greater Roshar system, and the Fused use Odium's/Braize's means of accessing it. The reason the Fused didn't have it originally might have been a result of having to adapt the Braize system to work right for Rosharan-native singers.

Yes, the Surges are a Roshar- or Cosmere-wide phenomena, and are separate from Surgebinding, which is a particular method of accessing the Surges.  Whether or not you lump pre-Cataclysm and post-Cataclysm Ashyn Surge-wielding into "Surgebinding" is largely a matter of semantics.  

What I meant by Odium "copying" the Rosharan version Surgebinding, I mean that the Fused's magic system is extremely similar or identical to the modern Rosharan KR system (obviously one of the Surges is missing), and distinct from the Ashyn versions.  

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

9 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

What I meant by Odium "copying" the Rosharan version Surgebinding, I mean that the Fused's magic system is extremely similar or identical to the modern Rosharan KR system (obviously one of the Surges is missing), and distinct from the Ashyn versions.  

Wait, do we know a surge is missing from Fused Surgebinding? Even if the KR had no Bondsmiths, the Stonewards and Windrunners would each have 1 of the 2 "unused" surges there. They wouldn't get the same Resonance, sure, but all 10 surges could still be used with as few as 5 orders, if there was no overlap and each order used 2 surges.

Is that the question, then? 

[+TheFoxQR]

18 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Wait, do we know a surge is missing from Fused Surgebinding? Even if the KR had no Bondsmiths, the Stonewards and Windrunners would each have 1 of the 2 "unused" surges there. They wouldn't get the same Resonance, sure, but all 10 surges could still be used with as few as 5 orders, if there was no overlap and each order used 2 surges.

Is that the question, then? 

We also know that the Fused each only have one Surge. I don't remember if it said Orders or not, but it's implied that there are 9 single surge orders, implying one Surge is missing.

On 7/26/2019 at 9:29 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

What I meant by Odium "copying" the Rosharan version Surgebinding, I mean that the Fused's magic system is extremely similar or identical to the modern Rosharan KR system (obviously one of the Surges is missing), and distinct from the Ashyn versions.  

At this point, I'm pretty sure the Herald/KR version was built keeping resonances in mind, whereas Odium just straight up gave them Surges.

It's like... the Herald/KR system was built knowing there'd be a natural outgrowth from wielding two powers, and there was active consideration on what effects that would have on Rosharran society going forward - thus the Surge-pairs. Odium doesn't care about any of that - his people are already committed to him, and they're probably not changing much because of their Cognitive Shadow nature.

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/26/2019 at 8:29 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

What I meant by Odium "copying" the Rosharan version Surgebinding, I mean that the Fused's magic system is extremely similar or identical to the modern Rosharan KR system (obviously one of the Surges is missing), and distinct from the Ashyn versions.  

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case. The Fused 'order' that uses Gravitation seems to work very similarly to the KR version of that Surge, and probably Abrasion also (though we have only very brief mentions of that one), but what about the Fused that grow Shardplate-like carapace? That seems pretty different from KR abilities (maybe a warped version of Progression or Tension?)

Due to the 9 Orders thing, I really do think the Fused are using the Braize magic system, not a copy of Rosharan Surgebinding.

[+TheFoxQR]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case. The Fused 'order' that uses Gravitation seems to work very similarly to the KR version of that Surge, and probably Abrasion also (though we have only very brief mentions of that one), but what about the Fused that grow Shardplate-like carapace? That seems pretty different from KR abilities (maybe a warped version of Progression or Tension?)

Due to the 9 Orders thing, I really do think the Fused are using the Braize magic system, not a copy of Rosharan Surgebinding.

au contraire, I discuss this here.

It seems the Fused are using Honor's system - the idea of binding surges by infusions in the spiritweb. Except, theirs was granted to them by Odium, and comes with all the benefits and pitfalls of his mentality.

[Karger he/him]

12 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

 

au contraire, I discuss this here.

It seems the Fused are using Honor's system - the idea of binding surges by infusions in the spiritweb. Except, theirs was granted to them by Odium, and comes with all the benefits and pitfalls of his mentality.

Too much of that is theoretical for me to except.  Perhaps I am just picky if so sorry.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Karger

[+TheFoxQR]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Too much of that is theoretical for me to except.  Perhaps I am just picky if so sorry.

That's sort of the point of a discussion, you're supposed to pick it apart. So don't worry about it.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, TheFoxQR said:

That's sort of the point of a discussion, you're supposed to pick it apart. So don't worry about it.

Right but what I am saying is that you are pilling up too much uncertainty.  I may with some convincing be able to agree to your first theory provisionally but I don't think I can use that provisional acceptance to support another theory on top of that.

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

au contraire, I discuss this here.

It seems the Fused are using Honor's system - the idea of binding surges by infusions in the spiritweb. Except, theirs was granted to them by Odium, and comes with all the benefits and pitfalls of his mentality.

Eh, I disagree. I don't think the Listener bonds with normal spren, voidspren (forms of power), or Fused have anything to do with Honor at all.

Infusions into the spiritweb is the normal way most magic systems work... foreign Investiture has to get in somehow (mist-snapping or ancestral use of Lerasium for Allomancy, spiking in a piece of foreign spiritweb for Hemalurgy, the Shaod for AonDor, buying or accepting Breaths for Awakening*). That's not specifically of Honor.

And the native spren bonding on Roshar isn't necessarily of Honor either, any more than the Seon bonding on Sel. Natural spren bonds on Roshar are core to how the Listeners/Singers work, and they existed before Honor showed up.

*Although Breaths are a bit more Physical Realm than most Investiture, they don't really seem to be part of your spiritweb.

[+TheFoxQR]

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Eh, I disagree. I don't think the Listener bonds with normal spren, voidspren (forms of power), or Fused have anything to do with Honor at all.

I literally mention in the post I linked that I don't think Listener Forms and spren bonds have anything to do with Honor, and propose the idea that they are of Cultivation instead. I literally, explicitly, said that. I even put it in a Venn Diagram.

Where we do disagree is the Fused, and I'm proposing the idea that the Fused and Knights Radiant are both one step removed from the Heralds. The Fused because they're Herald-like in every sense but one - their Surgebinding uses different surge-pairs and is powered by Odium.

The Knights Radiant because they use the same surge-pairs and also power them by stormlight, but do so by bonding spren instead, and this doesn't make them cognitive shadows.

[Calderis he/him]

The surgebinding we know on Roshar, and the Surges used on and to destroy Ashyn were similar... But not the same system. 

Quote

Shardbound

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 7/26/2019 at 5:55 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Wait, do we know a surge is missing from Fused Surgebinding? Even if the KR had no Bondsmiths, the Stonewards and Windrunners would each have 1 of the 2 "unused" surges there. They wouldn't get the same Resonance, sure, but all 10 surges could still be used with as few as 5 orders, if there was no overlap and each order used 2 surges.

Is that the question, then? 

That's a good question. We know they have 9 orders, we don't know that a power is missing. The voidbinding chart has 10 powers.I assume the two orders in the ruby in the middle are combined into one order. It may be less that one is "missing" and more that two are combined into one. 

KR access their powers through the ideal system (after they bond a spren) which combines two Shards. 

Honor: Swear oaths and stick to them. 

Cultivation: You don't get to swear them all at once. There is a progression and only when a person has grown / is "ready" to say the next ideal do they gain more powers. 

Whatever the Fused are doing is accessed through Odium and may be the reason each order seems to only have one, but the chart shows the powers going to multiple orders.  

I don't know why 2 Shards = 2 Powers .. 1 Shard = 1 Power (1 Like = 1 Respect) on Roshar. It doesn't seem to work this way in other systems in the Cosmere. 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

35 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's a good question. We know they have 9 orders, we don't know that a power is missing. The voidbinding chart has 10 powers.I assume the two orders in the ruby in the middle are combined into one order. It may be less that one is "missing" and more that two are combined into one. 

<snipped picture>

KR access their powers through the ideal system (after they bond a spren) which combines two Shards. 

Honor: Swear oaths and stick to them. 

Cultivation: You don't get to swear them all at once. There is a progression and only when a person has grown / is "ready" to say the next ideal do they gain more powers. 

Whatever the Fused are doing is accessed through Odium and may be the reason each order seems to only have one, but the chart shows the powers going to multiple orders.  

I don't know why 2 Shards = 2 Powers .. 1 Shard = 1 Power (1 Like = 1 Respect) on Roshar. It doesn't seem to work this way in other systems in the Cosmere. 

It's also worth noting that the two orders in the center gem do NOT have lines connecting to the equivalent voids of Tension, Adhesion, Progression, and Illumination. Interesting...

[+TheFoxQR]

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's a good question. We know they have 9 orders, we don't know that a power is missing. The voidbinding chart has 10 powers.I assume the two orders in the ruby in the middle are combined into one order. It may be less that one is "missing" and more that two are combined into one. 

KR access their powers through the ideal system (after they bond a spren) which combines two Shards. 

Honor: Swear oaths and stick to them. 

Cultivation: You don't get to swear them all at once. There is a progression and only when a person has grown / is "ready" to say the next ideal do they gain more powers. 

Whatever the Fused are doing is accessed through Odium and may be the reason each order seems to only have one, but the chart shows the powers going to multiple orders.  

I don't know why 2 Shards = 2 Powers .. 1 Shard = 1 Power (1 Like = 1 Respect) on Roshar. It doesn't seem to work this way in other systems in the Cosmere. 

The Voidbinding Chart is not indicative of the Fused system, that has been established in this very thread, I think.

The Fused system and the Surgebinding chart are both riffing on the system used by the Heralds. The Voidbinding chart is something separate entirely.

If you want to discuss the systems, then maybe here would be a better idea: 

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by TheFoxQR

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah Voidbinding is something else.

On 7/28/2019 at 7:00 PM, TheFoxQR said:

I literally mention in the post I linked that I don't think Listener Forms and spren bonds have anything to do with Honor, and propose the idea that they are of Cultivation instead. I literally, explicitly, said that. I even put it in a Venn Diagram.

Yeah I guess I misread, sorry. But I don't think they are of Cultivation either - they are almost certainly pre-Shattering.

8 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

 

I don't know why 2 Shards = 2 Powers .. 1 Shard = 1 Power (1 Like = 1 Respect) on Roshar. It doesn't seem to work this way in other systems in the Cosmere. 

 

It's not really... the original Rosharan Surgebinding with the Heralds and Honorblades was all-Honor, with no Cultivation-containing spren, but still had paired powers.

5 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

The Voidbinding Chart is not indicative of the Fused system,

Yeah, Voidbinding seems to be what Renarin is doing with his visions (although it's somehow not 'classic' Voidbinding, probably because he powers it with Stormlight rather than Voidlight).

 

Quote

The Fused system and the Surgebinding chart are both riffing on the system used by the Heralds. The Voidbinding chart is something separate entirely.

I'd disagree there - since the Fused have 9 Orders rather than 10, they are more likely using the Braize "Surgebinding" system, similar-but-not-identical to the Herald-derived Rosharan kind (and the ancient Ashyn kind).

Voidbinding is Rosharan, since it has 10 symbols on its chart. It's probably Odium's hack of Rosharan (Herald-derived) Surgebinding, since Odium isn't truly Invested in Roshar (so probably hasn't formed a real "balance magic" in the way Feruchemy is Ruin/Preservation).