the shards in relation to the basic allomantic metals

[stormbourne]

Going through the know shards and seeing which base metal they most align with. Why base metals? because each shard has a divine metal that is specifically theirs p.s. sorry for the belittlement but i can't be arsed to explain this ten times in the comments

what i have so far:

Edited July 20, 2019 by stormbourne

[imriel452]

So how have you come up with this theory? Why base metals- especially when Ruin has Atium, and Preservation has Lerasium?

Please- belittle me and explain this theory in more detail?

[stormbourne]

15 minutes ago, imriel452 said:

So how have you come up with this theory? Why base metals- especially when Ruin has Atium, and Preservation has Lerasium?

Please- belittle me and explain this theory in more detail?

this theory comes from presentations "hint" in the 16 metals my guess is that he based them on the 16 shards and as such every shard has a allomantic metal and a divine metal one comes from the shards mere existence and the other came from preservation trying (really badly) to alert people/vin

[Elegy he/him]

There's this WOB:

Quote

Stormgate

Can the 16 Shards be mapped onto the chart of Allomantic metals? i.e. does each Shard have a corresponding Allomantic metal?

Brandon Sanderson

The Shards were first. The metals are in a way a...further division on an established pattern.

General Twitter 2016 (Feb. 20, 2016)

So there is a possibility that the Shards could be categorized in the same way as the allomantic metals - 4 physical, 4 cognitive, 4 spiritual, 4 temporal -, since the allomantic metals followed a pattern that was previously established by the Shards. That said, I don't think the metals are "based" on the Shards, or "their" metals in any way. They just take a similar place in a similar pattern. This is particularly apparent in the fact that every allomantic metal has an opposite, while not all Shards have a specific opposite. So, at the most, it's the general concept of 16 being divided into 4 sub-sets of the same kind of pattern (... and which Shards fit into which sub-set is another topic).

[stormbourne]

24 minutes ago, Elegy said:

There's this WOB:

So there is a possibility that the Shards could be categorized in the same way as the allomantic metals - 4 physical, 4 cognitive, 4 spiritual, 4 temporal -, since the allomantic metals followed a pattern that was previously established by the Shards. That said, I don't think the metals are "based" on the Shards, or "their" metals in any way. They just take a similar place in a similar pattern. This is particularly apparent in the fact that every allomantic metal has an opposite, while not all Shards have a specific opposite. So, at the most, it's the general concept of 16 being divided into 4 sub-sets of the same kind of pattern (... and which Shards fit into which sub-set is another topic).

Okay so based off what has been said I think cultivation is a temporal shard as it said that she can see better and the visions given to dalinar when he met her, maybe bendalloy, and odium is brass as he takes emotions from everyone he rules over with the exception the thrill which is another mystery that needs unravelling

Edited July 11, 2019 by stormbourne

[Elegy he/him]

27 minutes ago, stormbourne said:

Okay so based off what has been said I think cultivation is a temporal shard as it said that she can see better and the visions given to dalinar when he met her, maybe bendalloy, and odium is brass as he takes emotions from everyone he rules over with the exception the thrill which is another mystery that needs unravelling

Like I said, I don't believe the metals (and/or their allomantic effects) have specific according Shards. So parallels like those two would only be tangentally related each other.

Although it's very likely that Odium would be a "spiritual" Shard since his Intent deals with emotion and a sort of dis-Connection, which are things that happen in the Spiritual Realm. Devotion seems very spiritual as well.

[stormbourne]

1 minute ago, Elegy said:

Like I said, I don't believe the metals (and/or their allomantic effects) have specific according Shards. So parallels like those two would only be tangentally related each other.

Although it's very likely that Odium would be a "spiritual" Shard since his Intent deals with emotion and a sort of dis-Connection, which are things that happen in the Spiritual Realm. Devotion seems very spiritual as well.

Dominion would be physical

[Elegy he/him]

I'd see Dominion as cognitive since the act of owning something/ruling over something presumes the cognitive process of claiming it. Ruin and Preservation seem to be the best two guesses for physical as of now, but there's an argument to be made for them being temporal (although I, personally) believe the former.

However, as with most of these kind of things in the cosmere, we'll probably never get definite answers. Brandon will probably always insist that several interpretations are possible and different scholars in-world disagree.

(Edit: Not that that stops us!)

Edited July 11, 2019 by Elegy

[Quantus he/him]

Im going to go ahead and chime in with my favorite theory here (ignore me if you've heard it). The WOB that @Elegy posted is actually what I consider one of the stronger supports for it. The theory is that all the 16 shards can be mapped to a 4x4 chart just like the allomantic metals, with similar Quadrants (which I defined as sort of a combination of the Allomantic and Feruchemical charts).  So there are four quadrants: Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual, and Temporal.  Each quadrant can be further subdivided along axis of Inward/Outward and Increase/Decrease, more or less like the Push/Pull, Internal/External subdivisions of the Metallic Arts.  What it means is that each shard has an underlying definition based on those three pieces of information, and the rest is all the Vessel's interpretation of the leaning imparted by the shard.  So Ruin is (by my best guess) The Outward Decreasing Physical who wants Everything Else to Stop Existing Physically; Preservation by comparison is the is the Outward Decreasing Temporal who wants Everything Else to stop Changing.  This also works with the Stormlight theory about Unity, on the logic that Unity and Honor have the same Core (Increase You Own Spiritual Connections) and the difference is between Tanavast's one-on-one Oaths focus while Dalinar is taking a much more group/Community outlook.  This room for vessel interpretation is why the Shards don't innately all have 1-to-1 paired Opposites, because you can flip each of them across multiple axis, and the subtleties of their vessel interpretation is where they become compatible or not.  

So if you assume all that Tinfoil is more or less accurate, you can map the Allomantic Metals to various shards.  It may not have any actual relevance in-world, and your pairings are only as good as you guess on where the Shards should fall on the chart, with a lot different assignments that seem logical.  Mine fall out this way:

Ruin = Outward Decreasing Physical = Iron
Autonomy = Inward Decreasing Cognitive = Copper
Dominion = Outward Decreasing Cognitive = Brass
Endowment = Outward Increasing Cognitive = Zinc
Devotion = Outward Increasing Spiritual = Nicrosil
Honor = Inward Increasing Spiritual = Duralumin
Odium = Outward Decreasing Spiritual = Chromium
Ambition = Inward Increasing Temporal = Electrum
Cultivation = Outward Increasing Temporal = Bendalloy
Preservation = Outward Decreasing Temporal = Cadmium

 

(Id give a link to my original Reddit post, but reddit appears to be down for the moment).  

[stormbourne]

this i my best guess looking at the effects of the metals and lining them up with what we have seen shards do

[Quantus he/him]

2 minutes ago, stormbourne said:

this i my best guess looking at the effects of the metals and lining them up with what we have seen shards do

If you'r looking purely at effects, I think I'd call Preservation Gold, since allomantically it's focused on the Past, and feruchemcially it basically restores the Physical to match the Spiritual Truth.  I might put Ambition on Bendalloy, since Ambition is pretty fundamental about a Better (personal) Future; Cultivation fits ok for the same reason, thought electrum would work for her too.   Based on his own self-definition in Stormlight, I'd call Odium Zinc before Brass.  

[stormbourne]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

If you'r looking purely at effects, I think I'd call Preservation Gold, since allomantically it's focused on the Past, and feruchemcially it basically restores the Physical to match the Spiritual Truth.  I might put Ambition on Bendalloy, since Ambition is pretty fundamental about a Better (personal) Future; Cultivation fits ok for the same reason, thought electrum would work for her too.   Based on his own self-definition in Stormlight, I'd call Odium Zinc before Brass.  

i wouldn't call odium zinc as it's only the thrill that riots people emotions and as well as the songs state odium is the void consuming all emotion. i say that cultivation is bendalloy as her forest is growing so fast that you can hear it

[Quantus he/him]

27 minutes ago, stormbourne said:

i wouldn't call odium zinc as it's only the thrill that riots people emotions and as well as the songs state odium is the void consuming all emotion. i say that cultivation is bendalloy as her forest is growing so fast that you can hear it

The Heart of the Revel, at least, is also stirring emotions.  But I was thinking more of the fact that Rayse defines himself as "Passion" rather than Odium, which would make him the OG Rioter, but not at all Soothing. As far as Cultivations's forest, I was thinking of that as more just part of the influence of the Spren in the area causing things to rustle and grow erratically, the same way Wyndle moves about by growing temporary Vines.  

[cometaryorbit]

18 hours ago, Elegy said:

 This is particularly apparent in the fact that every allomantic metal has an opposite, while not all Shards have a specific opposite. So, at the most, it's the general concept of 16 being divided into 4 sub-sets of the same kind of pattern (... and which Shards fit into which sub-set is another topic).

While I don't think there is a straightforward one-to-one Shard-to-metal correspondence, the same metal quadrants apply to the other Metallic Arts, where the opposites don't really hold.

My real issue with it is the idea of "physical" and "temporal" Shards which don't really seem to fit the spaceless, timeless nature of the Spiritual Realm well. I think that WOB does imply that the 16 Shards split into four quadrants, but I don't think those quadrants are the same "themes" as the metal quadrants.

Within the quadrants, it might be a simple set of four Shards sharing a common theme, they might pair the way metals do...

Or they might even pair "both ways" creating a square pattern... eg...

Honor --- Dominion

|                    |

Odium --- Devotion

Honor + Odium = Justice or (righteous/divine) Wrath

Devotion / Odium (straightforward opposites)

Dominion + Devotion = Unity

Honor + Dominion = Law or Kingship

[Quantus he/him]

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

While I don't think there is a straightforward one-to-one Shard-to-metal correspondence, the same metal quadrants apply to the other Metallic Arts, where the opposites don't really hold.

My real issue with it is the idea of "physical" and "temporal" Shards which don't really seem to fit the spaceless, timeless nature of the Spiritual Realm well. I think that WOB does imply that the 16 Shards split into four quadrants, but I don't think those quadrants are the same "themes" as the metal quadrants.

Within the quadrants, it might be a simple set of four Shards sharing a common theme, they might pair the way metals do...

Or they might even pair "both ways" creating a square pattern... eg...

Honor --- Dominion

|                    |

Odium --- Devotion

Honor + Odium = Justice or (righteous/divine) Wrath

Devotion / Odium (straightforward opposites)

Dominion + Devotion = Unity

Honor + Dominion = Law or Kingship

For what it's worth, Time does exist in the Spiritual Realm, it's just easier to view as a whole.  But the ever-moving horizon of the Now has significance, insofar as how it interacts with the other two Realms, it's the point where possibility solidified into reality.  It's why actual Time Travel is impossible in the Cosmere even for the Shards that exist mostly in the Spiritual.  That's where I think the Temporal shards come into play, there are a few who's Intents (Preservation, Cultivation, Ambition, arguably Ruin) are fundamentally defined by Temporal Change.  Ambition is by definition a desire for Change, Preservation is a resistance to it, Cultivation is all about the Before&After, etc.  You can have Honor or Devotion as a static thing, but those others just cannot exist without a temporal component.  

[stormbourne]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

For what it's worth, Time does exist in the Spiritual Realm, it's just easier to view as a whole.  But the ever-moving horizon of the Now has significance, insofar as how it interacts with the other two Realms, it's the point where possibility solidified into reality.  It's why actual Time Travel is impossible in the Cosmere even for the Shards that exist mostly in the Spiritual.  That's where I think the Temporal shards come into play, there are a few who's Intents (Preservation, Cultivation, Ambition, arguably Ruin) are fundamentally defined by Temporal Change.  Ambition is by definition a desire for Change, Preservation is a resistance to it, Cultivation is all about the Before&After, etc.  You can have Honor or Devotion as a static thing, but those others just cannot exist without a temporal component.  

ambition is the desire to achieve a specific goal regardless of hardship or set back change is merely a side effect

[Quantus he/him]

26 minutes ago, stormbourne said:

ambition is the desire to achieve a specific goal regardless of hardship or set back change is merely a side effect

Id argue that the Desire you speak of is specifically trying to achieve something that is not currently a reality.  It's perpetually more, it's the next goal, the next achievement and Increase of Self; it reaches a state of satisfaction.  Ambition requires Change, because it is fundamentally a dissatisfaction with the whatever the current state is. 

At least as compared to other shards like Devotion or Dominion (or arguably Honor) that are theoretically achievable states.  

[stormbourne]

having a look at all three metallic arts i have updated my assumptions

 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

I see your shard-to-metal chart and Rayse (hah) you my own interpretation!

one of the big differences in mine is that I chose to put Ambition in the Physical category. My reasoning for this is because Ambition is a desire to Increase the amount of "stuff" you have, you aspire to gain "something" from being ambitious. Now, that's not to say I don't understand putting Ambition in the Temporal quadrant, however... It strikes me more as an increase to physical possessions, almost like "greed" under a different name.

(also if the Survival Shard was on this chart it would be above Preservation, in the Inward Decreasing Temporal spot)

[stormbourne]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I see your shard-to-metal chart and Rayse (hah) you my own interpretation!

one of the big differences in mine is that I chose to put Ambition in the Physical category. My reasoning for this is because Ambition is a desire to Increase the amount of "stuff" you have, you aspire to gain "something" from being ambitious. Now, that's not to say I don't understand putting Ambition in the Temporal quadrant, however... It strikes me more as an increase to physical possessions, almost like "greed" under a different name.

(also if the Survival Shard was on this chart it would be above Preservation, in the Inward Decreasing Temporal spot)

nice but i would say the greed is a corrupted ambition, so greed is ambition but not the other way round

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

10 hours ago, stormbourne said:

nice but i would say the greed is a corrupted ambition, so greed is ambition but not the other way round

okay, fair enough. Maybe a true "Greed" intent shard would be the merging of Ambition and... Oh, hmm... Dominion?

Here, real quick, all of y'all.

Is Ambition a Temporal or Physical shard? Quote this and add your response!! lol. But seriously I do want to know what people think. I personally like ambition as a Physical shard in part due to it just being a new interpretation... But again, I can see the logic of it being Increasing Inward Temporal.

[stormbourne]

41 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

okay, fair enough. Maybe a true "Greed" intent shard would be the merging of Ambition and... Oh, hmm... Dominion?

Here, real quick, all of y'all.

Is Ambition a Temporal or Physical shard? Quote this and add your response!! lol. But seriously I do want to know what people think. I personally like ambition as a Physical shard in part due to it just being a new interpretation... But again, I can see the logic of it being Increasing Inward Temporal.

i think it's temporal  manly due to Feruchemy storing determination a synonym of Ambition

Edited July 13, 2019 by stormbourne

[Elegy he/him]

Google gives me the following definitions, which I wholeheartedly agree with:

Quote

ambition

/amˈbɪʃ(ə)n/

• a strong desire to do or achieve something.

• desire and determination to achieve success.

None of that is synonymous with greed or is of a distinctly physical nature, I'd say. After all, an ambitious athlete doesn't want to win competitions for the physical medals, they're hardly worth anything. If anything, I think that physical is the only one that can be explicitly excluded as a possibility. Although I see why you'd think that Ambition has something to do with greed, I guess.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Okay, fine, you guys win, I'll put ambition back in the Increasing Inward Temporal spot. I also made a second version of the chart showing what shards are on what Shardworlds and which ones are Splintered.

 

Funny enough, Ambition is the one shard that isn't really on a Shardworld. Yes, part of her Investiture was splintered off onto Threnody, but Ambition was later splintered away from Threnody.

[stormbourne]

On 12/07/2019 at 9:57 PM, stormbourne said:

having a look at all three metallic arts i have updated my assumptions

updated green is certain, yellow uncertain, red highly uncertain

Edited July 18, 2019 by stormbourne