[Baseless theory / Question] The Shards and their relations to others acting according to their intents

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

This is a somewhat baseless theory (sort of ...) and question - the question being what your opinion on the likelihood, or, if true, your reaction to this idea. The idea is, due to the relation between the cognitive realm and shards, that sufficient belief in a shard, or performing actions associated with the shard, strengthens it. Conversely, actions which break or go against the shards intent could weaken it - for example, Odium getting people to hate one another and fight a war to avenge current or past wrongs with the desire less for justice and more for harming others would fuel him and make him power powerful, or more free to use that power, while conversely getting those fighting to violate the basic tenants of honour, and breaking down the works of others, would weaken both Honour and Cultivation, or interfering with their abilities to use their powers, at least over those who go against them.

 

Support for this comes from a few directions, one of which is the similarities in the cosmere between the cognitive realms belief based structure, and similar systems in the works of Terry Pratchett, David Eddings, and certain wargames. Belief in those settings can be used to fuel or make beings that embody that belief and have power due to it, with insufficient belief once one is made weakening them. While the shards were note made from belief (unless the sixteen members and Hoid and anyone else present performed the shattering by believing the power would shatter ... which isn't entirely unlikely actually ...) they still have a presence in all three of the cosmere's realms, possibly more directly in the cognitive than the physical, and spren and other splinters, such as those within Returned, are susceptible to the beliefs of the people around them, some spren themselves originating from small packets of power shaped by the beliefs of the minds on Roshar.

Objections to this idea can include their being a finite amount of investiture available, with each particle polarised to the property of its progenitor piece, and so changing alignments is impossible without distorting the balance in the cosmere - after all, where would this extra investiture come from? However, just because a shard is gaining more power doesn't mean it has increased in investiture volume - it could also relate to how effectively they can use the power they have, or power associated with them elsewhere in the cosmere - physical, cognitive, or spiritual realm - being added to them or brought to their attention to use. It could even just be making the cognitive landscape more amiable for them to further use their powers while weakening the others - like 

Another argument could be that, for example, in Mistborn when Ruin was destroying the world or the battles were being fought, he didn't gain more power. However, just because there was a lot of ruining occuring doesn't mean that an equal amount of preserving wasn't also happening, people protecting others, for example, or the amount provided to Ruin was, while non-zero, still less than what could accurately be measured in their conflict.

 

So, what do you think? Do you think this is likely, and if it does or does not turn out to be true, what would your opinion on the implications be then?

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

So, what do you think? Do you think this is likely, and if it does or does not turn out to be true, what would your opinion on the implications be then?

I think he sort of have it backwards.  A shard can only act according to its intent ie Odium can only make people angry he can't make them happy for example(thats why Kaladin says that Odium will never give Amaram peace).  I see no reason though why angry people would make Odium stronger although he probably does like it when people are angry.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think he sort of have it backwards.  A shard can only act according to its intent ie Odium can only make people angry he can't make them happy for example(thats why Kaladin says that Odium will never give Amaram peace).  I see no reason though why angry people would make Odium stronger although he probably does like it when people are angry.

It need not be a one way process :-P power can flow both ways

Also, Odium doesn't just have to make people angry - he also drains away feelings and pain, as well as thinking he more accurately is passion. Ruin, despite being Ruin, can also build things up, provided they are then used to knock things down. Shards are driven to act a certain way, but they can step outside of that with effort, or side step a more direct path (as in, just destroying for Ruin) in order to better achieve that goal (making agents which have stronger powers so that they can destroy).

[RShara she/her]

I don't think people's beliefs affect the power of a Shard. A Shard's power is investiture, and that is, as far as we've seen, a set amount for each Shard, divided up evenly among the 16 at the Shattering. At most, acting in a way that aligns you to the intent of that Shard makes it easier for that Shard to influence you, or ties you more closely to that Shard. The latter being not particularly important unless you're trying to take up the power of that Shard or trying to attract the attention of it/its Splinters/etc or something along those lines.

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Also, Odium doesn't just have to make people angry - he also drains away feelings and pain, as well as thinking he more accurately is passion.

He makes people Odious.  Its the kind of angry that allows you to ignore pain and go after a goal at any cost.  The kind of angry that dominates everything else and takes away all other feelings.  Its the kind of angry that does not go away.  He is also definitely not passion whatever he says. 

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Ruin, despite being Ruin, can also build things up, provided they are then used to knock things down.

Ruin is entropy.  He can only increase the disorder of a system.  This might take the initial form of building but it does not increase stability.

 

A vessel can act differently but that takes imminence strength of will.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

ItIt seems to me that the practitioners of the magic systems created by a Shard in the vicinity of a particular place in the Physical Realm would gain the most benefits from actions that are in accordance with the Shard. (Act with Honor and Honor will aid you). The benefits to the Shard in question seem minimal and do not relate to the power it can bring to bear. However it could be said that the benefits come from these practitioners depending on the goal of the Shard. From my observations Shards are generally stalemated by other Shards due to promises made between them that they cannot break or them holding an equal amount of power. Direct Shardic clashes result in injuries that cannot heal.

Likely the only real way for a Shard to accomplish it's goals with little risk to their person is to work through sapient agents. Empower them and give them instructions to carry out their will. They can empower directly like Honor and the Heralds or govern the transfer through a set of predetermined rituals like the magics on Sel. The instructions can be specific or indirect. But on some level every magic user in the Cosmere goes through this process, and it's mostly a crapshoot as the Shards can't strip away what they've granted. It's what Sazed does with Wax, what Cultivation does and what Odium attempts to do with Dalinar. It's what Edgli does for Lightsong. Maybe the phrase 'Act with Honor and Honor will aid you' is an incomplete statement. The rest of it should read 'because it's in Honor's best interest to so'.

One strange implecation of this is that Shards seem to have goals regardless of whether or not they have a vessel. A vessel less Shard has two goals as far as I can tell. To proliferate by granting power to those who align with the Intent of the Shard. Next, to acquire and possibly groom a new vessel. Once they get a Vessel then they get more complex goals like killing all other Shards or building a planet. Strangely, the first goal never seems to go away.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[not an Evil Librarian]

8 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Ruin, despite being Ruin, can also build things up, provided they are then used to knock things down. 

Not necessarily. Ruin can allow something to be built if he knows that it will knock two things down. he can only build things up with the help of preservation. Alone, Ruin can make no action aside from breaking stuff down. 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@RShara I see where you are coming from - I did address this point in the post itself. But what about the other points in the topic, such as people acting or behaving in a certain way opening up access to power in the spiritual realm to a shard that it didn't have access to before, as Brandon has noted shards can do in the physical realm, with regards to shards finding more of their investiture in the physical by reaching out in space, as Autonomy does? Do you therefor disagree with the second possibility, that belief could affect the cognitive landscape in a way that makes the application of a shard's power easier or more difficult, or belief to be a sharpening or blunting effect on the power of a shard?

@Karger I need to recheck, but didn't Dalinar experience peace when he met Odium, the golden light, or was that confirmed to be from something else? Also, on that topic of what shards can do, the ability of Vin as Preservation to destroy something in order to Preserve - which I think we were both thinking of with regards to acting outside of the intent - is still an example of shards being able to act outside their intent, to be free. As Brandon had noted, shards are not restricted to only affecting things related to their intent, or else they would be too limited, with the intent rather acting as a guiding influence on their minds, a compulsion they can push against but in no way restricting, for example, Devotion when she was still alive from hypothetically making something even if her intent was about a behaviour. Either way this is unrelated to the main issue, as I am not arguing belief could change a shard, only affect how well it can use its abilities, even if only on those acting in a certain way.

@Bigmikey357 I fully agree with what you are saying on all counts. I do wonder, however, if belief from a large group could still have some influence, if only on that group, though the way you describe it seems to lean more to connection than to belief, though I suppose belief can make connections, as Spook showed. With regards to the shards, I think Sazed gave an accurate summary in that the power knows the best way to use its power is to have a mind to direct it, as Preservation for example recognises that just trying to enforce stability without some guide is counterproductive. The shard might find a local maximum result by just applying itself without intelligence, but with intelligence it could in theory find a global maximum.

@not an Evil Librarian That was the very quote I was referencing, you don't need to quote it back at me :-P hemalurgy, however, is still building something up even if it is also destroying something, as well as his attempts to build Vin up - Ruin doesn't act mindlessly for destruction, but instead uses intelligence, sometimes climbing the proverbial hills, up being constructive acts where as the power itself wants to go down into the valleys, where down is the destructive ones, knowing that a deeper valley across the plains - a more complete destruction - can be reached if you are willing to actively build for a while before destroying. The fastest way to your destination isn't always as the crow flies if there is a massive wall in the way, but rather one needs to go around it, or even backtrack, to find the way there.