Shallan's next truth

[Gderu]

Brandon has previously said that Shallan is one step ahead of Kaladin in terms of oaths. Because Kaladin is on his third one, Shallan must be on her fourth, which means she only had one remaining.

 

So what could that truth be? I have picked up on two hints:

When descending down the stairs to fight Re-shephir, she thinks:

"The sound of their footsteps vanished into the void. Soon they were alone with the timeless, patient darkness. The light of the sphere lanterns the bridgemen carried didn’t seem to stretch far in that pit. It reminded Shallan of the mausoleum carved into the hill near her manor, where ancient Davar family members had been Soulcast to statues.

Her father's body hadn't been placed there. They had lacked the funds to pay for a soulcaster-and besides, they'd wanted to pretend he was alive. She and her brothers had burned the body, as the darkeyes did.

Pain..."

 

Notice how she thought about the darkness in the presence of an unmade, that will be important later.

 

The other definitive clue that I've seen is her thinking this in Kholinar, after finding out that she did more harm than good as Veil.

"Darkness. A candle snuffed out. A scream cut off. With nothing to see, her mind provided images."

This is then followed by descriptions of other horrible things that happened to her, like killing her mother and father, and killing Tyn.

Since we haven't seen anything like this from her yet, this must be something new. So what could this be?

 

Notice that in the second clue, she thought about how there was darkness all around and that she couldn't see, just like what happened in the stairs down to Re-shephir. This seems to hint that the truth is related to an unmade. I think that this probable means that her last truth relates to the unmade that was said to be influencing her home. I think that she stumbled upon the unmade somehow, perhaps in the mausoleum, and that the experience scarred her so much that she repressed it, which started the whole thing. Perhaps she followed someone in there and the unmade didn't notice her but did notice the person she was following, which is why she survived it. That sounds like a really creepy scene.

What do you think?

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Gderu

[Karger he/him]

23 minutes ago, Gderu said:

Brandon has previously said that Shallan is one step ahead of Kaladin in terms of oaths. Because Kaladin is on his third one, Shallan must be on her fourth, which means she only had one remaining.

First of all I don't think lightweaver oaths work like that.  Shallan is a human being her truths will change constantly and as such I don't think she will ever realy be able to stop swearing them.  As to her next truth.  I think it is going to have to do with intentions.  She has admitted what she has done but she has not realy admitted why and I don't think she knows what it is going to mean to her. 

[Calyx]

My thinking is that it will be something along the lines of what Wit tells her in "The Girl Who Stood Up" - essentially that she can still be a good person despite the things that she has done (i.e. murder) and the failures that she's had (i.e. causing murder).

[Gderu]

I'm not so sure about your theory. So far, all her truths have been about things that have happened to her or that she has done. None have been about theoretical stuff like her needing to accept that she isn't at fault for what happened. I don't think your theory fits that pattern.

Besides that, the details I've noticed definitely mean something. Brandon wouldn't have just added them for no reason. If your theory is true, that would mean that she won't have any more big truths, which would be a problem. Also, she still attracted pattern in her youth. Something happened there that we don't know of yet. That has to be another truth. Because she only had on more left, it must be something about her past.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Gderu

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

None have been about theoretical stuff like her needing to accept that she isn't at fault for what happened. I don't think your theory fits that pattern.

Her last truth was "I can be happy."  That is not about either what she has done nor what has happened to her.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Her last truth was "I can be happy."  That is not about either what she has done nor what has happened to her.

That wasn't a Truth, though it may be a step on the way to her last Truth.

[Karger he/him]

7 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

That wasn't a Truth, though it may be a step on the way to her last Truth.

How is it not a truth?

[Alderant she/her]

9 hours ago, Gderu said:

Brandon has previously said that Shallan is one step ahead of Kaladin in terms of oaths. Because Kaladin is on his third one, Shallan must be on her fourth, which means she only had one remaining.

 

So what could that truth be? I have picked up on two hints:

When descending down the stairs to fight Re-shephir, she thinks:

"The sound of their footsteps vanished into the void. Soon they were alone with the timeless, patient darkness. The light of the sphere lanterns the bridgemen carried didn’t seem to stretch far in that pit. It reminded Shallan of the mausoleum carved into the hill near her manor, where ancient Davar family members had been Soulcast to statues.

Her father's body hadn't been placed there. They had lacked the funds to pay for a soulcaster-and besides, they'd wanted to pretend he was alive. She and her brothers had burned the body, as the darkeyes did.

Pain..."

 

Notice how she thought about the darkness in the presence of an unmade, that will be important later.

 

The other definitive clue that I've seen is her thinking this in Kholinar, after finding out that she did more harm than good as Veil.

"Darkness. A candle snuffed out. A scream cut off. With nothing to see, her mind provided images."

This is then followed by descriptions of other horrible things that happened to her, like killing her mother and father, and killing Tyn.

Since we haven't seen anything like this from her yet, this must be something new. So what could this be?

 

Notice that in the second clue, she thought about how there was darkness all around and that she couldn't see, just like what happened in the stairs down to Re-shephir. This seems to hint that the truth is related to an unmade. I think that this probable means that her last truth relates to the unmade that was said to be influencing her home. I think that she stumbled upon the unmade somehow, perhaps in the mausoleum, and that the experience scarred her so much that she repressed it, which started the whole thing. Perhaps she followed someone in there and the unmade didn't notice her but did notice the person she was following, which is why she survived it. That sounds like a really creepy scene.

What do you think?

 

@Gderu it's nice to see someone taking an interest in Shallan! If there's one thing that draws me out of the woodwork, it's discussion about my favorite character.

That said, there are a couple of misconceptions here in the thread that I'd like to clear up. Keep in mind that I am at heart a character analyst, and not only is Shallan my absolute favorite character in all of literature, but I've done a lot of analyzing of her, specifically, over the course of all three books.

To the first point, the WoB you're referring to is actually from a long time ago (back in 2014) but it does indicate as you surmise that as of the end of WoR, Shallan was at the equivalent level of the fourth oath of knight radiancy. I say equivalent, because Shallan, as a Lightweaver, doesn't speak one Truth per oath level--she speaks a bunch of lesser truths to approach a level (threshold) of self-awareness, which level I gather is achieved with an ultimate Truth or pinnacle-like revelation. And this is absolutely vital to our understanding of Shallan and her progression, because she's absolutely nowhere near ready to speak that fifth-level truth yet.

I know that there are many here who will disagree with me on this point--to that, I will counter you with the fact that Shallan never accepted the Truth she spoke at the end of WoR. Since WoR ended, Shallan hasn't progressed in the slightest. In fact, she's done the opposite. All of her problems in OB stem from the fact that she spends the entire novel finding ways to hide and run away from the Truth she spoke--and all of those Truths spoken up to that point were approaching the threshold she crossed there. By all knowledge we have regarding progression, Shallan should have Shardplate by now. She doesn't, because she's done the Lightweaver equivalent of what Kaladin did in WoR.

Because of this, I think that rather than asking what her fifth threshold might be, the better question would be to ask what steps she needs to take to progress from four to five.

Moving on, you bring up a couple of interesting quotes from the text that I actually think are related to her fifth threshold. Rather than a Truth about the Unmade, my proposal is that her fifth threshold is an admittance that the things that have happened aren't her fault, that she isn't the horrible person she thinks she is. Not only is this more integrally tied into the Lightweaver's progression being tied to self-awareness and understanding, but it's also much more organically related to her plot thus far. Could an Unmade have been a part of why things fell apart? Certainly. There's even a WoB, I believe, that says that there was something abnormal about the state of things in the Davar household. Thus, our proposals are very similar; one of the big differences, however, is in the focus of the Truth itself--being about an Unmade puts the focus on an external source, whereas being about Shallan accepting that there was an external cause and therefore she isn't at fault...that puts the focus on her, which is much more narratively consistent.

8 hours ago, Karger said:

First of all I don't think lightweaver oaths work like that.  Shallan is a human being her truths will change constantly and as such I don't think she will ever realy be able to stop swearing them.  As to her next truth.  I think it is going to have to do with intentions.  She has admitted what she has done but she has not realy admitted why and I don't think she knows what it is going to mean to her.

As I've just explained, this isn't accurate either. The point isn't that her truths change with age, it is that she has a journey of self-awareness and discovery that she is in the process of. The ultimate level, that "fifth" Truth, will be the final one she has to utter because it will be the one that is closest to the heart of not only who she is, but the truth buried beneath the mountain of lies she's lived under.

EDIT: Also, the WoB Gderu referenced directly contradicts the idea that she'll never stop speaking Truths:

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)

(Emphasis added)

1

8 hours ago, Gderu said:

So far, all her truths have been about things that have happened to her or that she has done. None have been about theoretical stuff like her needing to accept that she isn't at fault for what happened.

One of her truths approaching her fourth threshold was "I'm terrified." They're not all about things in her past, just things that are integral to understanding who she is, at the core. And I'll explain why that's the case later if necessary--but "I'm terrified" is a very, very deep admission for Shallan, as the Cryptic says in WoK:

Quote

What are you?

...

"What am I?" she whispered. "I'm terrified."

This is true.

The bedroom transformed around her.

Way of Kings, ch. 45 "Shadesmar", pg. 643

 

Granted, this scene can actually be used to support Karger's argument because at the moment, she actually is terrified! But it goes a lot deeper than that, which is one of the reasons it's a suitable Truth to be mentioned (though not a "threshold" Truth).

1 hour ago, Karger said:

How is it not a truth?

It is a truth (for many people), but it isn't a Truth. I have to be careful how I say this, because this is a tricky passage in the text--but as of yet, "I can be happy" wasn't spoken as a revelatory truth--it was spoken as a means of convincing herself that she was making a good choice. And that makes a huge difference, especially to our dear Unreliable Narrator. The last "Truth" she spoke was at the end of WoR, in the scene where she was forced to remember that Pattern was the shardblade she used to kill her mother. I can go way further down this road, but for the level of discussion here, I feel it's sufficient to say that Shallan's Truths are much deeper concepts--accepting she can be happy is certainly an important development and for once I actually agree with @CrazyRioter when they say that it might be related to that fifth threshold. But Shallan has a lot of work to do before a statement like that can even approach being a Truth with the necessary gravity and power.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Alderant

[Gderu]

I hadn't really thought of Truths that way before, but what you're saying makes sense. After all, there's no guarantee that a lightweaver is supressing exactly five big things. 

I still think that there's something there. Perhaps not her fifth and final Truth, because of what you said, but I think that the hints are definitely there for a reason (the first is a bit shaky, but the second seems real to me).

Thanks for explaining it to me.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

As I've just explained, this isn't accurate either. The point isn't that her truths change with age, it is that she has a journey of self-awareness and discovery that she is in the process of. The ultimate level, that "fifth" Truth, will be the final one she has to utter because it will be the one that is closest to the heart of not only who she is, but the truth buried beneath the mountain of lies she's lived under.

I meant that she will likely become a different enough person that who she is at 60 is significantly different from who she is now.  I find if odd that many people seem to think that the journey for self discovery and understanding are quests that end. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 hours ago, Gderu said:

Brandon has previously said that Shallan is one step ahead of Kaladin in terms of oaths. Because Kaladin is on his third one, Shallan must be on her fourth, which means she only had one remaining.

That sounds fishy. I need to channel Jasnah: Where is her armor?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

That sounds fishy. I need to channel Jasnah: Where is her armor?

Theory is she has access to it, but is repressing it for Reasons.

[Alderant she/her]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That sounds fishy. I need to channel Jasnah: Where is her armor?

Oh, its not fishy. The fact that she doesnt have her armor should tell you something about the state of her progression.

[Pathfinder]

I would need to pull up the scene, but didn't at the battle of thaylenah, Jasnah went up to Shallan with her three illusions (Shallan, Veil, Radiant). In that situation Radiant was wearing armor. Jasnah reaches a hand out to put on Shallan's shoulder, and goes right through it. Radiant then says over here, and then it dissipates? Hmmm, before I comment further I want to pull up the scene, one moment, will edit post when I get the quote

 

so the scene doesn't mention armor but i think earlier radiant was mentioned wearing it. will dig for that one. in the meantime here is the scene I am referring to

Oathbringer page 1178

Jasnah turned toward Radiant, Veil and Shallan. She took Shallan by the arm - but Shallan wavered, then puffed away. Jasnah froze, then turned to Veil.

"Here" Radiant said, tired stumbling to her feet. SHe was the one Jasnah could feel. She blinked away tears "Are you...real?"

 

found it!

Oathbringer page 1149

Another hand took Shallan's on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair. Reserved and cautious. She nodded to Shallan with a steady, determined look.

 

That scene preceded the scene where Jasnah touches a physical Radiant instead of an illusory Shallan. Also Shallan has used Radiant to wield the shardblade version of Pattern so she won't have to consciously face the truth that went with it. So I could see Shallan having sworn the truth for Shardplate, but is again using Radiant to wield it so she does not have to consciously confront it.  

Edited June 7, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

On 6/7/2019 at 10:44 AM, Pathfinder said:

That scene preceded the scene where Jasnah touches a physical Radiant instead of an illusory Shallan. Also Shallan has used Radiant to wield the shardblade version of Pattern so she won't have to consciously face the truth that went with it. So I could see Shallan having sworn the truth for Shardplate, but is again using Radiant to wield it so she does not have to consciously confront it.  

The armor could also be an illusion.  It would be just like Shallan to give one of her personalities something she can't have.

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

The armor could also be an illusion.  It would be just like Shallan to give one of her personalities something she can't have.

Possibly true, but her hand went through the illusory Shallan. Jasnah said radiant was the one she could feel. Admittedly it would be a bit extra to have to include, but for me if the armor was illusory then I would think Jasnah would remark to herself that Radiant was the one she could feel, though her hand phased through the armor. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Possibly true, but her hand went through the illusory Shallan. Jasnah said radiant was the one she could feel. Admittedly it would be a bit extra to have to include, but for me if the armor was illusory then I would think Jasnah would remark to herself that Radiant was the one she could feel, though her hand phased through the armor. 

This still proves nothing as Shallan can make solid illusions.

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

This still proves nothing as Shallan can make solid illusions.

The illusions provide a degree of resistance, but are not yet solid. From what we have seen at least. 

[+Q10fanatic]

On 6/7/2019 at 0:15 AM, Alderant said:

I say equivalent, because Shallan, as a Lightweaver, doesn't speak one Truth per oath level--she speaks a bunch of lesser truths to approach a level (threshold) of self-awareness, which level I gather is achieved with an ultimate Truth or pinnacle-like revelation.

I have not heard this before. Is this confirmed that Lightweavers don't have a clear oath-level progression? I've always thought that Shallan's truths were "I'm terrified" "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother".

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I have not heard this before. Is this confirmed that Lightweavers don't have a clear oath-level progression? I've always thought that Shallan's truths were "I'm terrified" "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother".

We are talking about introspection as a method for self actualization.  Not everyone is going to need 4 truths.  In fact most people probably need more.

[Pathfinder]

57 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I have not heard this before. Is this confirmed that Lightweavers don't have a clear oath-level progression? I've always thought that Shallan's truths were "I'm terrified" "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother".

To the best of my knowledge, no this has not been confirmed. Not saying Alderant or Kargas are wrong nor am I saying they are right. Only that it has not been confirmed. 

[+Q10fanatic]

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

We are talking about introspection as a method for self actualization.  Not everyone is going to need 4 truths.  In fact most people probably need more.

So the theory, as I understand it, is that Lightweavers rely on self-actualization to advance as Radiants and so can have a highly variable (and highly visible) relationship with their spren and powers. This is because they do not speak oaths or words like the other orders.

That's very interesting.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

To the best of my knowledge, no this has not been confirmed. Not saying Alderant or Kargas are wrong nor am I saying they are right. Only that it has not been confirmed. 

In Words of Radiance the author talks about someone not being able to progress via self actualization based on truths and having to use different orders.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

In Words of Radiance the author talks about someone not being able to progress via self actualization based on truths and having to use different orders.

To my knowledge what is confirmed:

1. Radiants swear oaths to advance. there is an upper limit

2. Lightweavers swear personal truths past the first oath

3. those truths are personal and come from great personal realization

 

The quote you provided can totally be interpreted the way you state. It can also be interpreted to say that like Shallan, that individual could not face his next truth so he could not advance. Just saying it isn't confirmed. Good luck with your theory!

[Alderant she/her]

Quote

“Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain. ”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 12, page 12^[19]

The above refers to Lightweavers progression being tied to needing to reach a threshold of self-awareness.

Next, this:

3 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

I have not heard this before. Is this confirmed that Lightweavers don't have a clear oath-level progression? I've always thought that Shallan's truths were "I'm terrified" "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother".

I didnt say they dont have a clear levelled progression--I did say, however, that not every "truth" she speaks is necessarily a Truth--for example, as of WoK Shallan was third level. She had a Shardblade. This implies to me that either A) what we have taken to be Truths arent, actually, or B ) the truths she spoke all worked toward a singular event, which was culminated at the end of WoR.

Its easy to assume the "Truths" she has spoken are the quanitfiable, correlative Truths of progression--however, as the text demonstrates in the very first pages of the Way of Kings, this clearly isnt the case. We do know that the truth spoken at the end of WoR was a Truth, because it is magically binding and unforgettable. We havent seen that same level of ramification from anything uttered to that point. We also know, however, that Shallan resorts to extraordinary levels of mental gymnastics to side-step what she doesnt want to think about.

Finally, I think this one is enlightening in that it talks about how much more difficult it is for Lightweavers to regress (and also progress), indicating that progression is more involved than simply speaking a few words.

Quote

Questioner

Kaladin kind of went back on his Oaths in the second book, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He started down that path.

Questioner

How could Shallan or Lightweavers go back on the Truths they make? And did Shallan do any of that in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the Cryptics-- remember, how the spren is viewing this is very important. The Cryptics have an interesting relationship with truth. Harder to break your Oaths in that direction with a Cryptic. Harder to move forward, also, if you're not facing some of these things and interacting with them in the right way. But, while I can conceive a world that it could happen, it'd be really hard to for a Lightweaver to do some of the stuff. Particularly the ones close to Honor, you're gonna end up with more trouble along those lines, let's say.

Questioner

So then, what happened with the Lightweavers during the Recreance? Did they break their Oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

They did break their Oaths. I mean, breaking your Oaths as in "walking away from the first Oath" will still do it, regardless of what Order you are. You can actively say, "I am breaking my Oaths and walking away." Anyone has that option. But you also are holding the life of a spren in your hand.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)