Lirin possible Releaser?

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

He fought Nale. And as for defensibly, well, he is a shardweapon, if he hits you in the right place, it is over for you. There is no stun setting.

Actually Lift proves there is. You can dull the blade. As long as it doesn't penetrate the skin, it acts as a bludgeon. You can also make it be a hammer

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He fought Nale. And as for defensibly, well, he is a shardweapon, if he hits you in the right place, it is over for you. There is no stun setting.

He was a poll.  If he had hit Nale Nale still would have been fine because their was no edge to the blade. 

Or what pathfinder said.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Karger
update

[Truthless of Shinovar he/him]

This is a really interesting theory; I think that there is evidence pointing in both directions, but personally, I hope this is a thing!!

[Pathfinder]

Another thought I had. Lirin does not have to use division against people. Releasers can "set fire" to even stone and things that do not burn. He could take down enemy siege weapons, or fortifications. Depending on the enemy and how division works, he could destroy the weapons the enemy is wielding. So he could do something similar to Lift at the battle of Thaylenah. Stymie the enemy without direct violence. 

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Truthless of Shinovar said:

This is a really interesting theory; I think that there is evidence pointing in both directions, but personally, I hope this is a thing!!

Thanks! (don't know how to quote in an existing post while editing it so double posted)

[Calyx]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is the thing.  I don't think he would.  Lirin might restrain someone but I don't think he is capable of causing physical damage to another being he deems human.

We have very different reads on Lirin's character. While he is clearly opposed to violence, I don't see him as a ghandi-like pacifist. Until we actually see him in a situation where fighting is nearly inevitable, we may not get concrete information on this one way or the other, and I'll keep your view in mind.

As to the root of this discussion, as @Lidolas argues, there are a lot of ways to interpret the first oath that don't require physical violence. Lirin is a strong character who shows great resilience and successfully resists temptation (i.e. saving Roshone's life). The mere fact of his profession shows that he puts life before death, in quite a literal sense.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Calyx said:

We have very different reads on Lirin's character. While he is clearly opposed to violence, I don't see him as a ghandi-like pacifist. Until we actually see him in a situation where fighting is nearly inevitable, we may not get concrete information on this one way or the other, and I'll keep your view in mind.

Thank you and likewise.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Another thought I had. Lirin does not have to use division against people. Releasers can "set fire" to even stone and things that do not burn. He could take down enemy siege weapons, or fortifications. Depending on the enemy and how division works, he could destroy the weapons the enemy is wielding. So he could do something similar to Lift at the battle of Thaylenah. Stymie the enemy without direct violence. 

Perhaps but he is also vary concerned with the attitudes involved in fighting.  As Kaladin noted.  Fighting against an enemy requires dehumanizing them and treating them as other and I do not think that he is comfortable in that kind of situation.

[Gray to he/him]

Theres a bad stigma in Rosharan society against Releasers and I dont want us to share that stigma, so I would like to see Lirin become a Releaser so that not only could they show the world a good Releaser, but also one who avoids violence. And I could see him using division to remove dead/infected flesh seeing as how hes a surgeon and aahspren like to look inside things. Plus it would match what all the Hearthstone folk said about him doing surgery was "unnatural"

[Karger he/him]

29 minutes ago, Gray to said:

Theres a bad stigma in Rosharan society against Releasers and I dont want us to share that stigma, so I would like to see Lirin become a Releaser so that not only could they show the world a good Releaser, but also one who avoids violence. And I could see him using division to remove dead/infected flesh seeing as how hes a surgeon and aahspren like to look inside things. Plus it would match what all the Hearthstone folk said about him doing surgery was "unnatural"

In point of fact I think the stigma exists primarily in the fandom as few Rosharans know what a Dustbringer is let alone how they are different from other Radiants.  Still I see your point.  We have made large judgements about these people from an incredibly small sample size.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Actually Lift proves there is. You can dull the blade. As long as it doesn't penetrate the skin, it acts as a bludgeon. You can also make it be a hammer

Shallan demonstrated that you can even have it be sword-shaped and not sharp.

And I absolutely think you can be a Radiant and be unwilling to fight. The First Ideal is very open to interpretation and doesn't preclude refusing combat.

That said, I think a pacifist is unlikely to attract an ashspren given their love of breaking stuff. It just seems like there would be a mass personality and philosophy clash there.

Edited June 6, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[Pathfinder]

So first just want to say to everyone and anyone, if Lirin doesn't feel right for you as a releaser, I totally respect and get that. My responses are just regarding what we know of radiancy and Lirin and why I think he could potentially become a member of that order. Now having said that, here I go!

 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

Thank you and likewise.

Perhaps but he is also vary concerned with the attitudes involved in fighting.  As Kaladin noted.  Fighting against an enemy requires dehumanizing them and treating them as other and I do not think that he is comfortable in that kind of situation.

Hmmm, dehumanizing someone to their component parts in order to do surgery? Like what Lirin has been telling Kaladin from the very first book? Surgeons on our world (on call doctors are different, they have to get to know the person), as well as from Lirin's own mouth have to look at a person like a mechanic looks at a car. Check out the parts, fix what isn't working if they can, get rid of what is not if they can't. Building callouses and knowing when to care and when to protect yourself to do your job. So Lirin already can do that, and we aren't even speaking of enemies trying to kill you, but people he is trying to treat and save. 

14 hours ago, Gray to said:

Theres a bad stigma in Rosharan society against Releasers and I dont want us to share that stigma, so I would like to see Lirin become a Releaser so that not only could they show the world a good Releaser, but also one who avoids violence. And I could see him using division to remove dead/infected flesh seeing as how hes a surgeon and aahspren like to look inside things. Plus it would match what all the Hearthstone folk said about him doing surgery was "unnatural"

I whole heartily agree! Thank you!

13 hours ago, Karger said:

In point of fact I think the stigma exists primarily in the fandom as few Rosharans know what a Dustbringer is let alone how they are different from other Radiants.  Still I see your point.  We have made large judgements about these people from an incredibly small sample size.

It exists in the fandom because of the stigma they suffer from in the books. Their eyes glow red because their gemstone is ruby, which makes people uncomfortable since the voidbringers eyes glow red. They dislike the name dustbringers because of the potential association it carries to be like the voidbringers. So the releasers in the novel definitely deal with a social stigma against their order that they have been trying to dispel for a while. 

13 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

Shallan demonstrated that you can even have it be sword-shaped and not sharp.

And I absolutely think you can be a Radiant and be unwilling to fight. The First Ideal is very open to interpretation and doesn't preclude refusing combat.

That said, I think a pacifist is unlikely to attract an ashspren given their love of breaking stuff. It just seems like there would be a mass personality and philosophy clash there.

Good point about Shallan.

Thing is, in my opinion the way it is worded is they don't like just breaking stuff, they want to see in side to see how things work. That sounds like surgeons, engineers, inventors, and scientists to me. It doesn't have to carry such a negative connotation, and I think Brandon placed it to sound the way it does to subvert our expectations. Here is a quote that makes dustbringers look bad. Here is a dusbringer that is "bad". All dustbringers must be bad! But then pops up a dustbringer that is a great person to subvert our expectations. Just like in my opinion the skybreakers. We have Nale that is insane leading a group that has been killing surgebinders for years casting them in a villainous role. Yet we see in Szeth's skybreaker training that part of the training includes helping locals police their people. We see Szeth using the law logically and with intent to improve. We hear Nale say how he used to (I assume prior to his madness) use the law to rehabilitate. So I think we are introduced to a very negative view of the skybreakers, but over time through Szeth are going to see a very different reality as he progresses. I think it is to show us/teach us that just because you are a radiant, does not mean you are perfect/infallible. You are still a person, but you have greater powers and even greater responsibilities as result. How those powers are used, and what responsibilities you own up to is up to the person. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It exists in the fandom because of the stigma they suffer from in the books. Their eyes glow red because their gemstone is ruby, which makes people uncomfortable since the voidbringers eyes glow red. They dislike the name dustbringers because of the potential association it carries to be like the voidbringers. So the releasers in the novel definitely deal with a social stigma against their order that they have been trying to dispel for a while. 

That was the ancient perspective I was talking about the modern ones.

 

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Hmmm, dehumanizing someone to their component parts in order to do surgery? Like what Lirin has been telling Kaladin from the very first book? Surgeons on our world (on call doctors are different, they have to get to know the person), as well as from Lirin's own mouth have to look at a person like a mechanic looks at a car. Check out the parts, fix what isn't working if they can, get rid of what is not if they can't. Building callouses and knowing when to care and when to protect yourself to do your job. So Lirin already can do that, and we aren't even speaking of enemies trying to kill you, but people he is trying to treat and save. 

I think that their is a difference.  Lirin knows exactly what killing entails and what it means.  Kaladin can kill because he decided not to be a surgeon.  Lirin has devoted his life to healing others. 

[Pathfinder]

22 minutes ago, Karger said:

That was the ancient perspective I was talking about the modern ones.

 

I think that their is a difference.  Lirin knows exactly what killing entails and what it means.  Kaladin can kill because he decided not to be a surgeon.  Lirin has devoted his life to healing others. 

And if Malata is the only releaser our cast gets to know, the stigma will continue into modern day. 

I respect that is how you feel, but I guess at the end of the day we will just have to agree to disagree. You said that Kaladin has to dehumanize the enemies in order to fight them and that Lirin cannot do that. A surgeon has to look at a person as just a body, otherwise they will be unable to cut them up, and do what is necessary. Surgery is very grisly. In many cases you are pretty much mutilating the person. Have you seen what sutures look like on a person fresh out of surgery when a limb had to be amputated, or an organ removed/transplanted? There is also a good chance of losing a person on that operating table. A surgeon has to accept that possibility in order to act and do what they have to. But again that is besides the point because based on what I have seen in the books and WoB, Lirin could be a member of the releasers, and advance all the way to the 5th oath without seeing a single second of combat. Also hailing back to the earlier point about shardblades, Brandon has said every order has access to shardplate, but members don't always use or want it. So just because you have access to weapons of war, does not mean they have to be actively used. I truly believe based on the information we have, any member of any order can be a pacifist and still advance within the order without issue. 

 

Argent (paraphrased)

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calyx]

To be fair, every Knight Radiant order has a modern stigma - nobody likes or trusts them until very recently.

As for a potential stigma against Dustbringers in the past, I don't think we have enough evidence. It's possible that they are called Dustbringers because they uniformly like to destroy stuff. But I think its equally plausible that they protest that name because, while they excel at combat, that isn't what they are really about. Perhaps the equivalent of saying "guys, we do other stuff too, don't call us Dustbringers, call us Releasers."

[Karger he/him]

I wish we knew something about Chana but it feels like we know less about her then anyone else!

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

I wish we knew something about Chana but it feels like we know less about her then anyone else!

I agree learning more about Chana would be great, but I do not know if it would play as big a part on how the order of knights function. Jezereh is the herald of kings, yet the windrunners are scouting shock troops. Ishar was a priest, but the bondsmiths are the leaders of the radiants. If I recall correctly Chana was described as a personal guard or soldier. We have no idea how the order of the releasers will manifest. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calyx]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I wish we knew something about Chana but it feels like we know less about her then anyone else!

I think this is basically all we know:

Quote

Wetlander

Speaking of the other Prologues… I have a looney theory that the assassin Liss is actually the Herald Chana in disguise.

Peter Ahlstrom

Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

And in another WoB, Brandon gives a RAFO to someone asking point blank if Liss is Chana (accompanied by an evil laugh).

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Jezereh is the herald of kings, yet the windrunners are scouting shock troops.

I am guessing that they can also be used as mobile field commanders of ordinary soldiers.

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ishar was a priest, but the bondsmiths are the leaders of the radiants

Their ancient role struck me as more advisory.  We don't know what Radiant governance was like but I always imagined it required a great deal of compromise and consensus.

Vedel's order are healers.

From what we can tell Pailiah's order did seem to be scholars.

Taln's order were defiantly soldiers.

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am guessing that they can also be used as mobile field commanders of ordinary soldiers.

Their ancient role struck me as more advisory.  We don't know what Radiant governance was like but I always imagined it required a great deal of compromise and consensus.

Vedel's order are healers.

From what we can tell Pailiah's order did seem to be scholars.

Taln's order were defiantly soldiers.

I could see Ishar as more advisory, but it is stated in the novels that there were three thrones present at Urithiru for the three bondsmiths. That seems very leading to me.

Vedel was a surgeon yes, yet edgedancers were viewed as graceful and lethal despite their healing surge, and from what we have seen of Renarin, truthwatchers are potentially better healers. 

Paliah I am not sure we have any idea what was her prior occupation. I think Battar is assumed to be the scholar of the group. 

True some heralds line up with their orders potentially (Taln as you said, Battar, Nale), but it does not seem to be a rule is what I mean. I do not think we can assume correlation given the exceptions we have already seen. 

 

edit: actually regarding Taln, yes it is assumed he was a general and soldier, but wasn't it stated he was just an average guy? Nothing special about him, yet he stepped up to join the other 9 and ended up holding up the oathpact by himself? So he could have been just some villager from some back water village for all we know. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calyx]

Some potentially relevant WoB on Dustbringers themselves:

Quote

Questioner

Do the Dustbringers have a propensity toward evilness?

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call them evil, but certain members of the Knights Radiant would say they're on the edge, and did not get along with them. Let's just say Skybreakers have not gotten along with Dustbringers, even though they are very near each other in a lot of ways.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

People are really interested in the Willshapers. Has this been a topic of conversation?

Other person

*inaudible*...17th Shard. *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, right. The Dustbringer is harder to figure out, I feel like the Willshaper will be a little more obvious once it happens. The Dustbringer is going to be hard.

Potential Skyward spoiler (barely):

Spoiler

Quote

Phantine

Okay, let's start with standard Roshar horoscopes:

If Spensa were to join the Knights Radiant, what order would fit her best?

Brandon Sanderson

Most likely, she'd be a Dustbringer. With small arguments for Stoneward, Skybreaker, or Edgedancer.

 

So to summarize: 

• Brandon wouldn't call Dustbringers evil, though apparently it is somewhat debatable.
• Skybreakers and Dustbringers don't get along, though Skybreakers didn't get along with Windrunners either, so this may not be a point against the Dustbringers.
• The Dustbringer appearing in the next book will be hard to figure out.
• Spoiler

  Spensa, an aggressive, loyal, brave, and deeply committed character, would likely fit best as a dustbringer.

   

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Calyx said:

Some potentially relevant WoB on Dustbringers themselves:

Potential Skyward spoiler (barely):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So to summarize: 

• Brandon wouldn't call Dustbringers evil, though apparently it is somewhat debatable.
• Skybreakers and Dustbringers don't get along, though Skybreakers didn't get along with Windrunners either, so this may not be a point against the Dustbringers.
• The Dustbringer appearing in the next book will be hard to figure out.
•   Reveal hidden contents

  Spensa, an aggressive, loyal, brave, and deeply committed character, would likely fit best as a dustbringer.

   

Great WoB! Also here is one regarding their name:

 

Rah179

Could you give us a snippet about the Dustbringers? Or Willshapers?

Brandon Sanderson

Dustbringers never liked their name, and tried hard to get people to use another title for them.

awakenedtassel

Was there a mechanical reason they weren't able to effect the name change, or was it just because the new name didn't catch on?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I could see Ishar as more advisory, but it is stated in the novels that there were three thrones present at Urithiru for the three bondsmiths. That seems very leading to me.

Could you find that quote?  I only remember the 10 thrones for the silver kingdom leaders.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Paliah I am not sure we have any idea what was her prior occupation. I think Battar is assumed to be the scholar of the group. 

Different types of knowledge.  I always saw Paliah as more Techne(practical knowledge with immediate use like engineering, medicine, and geometry) and Battar as more Episteme(more esoteric knowledge whose use is less straightforward and immediate like sociology, philosophy, and some kinds of mathematics).

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, Karger said:

Could you find that quote?  I only remember the 10 thrones for the silver kingdom leaders.

Different types of knowledge.  I always saw Paliah as more Techne(practical knowledge with immediate use like engineering, medicine, and geometry) and Battar as more Episteme(more esoteric knowledge whose use is less straightforward and immediate like sociology, philosophy, and some kinds of mathematics).

This was the quote I was remembering

"But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious."

Ok, but wouldn't soulcasting make more sense for engineering when it is associated with battar and shalash? Wouldn't engineering make more sense for willshapers whose herald is known as the builder? Yet the order is know for being adventurous explorers. All I am saying is it does not seem so clear cut to judge what the orders are like based on the heralds. The only thing they seem to share are the ideals which even they are Vorin constructs. 

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

"But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious."

Those thrones could be the 10 Silver Kingdom thrones not the ones that Bondsmiths are supposed to sit on. 

[Karger he/him]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok, but wouldn't soulcasting make more sense for engineering when it is associated with battar and shalash? Wouldn't engineering make more sense for willshapers whose herald is known as the builder? Yet the order is know for being adventurous explorers. All I am saying is it does not seem so clear cut to judge what the orders are like based on the heralds. The only thing they seem to share are the ideals which even they are Vorin constructs. 

Sorry about the double post I accidentally hit submit.  Episteme is scholarship related to the realm of thought Elsecaller surges allow them to physically go there.  Also I would find soulcasting to be of limited use in construction when you have cohesion and transportation like willshapers do.