Connected Orders in Radiants Diagram

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I'm not sure Renarin cannot use Illumination. I think he still has his normal 2 Truthwatcher surges along with the additional Voidbind. I point to the scene where he heals Adolin. He shows Adolin a picture in his mind of an idealized version of what Addie could be. Sounds like what Shallan does with her drawings to me, and that's definitely a form of Spiritual Illumination. Now that of course could be a side effect of healing. Has anyone else remarked on seeing an image off their perfect selves when being healed? Not that I remember. Then there's the discovery of the Gem Archives. 

I am personally of the belief that different Orders use their shared Surges differently, both because of the interactions with the unlike Surge and the way different Orders interpret the Surge used. The fundamental forces act the same physically. So gravitation looks the same for Windrunners and Skybreakers. But the additional uses, Cognitive and Spiritual gravitation, are going to act much differently for a Windrunner than a Skybreaker. I think Jasnah can do things with Soulcasting (at a distance without touch) that Shallan cannot due to its intermingling with her Transportation surge. I think that Shallan can do things with Illumination (giving limited solidity to her images) due to the intermingling with her Transformation surge. And so on and so forth.

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

We've never seen Jasnah talk to the souls of things she is Soulcasting, so we don't know if she can do that (personally I think she can, but for what ever reason Brandon didn't include it in her PoV)

We don't see her do it personally, but she coaches shallan on how to approach different substances with different methods. It's definitely something she does. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

32 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We don't see her do it personally, but she coaches shallan on how to approach different substances with different methods. It's definitely something she does. 

Yeah, that's why I assume she can. I was just pointing out that we haven't seen it done, so there is room to wonder. Personally I think she does it the same way Shallan does. I expect that if there are differences in how each order uses their surges, the difference in Soulcasting would be something else.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

there's also the deleted scene which shows Jasnah immediately after the attack on Wind's Pleasure, that does show her talking to some objects as she soulcasts them.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

4 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

there's also the deleted scene which shows Jasnah immediately after the attack on Wind's Pleasure, that does show her talking to some objects as she soulcasts them.

I was not aware of that. I should have stayed through the credits I guess.

[Karger he/him]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Without the mnemonic device that Lightweavers have, making illusions should be much more difficult for Truthwatchers, but Illumination is Illumination. They should be able to manipulate waveforms because that's what that surge does in Surgebinding. And Renarin can't. 

It is possible that creating illusions is a unique lightweaver resonance.  Also Jasnah seems to soulcast by imposing her will in a mind over matter way.  Perhaps Shallahn's surge is more persuasive based?

Edited March 18, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis he/him]

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

It is possible that creating illusions is a unique lightweaver resonance.

No its not. Her resonance is her memory trick. That's been confirmed. Andthe surge of Illumination is the manipulation of waveforms, per the Ars Arcanum. 

27 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also Jasnah seems to soulcast by imposing her will in a mind over matter way.

If that is true, how does she know any of this? 

Quote

Shallan gasped in wonder. “It obeyed. The air obeyed your call to transform. When I tried to make a single little stick change, it refused.”
“Soulcasting is a practiced art,” Jasnah said. “Up, up. Keep walking.” She sliced the steps off as they walked. “Remember, you mustn’t order stones, as they are more stubborn than men. Use coercion. Speak of freedom and of movement. But for a gas becoming a solid, you must impose discipline and will. Each Essence is different, and each offers advantages and disadvantages when used as a substrate for Soulcasting.”

 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

No its not. Her resonance is her memory trick.

Is their any indication that each radiant order only has one resonance?

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

If that is true, how does she know any of this? 

I was thinking about how she transfigured the ropes into smoke by ordering them in her wind's pleasure scene.

[Calderis he/him]

47 minutes ago, Karger said:

Is their any indication that each radiant order only has one resonance?

Resonance is a specific term for the extra "perk" granted to someone using two different powers. Everything that we've been told says that yes, it's only one. 

If you meant a combined surge that is something different. 

Quote

Illumination: The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms

That's what the Ars Arcanum says about the surge of Illumination, and furthermore, "Lightweaving" as a magic, should be Illuminatuon, just a "Soulcasting" is Transformation. 

Yes, Renarin is not of the order of Lightweavers, but he should still have "Lightweaving." He wouldn't have access to any combined Surges of a Lightweaver obviously, but I don't see how making an image would require transformation. 

This... 

Quote

LIGHTWEAVING
A second form of Surgebinding involves the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics common throughout the cosmere. Unlike the variations present on Sel, however, this method has a powerful Spiritual element, requiring not just a full mental picture of the intended creation, but some level of Connection to it as well. The illusion is based not simply upon what the Lightweaver imagines, but upon what they desire to create.
In many ways, this is the most similar ability to the original Yolish variant, which excites me. I wish to delve more into this ability, with the hope to gain a full understanding of how it relates to cognitive and spiritual attributes.

Should apply to Renarin. And he certainly seems to think it should as well. 

Quote

“The Surges of Progression and Illumination. I’m not sure how to make the second one work though. Shallan has explained it seven times, but I can’t create even the smallest illusion. Something’s wrong.”

 

[Karger he/him]

Perhaps as I believe was suggested earlier normal lightweavers rely on their photographic memories to produce illusions.  Or perhaps it is because of the different orders philosophy.  Pattern refers to Shallan's illusions as lies.  Perhaps Truethwatcher Illusions can only show absolute truths.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 hours ago, Karger said:

Perhaps as I believe was suggested earlier normal lightweavers rely on their photographic memories to produce illusions.  Or perhaps it is because of the different orders philosophy.  Pattern refers to Shallan's illusions as lies.  Perhaps Truethwatcher Illusions can only show absolute truths.

An illusion is by nature a lie. You see something that is not there. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the wording.

Now, even if Renarin could show only truths, he should be able to reproduce something he is looking at. Yet he failed. We also saw a Fused, who should only have the one Surge use an illusion. All indications are that if you have Illumination you can create illusions. Somebody without eidetic memory may have to look at a model, but it should work. Yet Renarin keeps failing. It looks like with Glys being corrupted Renarin traded a Surge for a "Voidsurge". He can see pictures of the future, which is an ability loosely related to making pictures.

[Karger he/him]

Renarin is likely a special case I was just thinking about normal Truethwathers.

[+Child of Hodor]

The diagonal lines seem like they are there so that they all intersect in the middle of the diagram. UNITY!

The vertical lines between Windrunners and Edgedancers and such ... I have no clue. They make the diagram busier, but they may be there for artistic reasons. I don't know why some would have 4 lines and others three. My only idea is that those orders can interact and combo in a special way when used together but I don't think that's true. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The diagonal lines seem like they are there so that they all intersect in the middle of the diagram. UNITY!

But the extra lines reduce that effect.

18 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

My only idea is that those orders can interact and combo in a special way when used together but I don't think that's true. 

Interaction happened between a Bondsmith and a Lightweaver. If this idea is to have merit we would have to assume that the opposite applies. They cannot interact in a special way.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

My only idea is that those orders can interact and combo in a special way when used together but I don't think that's true. 

Gravitation plus Abrasion would be pretty crazy now that I think about it. With zero friction the acceleration of gravity would get you to some pretty extreme speeds very quickly. Nothing obvious comes to mind for Stonewards and Lightweavers, but I'm probably just blind.

Edit: Cohesion plus sound waves could probably deliver some pretty impressive results, like the cymatics that Kasbal talks to Shallan about.

Edited March 19, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Calderis he/him]

18 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Edit: Cohesion plus sound waves could probably deliver some pretty impressive results, like the cymatics that Kasbal talks to Shallan about.

Or the Shattered Plains. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Or the Shattered Plains. 

Yea that's what I was implying with cymatics. I haven't reread WoK in a while, but if I remember correctly each of the Dawncities has a specific cymatic pattern associated with. I always assumed that the symmetry of the Shattered Plains was just Stormseat's cymatic pattern coming through.