WoB on Dalinar

[Chaos he/him]

1 minute ago, Winds Alight said:

Do you understand that there is a difference between "he might die" and "I do believe he WILL die"?

More importantly, "he definitely will die and it is a fact, and I will accept no other possibilities." 

[LerasiumMistborn]

4 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think it's possible he's going to die. I expect many characters to die. 

That doesn't mean he will, though. It's just a possibility. That's not the same. I purely disagree with you stating as a fact. And I strongly disagree that Brandon said he would die in his PMs to you. That's just false. You constantly assume he's a walking corpse, and you're very firm on this. 

Nothing is confirmed! You should couch your opinions as that: opinions, not facts. 

I think, it's not about me reading to much into Sanderson's words. It's others...Why should we came with..."creative interpretations" if there's much more simple answers?

For me, the right answer is the simple one.

For me, "Lift will be grown up in the second half" means "Lift will survive into the second half and will be grown up". Not "Lift's ghost will be still around" or other weird things.

"Kaladin will be important for the rest of the series" means "Kaladin will still be main character for the rest of the series". Not "Kaladin will leave Cognitive Shadow behind and will communicate with others through Shadesmar" or "Memory of Kaladin will be strong...".

No. Why? And for why doesn't he mention Dalinar after book 5 the most simple answer is "because there's nothing to mention".

I think Dalinar will die. I can't add nothing else to indicate it as my opinion. I explained why I think so.

[Chaos he/him]

Well, it is a possibility, but it is yours, and it is not a fact that Dalinar must die. He might. It is a simple answer, but also, OB showed that there can be some very complex and intriguing answers to many mysteries. So I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon surprises you... I think Dalinar dying is the obvious thing, so to me, I think he'd prefer to subvert that expectation, or make it a massive bloodbath, but that's just my opinion. 

I appreciate however you qualifying that with saying "I think so". Many of your statements were stated more strongly and factual than this, and you did claim that your WoB definitively said that he died, which is false. So I do thank you for your qualifications. 

All I can say is, Journey before Destination. I think the story will be good even if he does die. If you don't want to read the books anymore, that's up to you, and that's your decision. 

[Winds Alight she/her]

3 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I think, it's not about me reading to much into Sanderson's words. It's others...Why should we came with..."creative interpretations" if there's much more simple answers?

So you're saying you know and understand better than Sanderson himself and the dozen or so people here on the forums?

Also, if you believe "simple" is the answer to go when talking about SA then I'm starting to ask whether you actually read the books.

Yeah, it's very likely that Lift will live in book 6, that doesn't mean she'll live through it and still be around in 7. It's also possible that all of the main five of books 6-10 live through book 5 and then die in arc 2 before their flashback book comes around.
Renarin could die in book 6 and then be the flashback character in 7.

"Kaladin will be important" is 1. a very old WoB and 2. Eshonai is dead too and she's still important.

No one is safe.
No one is doomed.

[LerasiumMistborn]

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I appreciate however you qualifying that with saying "I think so". 

I kept repeating since the beginning: "I asked Sanderson about Dalinar's future and he said about books 4 and 5, but didn't mention the second half at all, that's why I think Dalinar will be dead in the second half". That's it. That's what I always said. Of course, he wouldn't say "Dalinar will die", but this seems to be a logical interpretation of what he said at least for me.

9 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Well, it is a possibility, but it is yours, and it is not a fact that Dalinar must die. He might. It is a simple answer, but also, OB showed that there can be some very complex and intriguing answers to many mysteries. So I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon surprises you... I think Dalinar dying is the obvious thing, so to me, I think he'd prefer to subvert that expectation, or make it a massive bloodbath, but that's just my opinion. 

I agree, that Dalinar dying is the obvious thing, that's why I think he will die. That is just obvious. Sanderson never subverts expectations. He draw a target on Dalinar's back since the beginning. He should also write "I'm this character who always dies in any book" on Dalinar's forehead. That's how obvious it is. Because Dalinar is this "older character within the cast, who's doomed to die". 

15 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think the story will be good even if he does die. 

It won't. Because the narrative implied on different development for Dalinar. Why even give him Honor's powers and write Oathbringer if it means nothing? You don't tease readers like this just to broke their expectations. That's a bad writing. The book is intentionally written to make readers expect big things from Dalinar. And some people have ridiculously high expectations for this character. That's what I wanted to say. I shouldn't expand my expectations. I have none. But maybe people, who expect Dalinar to be the most important character within the cosmere, should reduce theirs? Because when the book will be out and (IF) it won't happen, those people will be very, very disappointed. 

Do you REALLY believe Dalinar may Ascend instead of dying? Like, really?

[Winds Alight she/her]

6 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I agree, that Dalinar dying is the obvious thing, that's why I think he will die. That is just obvious. Sanderson never subverts expectations. He draw a target on Dalinar's back since the beginning. He should also write "I'm this character who always dies in any book" on Dalinar's forehead. That's how obvious it is. Because Dalinar is this "older character within the cast, who's doomed to die".

vs.

6 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

It won't. Because the narrative implied on different development for Dalinar.

So, what now?
You're starting to contradict yourself here.
 

6 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Do you REALLY believe Dalinar may Ascend instead of dying? Like, really?

I believe neither. Both are possible, though I hope it's ging to be something entirely different.
He could even die in book 4 and rock book 5 as a cognitive shadow!

Also,  since when has Sanderson been an author whose books are easy to predict?

Edited February 26, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@LerasiumMistborn Mistborn secret history spoilers:

Spoiler

Why not? Kelsier did both.

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Ixthos

[equinox]

Yes. I really believe that there is more to death in the Cosmere as just being gone. Other books provide ample evidence. 

But it is not a question of believe, but of how to state your beliefs. I agree with @Chaos that you sometimes present facts rather than what you believe in prior comments, although you made yourself more clear by now.

We can argue for hours on what we believe. For me it was just important to see that Dalinar's death is not a given fact. I love to read his story in any way, but knowing such things before the book is even written would be a disappointment for me. That's why I reacted quite strongly to your quite factual statements in this other thread (these postings have been hidden by now).

I will read books 4 and 5 (if I have the chance). I can offer you to spoil Dalinar's survival for you after the books are written, so that you might be able to read them as well ...

[LerasiumMistborn]

20 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@LerasiumMistborn Mistborn secret history spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Why not? Kelsier did both.

 

Becuse secret history is a story behind the story, a book written for hardcore cosmere fans specifically. Sanderson said he doesn't want SA to be like this, so it won't happen. 

 

23 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

You're starting to contradict yourself here.

It's like Eshonai, who was on her way to becoming a Radiant, only to be thrown away for a mere shock twist. I think Dalinar is the same.

 

25 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

I believe neither. Both are possible, though I hope it's ging to be something entirely different.

He could even die in book 4 and rock book 5 as a cognitive shadow!

Also,  since when has Sanderson been an author whose books are easy to predict?

But entirely different doesn't make any sense. Dalinar is Connected to Honor, he has Honor's spren, he can use Honor's powers somehow. Trying something else is madness. Why even write Dalinar/Honor story if it means nothing? It ruins everything.

That won't happen because book 5 was originally Dalinar's book, where he got his memories back. Also, Sanderson said he doesn't want such things in Stormlight.

I don't know. For me, they were pretty predictable. I didn't find any surprises nor big Wtf moments.

23 minutes ago, equinox said:

Yes. I really believe that there is more to death in the Cosmere as just being gone. 

I don't want Dalinar to die. That's it.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@LerasiumMistborn The events are still referred to in Bands of Morning though. And the Fused are confirmed to be cognitive shadows, just as the Heralds are confirmed to die and gain new bodies.

 

In any case, I don't think Dalinar will die. If I may, how do you think Brandon would have phrased the message he sent you if Dalinar has a big role in Stormlight 6 to 10 but didn't want to spoil it?

[LerasiumMistborn]

41 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I don't think Dalinar will die. If I may, how do you think Brandon would have phrased the message he sent you if Dalinar has a big role in Stormlight 6 to 10 but didn't want to spoil it?

He could at least add something like "the rest is a RAFO..." He just never mentions Dalinar, as if his absence in the second half goes without saying. When he's talking about other characters, it sounds way more positive and ambitious. He often says, "future [of this character] is a big RAFO" or "there's something that will please you, but saying more would give spoilers" or "I think you will be happy [with this character future]."

With Dalinar, nothing. He never said he will have a future nor than we (who love Dalinar) will like it. He struggles to find any encouraging words when people ask him about Dalinar.

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Do you REALLY believe Dalinar may Ascend instead of dying? Like, really?

Yes. That's what I believe Unity is. A reinterpretation of Honor. 

2 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Becuse secret history is a story behind the story, a book written for hardcore cosmere fans specifically. Sanderson said he doesn't want SA to be like this, so it won't happen. 

This is not at all true. Brandon has said that if he could write only one of his series it would be Stormlight. It is to be his magnum opus. 

It's already complicated. It already crosses outside of itself into the greater cosmere. There is absolutely nothing simple about SA. 

[LerasiumMistborn]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Brandon has said that if he could write only one of his series it would be Stormlight. It is to be his magnum opus. 

It's already complicated. It already crosses outside of itself into the greater cosmere. There is absolutely nothing simple about SA. 

SA being his magnum opus doesn't mean he can allow himself to include stuff like secret history in it. It's not even a novel...it's a book about Cosmere lore. 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yes. That's what I believe Unity is. A reinterpretation of Honor. 

I think it's pretty obvious (from Oathbringer) that Dalinar is on the way to reviving Honor and becoming it's new Vessel. The narrative is written to make readers think/expect it will happen. Just like Eshonai was on the way to bonding a spren and becoming a Radiant. Her narrative was written to make readers expect those things.

Nothing prevents Honor-Dalinar scenario to be wasted for another "amazing" twist. Situation with Eshonai demonstrates that Sanderson loves such "twists", and it increases chances for the same waste of Dalinar's story. 

[equinox]

I don't think Brandon Sanderson killed off Eshonai because he wanted to twist the story. I think he has good reasons why moving on the story with Venli as listener Radiant fits better than doing so with Eshonai.

On his website you can read chapters of some books that never have been published. You can see how some elements of the stories are reused in published books. Usually these elements are changed somehow. Before the change, the story did not work, but Brandon knows how to write and how to revise books. Maybe he will reveal his reasons for certain changes in the SA later on (although I'm not a writer, I find it very interesting to read these old versions and experience flaws and changes). Maybe not. But I'm sure they exist. 

Will Brandon Sanderson make mistakes? Well.. He is human after all (I think). Will he make huge mistakes such as killing of characters just for unexpected twists and shocks? I don't think so. Judging by other books, I'd say that's not his style.

[LerasiumMistborn]

21 hours ago, equinox said:

I don't think Brandon Sanderson killed off Eshonai because he wanted to twist the story. I think he has good reasons why moving on the story with Venli as listener Radiant fits better than doing so with Eshonai.

On his website you can read chapters of some books that never have been published. You can see how some elements of the stories are reused in published books. Usually these elements are changed somehow. Before the change, the story did not work, but Brandon knows how to write and how to revise books. Maybe he will reveal his reasons for certain changes in the SA later on (although I'm not a writer, I find it very interesting to read these old versions and experience flaws and changes). Maybe not. But I'm sure they exist. 

Will Brandon Sanderson make mistakes? Well.. He is human after all (I think). Will he make huge mistakes such as killing of characters just for unexpected twists and shocks? I don't think so. Judging by other books, I'd say that's not his style.

I think it was done poorly. It was obvious that Eshonai's supposed to be main character, but Sanderson changed his mind halfway through and just threw her away. Her, all build up, everything. End result is wierd.

And it made some things clear for me: Sanderson doesn't care for his characters. If he can waste them, throw them away that easily, then they're just a plot devices for him, nothing more.

[equinox]

I agree that some things might not work perfectly for some people (I, for instance, don't like the Amaram conclusion), but in the long run it will be better that Brandon sometimes changes his mind. Eshonai was not able to tell the story that Brandon wants to tell. I liked her character a lot, but if Brandon had dragged her along, it may have been worse than killing her off. 

If you read e.g. Mythwalker, you will see why certain elements just did not work in the story, but became very interesting elements in Warbreaker, Mistborn and SA. I think it is premature to say a character is wasted, before we know how the story continues. We can discuss whether Venli or Eshonai serves the story better (I think that is already being discussed in other threads with good reasons provided by both sides). But Dalinar's story is not over yet. 

[RShara she/her]

7 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I kept repeating since the beginning: "I asked Sanderson about Dalinar's future and he said about books 4 and 5, but didn't mention the second half at all, that's why I think Dalinar will be dead in the second half". That's it. That's what I always said. Of course, he wouldn't say "Dalinar will die", but this seems to be a logical interpretation of what he said at least for me.

I'm sorry, but since the beginning, you've been stating your opinion as fact. You have always been welcome to your opinion, but you've stated it definitively as "this is what that means, there's no other possible interpretation." You've been using the WoBs you have to tell people that Brandon told you Dalinar will die and that he will have no role in later books. This entire thread has been trying to show you that your interpretation is just that, your interpretation, and that you've been putting way more into those WoBs than Brandon put there. Your interpretation may be right, it may be wrong. But it's yours, not everyone else's, and definitely not what Brandon said or intended.

Edited February 26, 2019 by RShara

[Ahriman he/him]

I'm a bit confused here. I'm also a huge Dalinar fan, although I could see him living or dying depending on what happens. But even if he does die, that's not going to upset me, because I'm sure it will be done well. Killing a character isn't the same as wasting them. But you said that you expected him to die from the start, so why does what you've taken to be implicit confirmation of that bother you so much? I don't agree that Sanderson confirmed anything about Dalinar's fate, but if that's what you think he said, I don't think I would be any more than mildly irritated for losing the element of surprise. And is Dalinar the only character you care about? I certainly think he's one of the best, but I can't imagine reading books of that size and only liking one person, especially considering that he wasn't the central character in the first two books.

Either way, I'm sure that if the conclusion to Dalinar's arc includes his death, my fondness for him will leave me even more satisfied with it. A story doesn't have to go the way I want, or to necessarily have a traditionally happy ending, for it to be good.

[Jace21 he/him]

3 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

It was obvious that Eshonai's supposed to be main character, but Sanderson changed his mind halfway through and just threw her away.

This is an example of what people have been telling you.

Was Eshonai set up as the "obvious" singer character? Yes.

Does that mean she was "supposed to be the main character, but Sanderson changed his mind halfway through and just threw her away"? No. That is how you interpret it and thats fine, but it is not the only interpretation.

Same with your views on Dalinar's future role.

3 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Her, all build up, everything. End result is weird.

This is also skews information. We haven't seen the end result yet.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Jace21

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Hey Lerasium, 

I don't want to sound like another person disagreeing, but I think I might have an idea of where your interpretation has differed from most other people's in regards to that WoB. It seems like you had a different intention with your question than you actually asked. I think you were hoping to ask something on the verge of: What is Dalinar's role in all future Stormlight books? When Brandon only talked about 4 & 5, you took that as confirmation that Dalinar would not appear in any other books. 

However, Brandon was not trying to answer that question. When he answered you, he was only talking about Dalinars immediate future.

He very intentionally only told you about the next two books, no further. That's what Brandon's second message is trying to make clear: Whether Dalinar is in the back five or not, Brandon is not revealing anything. Dalinar could be in every chapter in the back five, or he could be in none of them, and Brandon's answer would be the same. That's what he's trying to convey. This is why he said he's "very, very intentionally not saying anything about any of the characters after book five."

Now as you mentioned, we've seen with Lift that he's let a few things slip here and there, like you pointed out, but I think he is trying to be very careful now to not let anything else slip out. And you may have other reasons for thinking Dalinar will die (it's a possibility, sure!) but I think what people are trying to show you is that this WoB shouldn't be taken as proof that Dalinar only has two books left. That's not what Brandon is saying to you in this WoB at all. And that's why Brandon himself told you you were "reading a lot more into [his] reply than what [he] said." 

That's Brandon's way of saying that him not talking about Dalinar in the back five is not mean Dalinar can't be in them. Brandon's saying it could be either way, he won't confirm.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Given all the information I know of, I'd say Dalinar's chances of surviving a quite good. I won't be surprised if he survives. I won't be surprised if he doesn't survive. 

I also won't be surprised if he becomes the new Honor, or if he doesn't.

Also MB spoiler:

Spoiler

Vin was being built up to be the Hero of Ages. That was intentional, and Brandon subverted that expectation quite nicely. I didn't think it was a waste to learn she wasn't the Hero, and I also didn't think it a waste when she and Elend died. I loved those characters, and their deaths were part of a resolution that overall was quite satisfying.

So it doesn't really matter if Dalinar is being built up to take Honor. I know that it's entirely possible that things will get twisted, and that plot twist doesn't have to involve is death. Or there might not be that plot twist at all.

[Karger he/him]

I can absolutely guarantee that at some point Dalinar will die he is in his mid 50s (earth years) and he has not exactly taken care of himself (note years of alcoholism).  Even if he does ascend or figure out some other form of immortality even Adonalsium did not last for ever.  See here I am proudly stating that at some eventuality Dalinar will die.

[Solant he/him]

I feel like we are glossing over the fact that OB was his focus book, so naturally he is going to have a greater presence there than any of the other books. It's how the first two books were written about their respective characters and it's what we can expect from the remaining books as well.

This is an enormous book series with a massive cast, and we have to expect that some characters are going to need to sacrifice screen time to others as character stories are being told within the greater narrative. I know you complained about Kaladin's page count relative to others thus far, but his is a role that tends to be in the center of the action where the books climax tends to be as well. 

I'm certain that our main 5 will be central to the plot during the first arc. After that, they will mostly fade to central, but not POV characters, much like the back five are presented now, assuming they survive. As others have stated, there are so many possibilities in what we can expect to see and most of them contradict each other. What seems obvious to me could be (and likely is) completely different than any other fan on this site. That's one of the reasons I like him so much as a writer, and is actually one of the reasons this community is as strong as it. Most of these threads consist of people bouncing ideas off each other, and discussing until Calderis or Rshara comes by and shoots us down with a WoB.

Just kidding with that last part.

All I'm trying to say really is that if you don't want to read about the loss of your favorite character (which may or may not happen), maybe you should drop the series and move on to something else. If you enjoy Brandon as a writer, and you enjoy his stories and characters, I believe you should take a chance and continue. You may be happily surprised. 

Journey before destination.

[RShara she/her]

10 minutes ago, Solant said:

I feel like we are glossing over the fact that OB was his focus book, so naturally he is going to have a greater presence there than any of the other books. It's how the first two books were written about their respective characters and it's what we can expect from the remaining books as well.

I pointed that out a few times, actually Yeah, it makes sense that he will only have the biggest role in his book. That's been the case with every character so far. They have one book where they have the most words, and then the others they have less.

11 minutes ago, Solant said:

until Calderis or Rshara comes by and shoots us down with a WoB.

Rude. But also probably true.

[LerasiumMistborn]

11 hours ago, Ahriman said:

I'm a bit confused here. I'm also a huge Dalinar fan, although I could see him living or dying depending on what happens. But even if he does die, that's not going to upset me, because I'm sure it will be done well. Killing a character isn't the same as wasting them. But you said that you expected him to die from the start, so why does what you've taken to be implicit confirmation of that bother you so much? I don't agree that Sanderson confirmed anything about Dalinar's fate, but if that's what you think he said, I don't think I would be any more than mildly irritated for losing the element of surprise. And is Dalinar the only character you care about? I certainly think he's one of the best, but I can't imagine reading books of that size and only liking one person, especially considering that he wasn't the central character in the first two books.

Either way, I'm sure that if the conclusion to Dalinar's arc includes his death, my fondness for him will leave me even more satisfied with it. A story doesn't have to go the way I want, or to necessarily have a traditionally happy ending, for it to be good.

Yes, it bothers me. Because for everyone else Dalinar's death is just another "amazing story and satisfying conclusion", but for me it's a personal tragedy. Like a real loss of something dear to me. You can laugh at me, you can call me an idiot for feeling so strong for a fictional character, but this is how it is. And many people fell strongly for those characters. I read every day "I will stop reading the books if Kaladin dies", "I will riot if Kaladin dies", "I will kill myself, if Kaladin dies" together with endless complains about lack of Kaladin's page time (What??). 

So, for everyone Kaladin's death is a tragedy and end of the world. Dalinar's death is a satisfying conclusion. Kaladin needs to live to make a satisfying narrative, and Dalinar NEEDS to die to get satisfying conclusion. For, me it's NOT satisfying. I understand that he's not even a main character and very few people care for him, but I do care, and for me, his death is something more than another death of fictional character.

Yes, I'm an idiot, because I was stupid enough to believe Sanderson will make a book, where character like Dalinar would be allowed to have a narrative. Nope, he's just another minor background character, doomed to die. It was foolish to think otherwise. He's here, in this story, only to die and create a "moment". So people, who don't care for his character, but want "blood" will be happy and get satisfying narrative. So, for some idiots like me, it's not a good story at all. It's a loss. Real loss.