Fanghur Rahl Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 I’ve mentioned this a couple times on the Discord, but I just wanted to put it here as well. To me, the Elsecallers really seem to give off a vibe of being a very knowledge and logic-oriented Order of Radiants, at least if Jasnah is anything approaching a representative member of the Order. So that being said, I strongly suspect that at the end of Oathbringer, Jasnah swears her fourth ideal (or maybe her 5th, though I’d be really irritated at Brandon), and what's more, I also have a theory as to what it was, at least generally. Based on hints we've gotten about the Windrunner 4th oath from the gem archive, it seems that 4th ideals may generally be a significant shake-up from the previous three, with the Windrunners' presumably having something to do with it being okay to not be able to protect people under certain circumstances. Well, if that trend holds true for Elsecallers too, and if the Elsecaller ideals regard being logical and rational in their decisions and outlook, both of which I acknowledge are assumptions at this point, but I think plausible ones, what might their 4th ideal be? To me, it seems pretty obvious. Why did Jasnah not kill Renarin at the end of Oathbringer despite having every reason to suspect that he had been corrupted by Odium and was now at the very least a great danger to their cause? Because despite her knowing that it was the 'logical' thing to do, her love for him stayed her hand long enough for her to realize that not all was as it seemed. I think that moment was symbolic of her realizing her 4th ideal. And so, I put forth this as a possible candidate for what it was: “I will not allow logic at the complete expense of all emotional attachment to dictate important decisions I must make.” A very common trope is that people who are hyper-logical will often do terrible things because they disregard what their 'hearts' tell them is right. So to me it makes sense for one of the Elsecaller ideals to be a counter to this danger. Anyone have any thoughts? 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said: A very common trope is that people who are hyper-logical will often do terrible things because they disregard what their 'hearts' tell them is right. So to me it makes sense for one of the Elsecaller ideals to be a counter to this danger. Anyone have any thoughts? I like this ^ That would also be a great counter point to King T and the Diagram's entire existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 I'll just say here too, that I'm sure Jasnah swore at least her 4th Ideal long before the Battle of Thaylen City, and is in full command of her Shardplate by then. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted February 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 1 hour ago, RShara said: I'll just say here too, that I'm sure Jasnah swore at least her 4th Ideal long before the Battle of Thaylen City, and is in full command of her Shardplate by then. That’s what? Your fourth time today? Your passion for disagreeing with my theory impresses me. xD. In all seriousness though, I accept that it’s at least possible that you’re correct and her sparing Renarin was actually the impetus for her 5th ideal, even though I absolutely hate that possibility for reasons that I’ve said before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 I just copied and pasted, we just happen to be in the same groups haha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted February 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 What can I say? Most of my posts there have been going nearly viral lately; I’m building a bit of a reputation. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 2 hours ago, RShara said: I'll just say here too, that I'm sure Jasnah swore at least her 4th Ideal long before the Battle of Thaylen City, and is in full command of her Shardplate by then. What makes you think this is the case? I'm not in whatever other group you guys are talking about (maybe Discord) to see your theory @RShara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 The fact that we see the fading glowing lines around Jasnah during the battle. Pretty sure that is her dismissing her Plate, given that she'd just thrown someone across a building the second before. Having Plate would mean that she was already past the 4th Ideal. Being competent in using it would mean that she's had it for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 49 minutes ago, RShara said: The fact that we see the fading glowing lines around Jasnah during the battle. Pretty sure that is her dismissing her Plate, given that she'd just thrown someone across a building the second before. Having Plate would mean that she was already past the 4th Ideal. Being competent in using it would mean that she's had it for a while. Living plate is more intuitive, more user friendly than the dead version. I would think it's not too difficult to be competent in living Plate. Plus she's seen Plate work all her life. It's not something she's unfamiliar with. Lastly we don't know Elsecaller progression. She might have gotten Plate on Ideal 3. Renarin seems to have gotten blade on Ideal 2. The point is that we cannot be certain until at least RoW. As for my opinion? Glad u asked! I think Jasnah sparing Renarin was Ideal 4 for her, but ain't no telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, RShara said: The fact that we see the fading glowing lines around Jasnah during the battle. Pretty sure that is her dismissing her Plate, given that she'd just thrown someone across a building the second before. Having Plate would mean that she was already past the 4th Ideal. Being competent in using it would mean that she's had it for a while. Radiants gain access to their Plate upon swearing their 4th ideal, not their 5th. So it would make complete sense for us to have seen evidence of Jasnah summoning/dismissing it if she had just sworn her fourth ideal, as I believe that she had. But prior to that moment there is literally zero evidence that she ever had access to her plate, including in at least one situation in which it absolutely could’ve been useful, namely when they were attacked by the Ghostbloods on the ship. So I’m not quite sure why you’re putting this forth as evidence against my theory, when the reality is that if anything it’s completely expected under it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Being attacked by the Ghostbloods on the ship was months ago, and she's been to figurative Damnation and back, had all her fears realized and spent hours in Hoid's company. There's plenty of time there for her to have sworn the 4th Ideal and practiced with her Plate by the time of the Battle. She also didn't look surprised or amazed or anything when Adolin saw her. She looked completely calm and collected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, RShara said: Being attacked by the Ghostbloods on the ship was months ago, and she's been to figurative Damnation and back, had all her fears realized and spent hours in Hoid's company. There's plenty of time there for her to have sworn the 4th Ideal and practiced with her Plate by the time of the Battle. She also didn't look surprised or amazed or anything when Adolin saw her. She looked completely calm and collected. This is Jasnah we’re talking about RShara, what else would we expect from her? Literally the only time in the entire series post-Gavilar’s death when we see her as anything even close to not completely composed and in control is during the Renarin scene. Presumably she knew that upon swearing the ideal she would be able to summon the Plate, and I’m sure throughout her life she’s extensively studied the literature on Shardplate, so she’d have a pretty good idea what to expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 My point is that not having seen her use it before then isn't really an argument for or against. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 It is if we would have expected to have said evidence but in fact don’t. But I’ll grant you with that certainly not conclusive one way or the other. My original point was just that the argument you put forward for why you think that it was the fifth ideal rather than the fourth is a nonstarter since Radiants receive their plate at the 4th ideal, not the 5th. Or at least that’s the case with the Windrunners. My guess is that it’s probably the same for all the Orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 I didn't say anything about the 5th Ideal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 I think I'm going to chime in between the two. I don't think Jasnah had plate before or she would have used it, to me she is far to practical to not have. The moment she spares Renarin is so revelatory for both of them that I agree it was a turning point for her in her growth as a Radiant. Especially when Ivory says Quote "Jasnah, this is right. Somehow it is... it is not what makes sense, yet it is still right. How. How is this thing?" Whether she said her 4th ideal off screen or is about to on-screen in the next book I'm not sure. The geometric shapes around her remind me of when windspren slow with and around Kaladin as he revels in his flights, and seem to aid him in flight as well. It could also be a function of the three realms being so close together. Jasnah can see both Shadesmar and the Physical realm at the same time, she uses that to good effect in the battle. Adolin is the one to see the odd geometric shapes around her in that scene, perhaps his recent foray into Shadesmar along with his growing bond to his blade, let him partially glimpse things of that realm in the physical as well? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, RShara said: I didn't say anything about the 5th Ideal? Did I misunderstand you? Didn’t you mean to say that you thought she was passed her 4th ideal (which can only mean the 5th since that the only one left) because you think we saw her summoning her plate? If that’s not what you were trying to imply, then I apologize for misunderstanding you. But that’s what it sounded like to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Oh sorry, no. I mean passed the 4th Ideal as in, already spoken it, so she passed it. Like a milestone, it's behind her, and she continued on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 To be perfectly honest here, I don't care either way. She could have had it for a wile, or gotten it right then. But as to not having evidence prior being a point towards it being new... I very much disagree. Jasnah is paranoid to the point of eschewing a room on the edge of Urithiru specifically to avoid an easy entry for assassins. Keeping plate hidden from everyone so that it could be brought out on a moment that's critical against a foe that doesn't expect it is exactly the thing Jasnah would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Ah, gotcha. Sorry about that. Either way though, Green Hoodie put the argument against that better than I did. Something very significant happened to Jasnah during that scene with regards to her progression as a radiant. I am as close to 100% certain of that as it’s possible to get. There’s no way that Brandon would’ve written it like that if he didn’t intend it to be something extremely significant 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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