"Why I don't like Adolin" / "Why I do like Adolin"

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

In terms of the cultural context for Sadeas' murder - I don't think you're remembering the Alethi culture correctly.  It's considered cowardly to assassinate someone or kill them in cold blood when they aren't expecting a fight.  If Adolin had marched up to Sadeas and forced him into a duel that was a mostly fair fight, then it would be applauded as a strong play.  That is not what he did - he surprised Sadeas and murdered him before Sadeas could defend himself.  The fact that he ultimately killed Sadeas is not viewed negatively in Alethi society - it's the fact that he did it dishonorably.  Another theme of the books though is that Dalinar is trying to change the values of all societies within Roshar.  He is trying to change the idea that might makes right which dominates Alethi culture.  So, especially in his own father's eyes and over time in the eyes of the general public this is going to be viewed more and more negatively.  

This is one of those things where what is said and what is done are two completely separate things. Yes, assassination is said to be frowned upon, but as Jasnah shows us, assassin's are readily available it's only an issue if you're stupid enough to get caught. 

The office of the kings Wit is set up to mirror this. It is perfectly legal to kill the kings Wit openly, but you will be stripped of all lands and titles. So you simply assassinate him and it's all good. This is so accepted that when Amaram, playing his role as the paragon of honor as always, first arrives and sees Wit, he says in the midst of a public feast... 

Quote

Amaram sighed. “Why hasn’t anyone killed him yet?”

It's no different than Sadeas and the tower. 

Alethi society, and Dalinar is trying to change this, is a mockery of honor in which if Adolin were exposed he'd be called a coward... But if everyone knew he did it and there was absolutely no way to prove it he'd be quietly respected. 

If Alethi society weren't the mockery that it is, Adolin wouldn't have any need to have killed Sadeas and I wouldn't defend his actions, because Sadeas wouldn't have been tolerated. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Calderis

[Sedside]

10 hours ago, Llayne said:

I wouldn't categorize it as giving advice, more of a confrontation. Adolin confronted his father with a 'truth' that he saw and that nobody else would or could say to the Blackthorn. He was trying to prevent the downfall of his House. Did we see any of his generals speak to Dalinar this way? Did Renarin?  Something needed to be said and nobody else was going to do it, so Adolin took that responsibility.

Standing up to your parents can be difficult for anyone, let alone when your father is the nigh-legendary Blackthorn. The fact that it left both of then shaken afterward should speak to emotional depth of the scene, and what they felt was on the line.

All right, I will try to explain again. You can come to your superior and say “hey, you are doing your job poorly, do better” - this is not a responsibility. It’s a critique. You can say “hey, you can do your job better, you just have to do the following: …” - this is not a responsibility. It’s an advice. Both advice and critique are fine, is case you are asked for them. Dalinar didn’t ask Adolin to criticise or advice him. But you can also come to your superior and say “hey, we can improve our work, we just need to do the following: … I’m ready to take a lead on the implementation of these improvements, if you find it acceptable.” And this is responsibility. Not only saying something, but also doing something, or at least being ready to do something.

Generals don’t speak to Dalinar this way not because they are irresponsible, and Adolin didn’t speak to Dalinar this way because he is brave and responsible. He dared to speak to Dalinar this way, because he is his storming son. What would Dalinar do to his son? Renarin respects his father, that’s why he doesn’t speak to him about it, not because he is irresponsible. He supports his father (as well as his brother, by the way) and doesn't want to make him feel worse. But the fact that Adolin did it actually make this action even less responsible. Not only did he come to Dalinar with an unwanted critique, but he has also used their family relations to do so. Taking responsibility is accepting to take a burden. What burden did Adolin take with this conversation? None. He only placed an additional burden on his father’s shoulders - the burden of “even my son thinks I’m insane, maybe I should abdicate?”

10 hours ago, Llayne said:

In a similar vein I don't allow the fact that Jasnah became Queen, and is IMO undoubtedly a better choice than Adolin, override the fact that he not only backed out of that responsibility but (in true Adolin form) didn't look at the consequences. He was prepared to leave the kingdom without a viable leader just because he didn't feel comfortable taking the role. The fact that it worked out for the better doesn't change what he did. Had he been a more mature person at that time he would have accepted the responsibility of being King, despite his own feelings to the contrary. Just as Dalinar took on the burden of diplomat, despite the fact that he felt ill-suited to the task. 

People's mistakes, and how they deal with them, are part of what makes them compelling character. Just refer to ANY of the MC's.

Well, the problem is that people don’t mature, if they don’t take responsibility. The process of maturing requires it. It’s like growing muscles, you can’t say “I’m not ready to go to the gym, I’ll have to wait until I grow some muscles, and until that happens I will keep laying on a couch”. Maturing is about taking a little more responsibility each time, then you are comfortable with. Yeah, maybe becoming a king is a little too much of responsibility to Adolin, I agree. But if he hadn't been denying his responsibilities repeatedly, if he had accepted him being in line of the throne inheritance and not “hoping it will never happen”, he would have probably been more mature now and maybe even could be able to take the throne, knowing that his smart relatives will help him.

10 hours ago, Llayne said:

I think Adolin is an interesting character. He's a good person in general, especially on the surface, but he has a dark streak in him born from the cutthroat society of Alethi politics. He's probably more like Sadeas than he would care to admit.

He's also got some deep insecurities, partially due to his mixed heritage (my guess... he's mentioned it a few times but never with any emotion) and the fact that he's the son of the Blackthorn. Dalinar was absent for a good portion of Adolin's young life, and drunk for another significant portion... so not the best father figure. He also lost his mother.

I know BS said he wasn't initially a main character and I don't know if that changed along the way. He's definitely a WIP character, in the 'hypocrite' stage mentioned in the books, and if he doesn't become a MC his growth/arc will likely be spread out over several more books. He's likely to be in this transition stage for a while.

Yeah, I agree with everything you say here.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Sedside

[Llayne]

49 minutes ago, Sedside said:

ll right, I will try to explain again. You can come to your superior and say “hey, you are doing your job poorly, do better” - this is not a responsibility. It’s a critique. You can say “hey, you can do your job better, you just have to do the following: …” - this is not a responsibility. It’s an advice. Both advice and critique are fine, is case you are asked for them. Dalinar didn’t ask Adolin to criticise or advice him. But you can also come to your superior and say “hey, we can improve our work, we just need to do the following: … I’m ready to take a lead on the implementation of these improvements, if you find it acceptable.” And this is responsibility. Not only saying something, but also doing something, or at least being ready to do something.

I understand your viewpoint, it's a common one. The phrase "Don't come to me with a problem unless you have a solution" is often thrown about. I don't buy into it completely, but that's a different discussion.

I fully agree that Adolin didn't have the experience, follow through, foresight, or any number of other positive traits that would have helped him handle this situation better. Those things are different than responsibility.

Adolin spoke up when nobody else would. He exercised " the moral obligation to behave correctly toward or in respect of." (one of the definitions of responsibility by the way) He had a moral obligation to give his father the truth (as he saw it) when nobody else would. That was his burden. He forced his father to consider the fact that the visions may not be true, and contemplate what could happen if he continues down that path. He could have ruined his relationship with his father in the process... they were definitely strained until they finally talked.

Skipping forward... his attempts to keep his father from abdicating after the fact does speak of a lack of responsibility. Nothing had changed at that point, they still though the visions were fake.

As an aside: I'm not sure where the idea of only giving feedback or critique when asked comes from. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. If I was on a bus and the driver was driving straight into a wall, I certainly wouldn't sit there and hope the driver asked for my input on his driving. I'd say something, and essentially take responsibility for the lives of everyone in the bus. (or House Kholin)

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Well, the problem is that people don’t mature, if they don’t take responsibility. The process of maturing requires it. It’s like growing muscles, you can’t say “I’m not ready to go to the gym, I’ll have to wait until I grow some muscles, and until that happens I will keep laying on a couch”. Maturing is about taking a little more responsibility each time, then you are comfortable with. Yeah, maybe becoming a king is a little too much of responsibility to Adolin, I agree. But if he hadn't been denying his responsibilities repeatedly, if he had accepted him being in line of the throne inheritance and not “hoping it will never happen”, he would have probably been more mature now and maybe even could be able to take the throne, knowing that his smart relatives will help him.

I've already acknowledged that Adolin is a work in progress. Maturing is also about learning from your mistakes. Your kind of have to make them first, or you'll end up like Jasnah and not know how to apologize.

The most important step is the next one. Picking yourself back up and trying to do better.

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I think that's Adolin's biggest problem, he's a work in progress. We see Dalinar as he is now and forgive him all the terrible things he did in the past because we can see the finished product.

All we see of Adolin right now is a giant pile of brightly colored LEGO pieces and no picture of what it'll end up becoming.

[Sedside]

7 hours ago, Llayne said:

I understand your viewpoint, it's a common one. The phrase "Don't come to me with a problem unless you have a solution" is often thrown about. I don't buy into it completely, but that's a different discussion.

No, it's not common. I see a common viewpoint here being "whatever Adolin does it good, because Adolin is good". And I also didn't say, that he should have had a solution. I've said, that you don't necessary need to have a solution, you can criticise and make advices, in case people ask you for it. If Dalinar came to Adolin and asked him "hey, son, do you think I'm insane?" and Adolin said "yes, father, I think you are" it would be a completely different situation. In this case Adolin's fallback with his "let's just ignore this" would have been all right, as he was asked for his opinion and said it honestly. But he spoke to his father without his request. And even the way that conversation went shows us, that it wasn't an act of "being responsible":

Quote

“So we’re betting the future of our house on these visions now,” Adolin said flatly.

“I wouldn’t say that,” Dalinar replied. “If Sadeas did move against us, I wouldn’t simply let him shove us over. But I’m also not going to make the first move against him.”

“Because of what you’ve seen,” Adolin said, growing frustrated. “Father, you said you’d listen to what I had to say about the visions. Well, please listen now.”

“This isn’t the proper place.”

“You always have an excuse,” Adolin said. “I’ve tried to approach you about it five times now, and you always rebuff me!”

“Perhaps it’s because I know what you’ll say,” Dalinar said. “And I know it won’t do any good.” (1)

“Or perhaps it’s because you don’t want to be confronted by the truth.”

“That’s enough, Adolin.”

“No, no it’s not! We’re mocked in every one of the warcamps, our authority and reputation diminishes by the day, and you refuse to do anything substantial about it!”

“Adolin. I will not take this from my son.”

“But you’ll take it from everyone else? Why is that, Father? When others say things about us, you let them. But when Renarin or I take the smallest step toward what you view as being inappropriate, we're immediately chastised! Everyone else can speak lies, but I can't speak the truth? Do your sons mean so little to you?" (2)

Dalinar froze, looking as if he’d been slapped.

“You aren’t well, Father,” Adolin continued. Part of him realized that he had gone too far, that he was speaking too loudly, but it boiled out anyway. “We need to stop tiptoeing around it! You need to stop making up increasingly irrational explanations to reason away your lapses! I know it’s hard to accept, but sometimes, people get old. Sometimes, the mind stops working right.

“I don’t know what’s wrong. Maybe it’s your guilt over Gavilar’s death. That book, the Codes, the visions – maybe they’re all attempts to find escape, find redemption, something. What you see is not real. Your life now is a rationalization, a way of trying to pretend that what’s happening isn’t happening. But I’ll go to Damnation itself before I’ll let you drag the entire house down without speaking my mind on it!”

He practically shouted those last words. They echoed in the large chamber, and Adolin realized he was shaking. He had never, in all his years of life, spoken to his father in such a way. (3)

"You think I haven’t wondered these things?” Dalinar said, his voice cold, his eyes hard. “I’ve gone through each point you’ve made a dozen times over.”

“Then maybe you should go over them a few more.”

“I must trust myself. The visions are trying to show me something important. I cannot prove it or explain how I know. But it’s true.”

“Of course you think that,” Adolin said, exasperated. “Don’t you see? That’s exactly what you would feel. Men are very good at seeing what they want to! Look at the king. He sees a killer in every shadow, and a worn strap becomes a convoluted plot to take his life.”

Dalinar fell silent again.

“Sometimes, the simple answers are the right ones, Father!” Adolin said. “The king’s strap just wore out. And you… you’re seeing things that aren’t there. I’m sorry.” (4)

They locked expressions. Adolin didn’t look away. He wouldn’t look away.

Dalinar finally turned from him. “Leave me, please.”

“All right. Fine. But I want you to think about this. I want you to–”

“Adolin. Go.”

Adolin gritted his teeth, but turned and stalked away. It needed to be said, he told himself as he left the gallery.

That didn’t make him feel any less sick about having to be the one who said it. (5)

So, let me explain my point in parts, which I emphasized in the text:

1. So, here we see, that it's not the first time, when Adolin tried to talk to Dalinar about it. And Dalinar honestly tells him, that he doesn't want to talk about it, he doesn't need it, he knows everything Adolin would say. But Adolin's opinion is too valuable, so he must insist on carrying it to Dalinar, despite of his objections. Of course, 23 y/o man without any meaningful accomplishments would know much better, than the storming Blackthorn.
2. We see here, that Dalinar still doesn't want to listen to Adolin and asks him to stop. But Adolin presses Dalinar and uses their relations as an argument, that Dalinar must listen. Adolin doesn't show any respect to his father. He doesn't pay any credit to his unwillingness to talk about it. He thinks he is so smart, that he can teach his ancestor, how to live.
3. Here we see, that he isn't thinking about responsibility, consequences for his family or whatever else. The only thing that drives him further into this conversation is his uncontrolled temper. He just can't shut up and keep his words inside. This is absolutely the same thing, that happened with Sadeas's murder. Adolin is unable to control himself, he just does straight ahead with his instantaneous desire to spit it all out. Which he often regrets afterwards.
4. Here we see, that he is continuing to underestimate and disrespect his father. He almost says, that Dalinar is stupid and hadn't think about what he is doing. And this is, for a moment, the most powerful man in Alethkar, who doesn't know, what he is doing. And who is Adolin? But he definitely knows, what to do, and thinks he can teach Dalinar.
5. And here we see Dalinar trying to get rid of Adolin again, who, very reluctantly, but eventually agrees with it. And he feels sick after this conversation. Yes, he tries to justify himself, that it "needed to be said". And yes, even here Adolin still injects his "I want you to think about it", like Dalinar still didn't get it. He is too stupid, everything should be repeated to him three or four times in order to get to his brain.

7 hours ago, Llayne said:

Adolin spoke up when nobody else would. He exercised " the moral obligation to behave correctly toward or in respect of." (one of the definitions of responsibility by the way) He had a moral obligation to give his father the truth (as he saw it) when nobody else would. That was his burden. He forced his father to consider the fact that the visions may not be true, and contemplate what could happen if he continues down that path. He could have ruined his relationship with his father in the process... they were definitely strained until they finally talked.

Again, he only spoke up because he is:

1. his son;
2. arrogant enough to think he can teach his father.

Renarin didn't speak to Dalinar not because he was afraid to tell him the truth, but because he understands, that Dalinar is a storming Blackthorn, and Renarin himself is a wet nose. He just had enough respect for his father to understand, that Dalinar will deal with his problems on his own, or otherwise Renarin just had nothing to offer him as a help. And Adolin just came to him as a young hothead, not afraid of consequences, because this is his father, and started a shout match with his parent. Here is what Renarin actually said to Dalinar:

Quote

"Father?" Renarin asked. "Is there something I can do for you?"

“I wish there were, son.” Dalinar tapped the spine of the book lightly. “It’s ironic. This book was once considered one of the great masterpieces of political philosophy. Did you know that? Jasnah told me that kings around the world used to study it daily. Now, it is considered borderline blasphemous.”

Renarin gave no reply.

He asks, if he can help, and when Dalinar says he can't, Renarin doesn't insist. Dalinar knows better, what he needs, Renarin has empathy, and doesn't think he is smarter or whatever. He doesn't have as high conceit as his brother.

7 hours ago, Llayne said:

As an aside: I'm not sure where the idea of only giving feedback or critique when asked comes from. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. If I was on a bus and the driver was driving straight into a wall, I certainly wouldn't sit there and hope the driver asked for my input on his driving. I'd say something, and essentially take responsibility for the lives of everyone in the bus. (or House Kholin)

The idea comes from common sense. If you are in a bus and the driver is driving into a wall, your critique of him may probably just make the things even worse. And in this case it's probably not "critique", but a warning. Hard to model such an extreme situation, let's take something more usual. Like I'm drawing a painting (I wish I could), and you come to me, look at it and start saying "the perspective is wrong, this shadow looks like light, and add some reflex here, this volume looks flat". Perhaps I wouldn't kill you for that, but I definitely wouldn't want to go drink beer with you later. A different situation would be if I knew, that you are a great artist, or at least my teacher, and I came to you on my own, shown you my painting and said "hey, please, tell me, what's wrong here". In this case, if you'd said the absolutely same things I would have gladly accepted them and move along. Maybe even bought you some beer.

7 hours ago, Llayne said:

The most important step is the next one. Picking yourself back up and trying to do better.

IMO, he hadn't even made his first step yet. His steps are done for him by someone else every time.

7 hours ago, Llayne said:

I think that's Adolin's biggest problem, he's a work in progress. We see Dalinar as he is now and forgive him all the terrible things he did in the past because we can see the finished product.

He is, yes. But the majority of people, admiring him here, don't say this. They don't say "Adolin is irresponsible, spoiled, arrogant, self-asserted, egoistic goose, but hey, let's see who he develops into, he is still work in progress". They say "Adolin is sooo good, he is sooo sooo good, his goodness will save the world and revive Maya, heal Shallan's multiple persona stuff, Kaladin's depression, Teft's addiction and The Lopen's boasting". Sorry for sarcasm. Also, his progress is already lingering for quite too long. Too many occasions of him being irresponsible, I don't think this tradition is going to change. I just hope this will eventually lead to something already. And also his absolutely forgotten problems with keeping women. They were one of the main focuses of his character, but with Shallan's arrival they had just magically disappeared.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Sedside

[Llayne]

So... you seem to imply that people in authority or who are older are always right and should never be challenged. If that's the way you think then we're never going to agree on this.

Dalinar said he's thought about everything Adolin said many times, but it never changed his opinion. I'm using the results to justify my point here...but only AFTER Adolin spoke to him did he truly consider them and decide to abdicate.

Sometimes you do need to hear things from somebody else.

Just because he got angry when they talked doesn't mean he wasn't responsible... he was trying to do the right thing and his father kept trying to shirk him down. He refused to see something that was clear as day to Adolin which can be very frustrating. I've never said Adolin was perfect.

As far as the painting example... no lives were on the line, but Adolin believes they are on the line in the story. So it wasn't simple advice, it was a warning, to use your words.

I'm going to exit this conversation since we've been dancing around the same points for a while now. Half of our discussion has not been arguing the book, but the definition of responsibility.

I agree with you on a lot of points, but I get the impression you see everything Adolin does in a negative light, which is the exact opposite of the people you see who turn him into saint.

[Mage of Lirigon]

4 hours ago, Sedside said:

No, it's not common. I see a common viewpoint here being "whatever Adolin does it good, because Adolin is good". And I also didn't say, that he should have had a solution. I've said, that you don't necessary need to have a solution, you can criticise and make advices, in case people ask you for it. If Dalinar came to Adolin and asked him "hey, son, do you think I'm insane?" and Adolin said "yes, father, I think you are" it would be a completely different situation. In this case Adolin's fallback with his "let's just ignore this" would have been all right, as he was asked for his opinion and said it honestly. But he spoke to his father without his request. And even the way that conversation went shows us, that it wasn't an act of "being responsible":

Dalinar is not an island unto himself. As a highprince, the decisions he made can affect thousands, maybe even millions of people. He is not in a position to only accept advice when asked for, especially on decisions like allying with Sadeas. As one of the few persons who are in a position to give Dalinar unsolicited advice, it is his responsibility to tell Dalinar these things.

 

Quote

So, here we see, that it's not the first time, when Adolin tried to talk to Dalinar about it. And Dalinar honestly tells him, that he doesn't want to talk about it, he doesn't need it, he knows everything Adolin would say. But Adolin's opinion is too valuable, so he must insist on carrying it to Dalinar, despite of his objections. Of course, 23 y/o man without any meaningful accomplishments would know much better, than the storming Blackthorn.

So because Dalinar is the Blackthorn, he's too high and mighty to take advice, no matter how sensible it is? And Adolin's objection is sensible.

 

Quote

We see here, that Dalinar still doesn't want to listen to Adolin and asks him to stop. But Adolin presses Dalinar and uses their relations as an argument, that Dalinar must listen.

As I mentioned earlier, Dalinar is not a child who has the luxury of closing his ears to anything he doesn't like. He has a duty to listen to advice, especially from someone he supposedly felt comfortable enough with to abdicate to.

 

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Adolin doesn't show any respect to his father. He doesn't pay any credit to his unwillingness to talk about it. He thinks he is so smart, that he can teach his ancestor, how to live.

Allowing his father to make what he views as a mistake without any comment isn't showing respect. Just the opposite, in fact. If you saw your parent getting scammed by a known scammer, it's not respect to just let him do whatever he wants, especially when there are thousands of people who live and die based on your parent's decision.

 

Quote

Here we see, that he isn't thinking about responsibility, consequences for his family or whatever else

The very passages you quoted show the opposite.

 

4 hours ago, Sedside said:

“So we’re betting the future of our house on these visions now,” Adolin said flatly.

He brings up a very sensible concern about putting themselves in a position to allow Sadeas to undermine them completely, which actually did happen, mind you. Pointing out a potential tactical error is being responsible.

 

4 hours ago, Sedside said:

We’re mocked in every one of the warcamps, our authority and reputation diminishes by the day, and you refuse to do anything substantial about it!”

In Alethi society, perception is power. By allowing his reputation to decline, Dalinar was putting not only himself and his family in danger, but all his soldiers and their families as well. That's something Dalinar was ignoring, and it's salient of Adolin to bring it up.

 

Quote

Here we see, that he is continuing to underestimate and disrespect his father. He almost says, that Dalinar is stupid and hadn't think about what he is doing. And this is, for a moment, the most powerful man in Alethkar, who doesn't know, what he is doing. And who is Adolin? But he definitely knows, what to do, and thinks he can teach Dalinar.

He said that Dalinar is losing his wits due to age and grief, not that he was stupid. No matter how intelligent a person is, this can still happen to them. It's responsible of Adolin to point this out.

 

Quote

Again, he only spoke up because he is:

1. his son;

2. arrogant enough to think he can teach his father.

It's exactly because Adolin is Dalinar's son that he has a responsibility to speak facts to him when others can't or won't. That isn't arrogance.

 

Quote

He asks, if he can help, and when Dalinar says he can't, Renarin doesn't insist. Dalinar knows better, what he needs, Renarin has empathy, and doesn't think he is smarter or whatever. He doesn't have as high conceit as his brother.

Pretty sure Renarin just didn't really have anything to say.

 

Quote

The idea comes from common sense. If you are in a bus and the driver is driving into a wall, your critique of him may probably just make the things even worse. And in this case it's probably not "critique", but a warning. Hard to model such an extreme situation, let's take something more usual. Like I'm drawing a painting (I wish I could), and you come to me, look at it and start saying "the perspective is wrong, this shadow looks like light, and add some reflex here, this volume looks flat". Perhaps I wouldn't kill you for that, but I definitely wouldn't want to go drink beer with you later. A different situation would be if I knew, that you are a great artist, or at least my teacher, and I came to you on my own, shown you my painting and said "hey, please, tell me, what's wrong here". In this case, if you'd said the absolutely same things I would have gladly accepted them and move along. Maybe even bought you some beer.

This is a pretty faulty comparison. Dalinar isn't indulging in a harmless hobby that only has repercussions for him. The decisions Dalinar makes can get people killed, which is exactly why he needs to be willing to at least listen to advice, even if it's unsolicited.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[agrabes]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

This is one of those things where what is said and what is done are two completely separate things. Yes, assassination is said to be frowned upon, but as Jasnah shows us, assassin's are readily available it's only an issue if you're stupid enough to get caught. 

The office of the kings Wit is set up to mirror this. It is perfectly legal to kill the kings Wit openly, but you will be stripped of all lands and titles. So you simply assassinate him and it's all good. This is so accepted that when Amaram, playing his role as the paragon of honor as always, first arrives and sees Wit, he says in the midst of a public feast... 

It's no different than Sadeas and the tower. 

Alethi society, and Dalinar is trying to change this, is a mockery of honor in which if Adolin were exposed he'd be called a coward... But if everyone knew he did it and there was absolutely no way to prove it he'd be quietly respected. 

If Alethi society weren't the mockery that it is, Adolin wouldn't have any need to have killed Sadeas and I wouldn't defend his actions, because Sadeas wouldn't have been tolerated. 

I think you're both right and wrong about this.  I agree - things like assassination happen and they are only "wrong" if you're caught.  Fair enough - but if Adolin gets caught then he gets caught - he's now "wrong" in the eyes of Alethi society.  Getting caught includes there being wide, but unproven in court, knowledge that he did it.  

For Amaram's comment toward Wit - I think it's implied that he is suggesting someone should duel Wit or find some other way to scheme him into being killed in battle, etc.  For example, a major light eyes gets a minor lighteyes to publicly become enraged with Wit, challenge him to a duel and then kill him.  Not that someone should assassinate him - the end result is the same (Wit winds up dead) but one has a veneer of honor while the other is naked aggression and pettiness.  Most of the Alethi seem to put a lot of value on this kind of show - kill someone but make sure it isn't a literal assassination even if conceptually what they are doing is the same.  You can see this in the way Sadeas tries to eliminate Dalinar - he schemes for Dalinar to die in battle rather than trying to kill him in his sleep.

Tying this all back to Adolin's predicament - because he didn't use the normal Alethi smoke and mirrors, I believe that what he did would be viewed as distasteful by those in power in Alethkar pre-desolation, but probably not to the level that he would or could be thrown in jail or face real legal ramifications.  However, there's a real chance he and the Kholins would face rebellion from the house of Sadeas and its allies.  I think that chance still exists as of the end of OB with Ialai Sadeas' actions.  Sadeas' army is gone now, but they still have allies.  The non-Alethi allies are what he would need to be more concerned about in terms of moral judgment.  They don't take the same attitude towards war and competition as the Alethi and would probably view the murder of a political rival in a much more negative light.  With Dalinar trying to appease them and convince them that he isn't just putting up a front so that he can conquer them all, the news of his own son murdering a political rival would be very bad for Dalinar's plans for a major alliance.  Overall, I believe it's going to be viewed negatively by pretty much everyone except the people who were betrayed or abused by Sadeas.

As for whether what he did is right or wrong - I personally believe it was morally wrong both in terms of my own moral code and the in world morality.  You can justify it and say that greater good may have come from one evil deed and that is probably true, but it doesn't wipe away the fact that what he did was wrong.  There were other options available, but they would have been much more difficult to achieve.  For example - blackmailing Sadeas into compliance as a puppet leader, simply imprisoning him without legal justification and dealing with the repercussions, work with the mid or lower level leaders of house Sadeas and have them either reform from the inside or launch a coup against the top level leadership.  There are a lot of things they could have done instead of simply murdering Sadeas when the opportunity arose.  I liked the scene as it happened in the books, but let's not pretend that if Adolin really wanted to take the high ground he didn't have other options available.  The reason the scene was good was because it was morally grey.

[Calderis]

@agrabes it is spelled out in the book.

Quote

Killing the King’s Wit was legal. But by so doing, Sadeas would forfeit his title and lands. Most men found it a poor enough trade not to do it in the open. Of course, if you could assassinate a Wit without anyone knowing it was you, that was something different.

I doubt many Wits ever die at the cost of everything. 

I'm not saying any of the consequences of being caught would be different than what you say, but I stand by my original statements in regards to an unproven killing. 

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@agrabes it is spelled out in the book.

I doubt many Wits ever die at the cost of everything. 

I'm not saying any of the consequences of being caught would be different than what you say, but I stand by my original statements in regards to an unproven killing. 

Agreed - I doubt many people kill the Wit at the cost of all lands and titles.  And the book is directly saying it's an open secret that Wits have been assassinated, I'll grant you that.  Whether or not that is intended to mean society views assassinating nobility the same way as assassinating a Wit I don't know that we can ever really know.  I personally don't think so, but I think it's reasonable to believe they do.  

[insert_anagram_here]

A post on the concurrent thread "Why I think Sadeas death was right." (which btw might be the right thread to discuss this) reminded me of this WoB:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

It kind of felt like you let Adolin off the hook for murder.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I would say no, I didn't. There will be more implications there, but what you've gotta understand is, Adolin does not view what he did as murder. His dad is uncertain if it is. And his dad is the ultimate judge of legality. There will be far-reaching implications of this, but kind of the way a society like that works, if you didn't get caught and you are the son of the king, then you get a little... you know what I mean?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is it yet to be resolved?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yet to have the full extent of its implications, how about that? I would say that you are perfectly right if you were to say he did something morally wrong. There are many who would agree with you; there are many who would disagree with you. And that disagreement is part of what the story is about.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

I think this points out that political power dictates who is right or wrong in Alethi society. Being a warlike nation, as they are, they follow a general 'winners write history' cultural mentality. To support @agrabes argument, Wit wouldn't have as much political power as Sadeas did, so how Wit's assassination would be taken by Alethi society is beside the point here.

So I think that Alethi society, in general, might not oppose Dalinar's support for Adolin, despite murdering/assassinating Sadeas, but if a schism was to happen between  Ialai and the Kholins, the houses supporting Sadeas would probably side against Adolin.

[The Feruchemist]

On 2/18/2019 at 7:16 AM, Jace21 said:

That's fine, but I'll ask you the same question I asked @Sedside earlier in the thread. How do you think Sadeas should have died? 

Trying a social reform during the apocalypse is insane and the legal system couldn't touch him. I have no people disagreeing with me and saying Adolin shouldn't have killed Sadeas but a realistic alternative would be nice.

I am not one who thinks social reform at the time would be smart, it’s obvious to me that it wouldn’t work, and it’s not the right time. An assassination would’ve been smarter. I do believe that in some situations that is the best option. I don’t blame Adolin for doing what he did, but I refuse to say that it was ok, and it was right. I’m leaving it at that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

So I think that Alethi society, in general, might not oppose Dalinar's support for Adolin, despite murdering/assassinating Sadeas, but if a schism was to happen between  Ialai and the Kholins, the houses supporting Sadeas would probably side against Adolin.

And exactly that schism is what I'm actually building on happening as a consequence, which would be so bittersweet considering how Adolin just tried to help his poor father and in reality put everything Dalinar built on the brink of collapsing again. And I'm not only talking about Alethkar, but the whole alliance.

That would be the kind of consequences, that people, like me, who think Adolin got too much slack, are looking for. Opening up Sadeas' soldiers to Odium's influence is a consequence, that we know, but Adolin doesn't, which means it really wasn't a consequence for him. But Sadeas' murder threatening to destroy everything Dalinar built, possibly leaving humanity in disarray in the war for their lives, sowing distrust? I think, that is something even Adolin would feel remorse about.

1 hour ago, The Feruchemist said:

I am not one who thinks social reform at the time would be smart, it’s obvious to me that it wouldn’t work, and it’s not the right time. An assassination would’ve been smarter. I do believe that in some situations that is the best option. I don’t blame Adolin for doing what he did, but I refuse to say that it was ok, and it was right. I’m leaving it at that.

True. Morality is always a bit of a subjective topic, but saying, that what Adolin did was his only option is disingenuous, I think.

Edited February 19, 2019 by SLNC

[Bigmikey357]

53 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And exactly that schism is what I'm actually building on happening as a consequence, which would be so bittersweet considering how Adolin just tried to help his poor father and in reality put everything Dalinar built on the brink of collapsing again. And I'm not only talking about Alethkar, but the whole alliance.

That would be the kind of consequences, that people, like me, who think Adolin got too much slack, are looking for. Opening up Sadeas' soldiers to Odium's influence is a consequence, that we know, but Adolin doesn't, which means it really wasn't a consequence for him. But Sadeas' murder threatening to destroy everything Dalinar built, possibly leaving humanity in disarray in the war for their lives, sowing distrust? I think, that is something even Adolin would feel remorse about.

True. Morality is always a bit of a subjective topic, but saying, that what Adolin did was his only option is disingenuous, I think.

The Sadeas Coalition is dead. Ialai is in discrace, her hand-picked general is dead, her army in tatters. Those that were supporting Sadeas depended on Torol. The other Highprinces might rebel but they'll never unite under the banner of another. If they don't recognize that their petty squabbles don't matter then they can be outmaneuvered without much threat of a civil war.  Ialai is still a significant threat, but I believe a more personal one.

[insert_anagram_here]

19 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The Sadeas Coalition is dead. Ialai is in discrace, her hand-picked general is dead, her army in tatters. Those that were supporting Sadeas depended on Torol. The other Highprinces might rebel but they'll never unite under the banner of another. If they don't recognize that their petty squabbles don't matter then they can be outmaneuvered without much threat of a civil war.  Ialai is still a significant threat, but I believe a more personal one.

I don't think you should dismiss Ialai so easily, as she is involved with Mraize after all. Ruthar seemed to easily take her side against Jasnah, yes granted mostly because he disapproves of Jasnah's 'pagan' beliefs (I wonder if he'll accept her as Queen), but I do think these small details in OB could be foreshadowing turmoil in political alliances.

Edited February 19, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

[Sedside]

10 hours ago, Llayne said:

So... you seem to imply that people in authority or who are older are always right and should never be challenged.

No, that's not what I imply.

10 hours ago, Llayne said:

Just because he got angry when they talked doesn't mean he wasn't responsible... he was trying to do the right thing and his father kept trying to shirk him down. He refused to see something that was clear as day to Adolin which can be very frustrating. I've never said Adolin was perfect.

If you think going around and telling people what to do, just because you think it's right, is being responsible, then this conversation is indeed pointless.

10 hours ago, Llayne said:

I'm going to exit this conversation since we've been dancing around the same points for a while now. Half of our discussion has not been arguing the book, but the definition of responsibility.

Responsibility is a huge thing in this book. And I actually feel kind of insulted about Kaladin in this point. There are so many examples of him taking responsibility for almost anything he touches, that this desperate attempt to imagine any kind of resposibility taken by Adolin just kind of pisses me off.

10 hours ago, Llayne said:

I agree with you on a lot of points, but I get the impression you see everything Adolin does in a negative light, which is the exact opposite of the people you see who turn him into saint.

I don't view anything Adolin does in a negative light. I view him as a character, who has his purpose in the story, and has his personal traits. I like a lot of things in Adolin, actually. I just want to try to focus on the fact, that he is not so good so many people here think he is. Adolin hardly needs protection from me in this community, you know

9 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

He brings up a very sensible concern about putting themselves in a position to allow Sadeas to undermine them completely, which actually did happen, mind you. Pointing out a potential tactical error is being responsible.

I won't argue with you further, as I already get it's quite pointless. The only thing I want to say is that "what character says aloud" !== "what character thinks and feels". He may say whatever he thinks it is right to say, but his feelings and his own understanding that he got too far speak for themselves.

[Bigmikey357]

Adolin may need to be more responsible. Not sure if I agree but there's an argument there, it's not totally unreasonable to interpret it that way. And it's certainly true that responsibility is a present theme in the narrative. But if Adolin takes on too little responsibility, Kaladin takes on way too much. He burdens himself with way more than he has control over, and Dalinar ain't helping matters. He piles on responsibilities until a person has no choice but to break because his shoulders are so broad. We see this with Shallan too, expecting her to be Jasnah's equal in scholarship. He's going to have to manage his Radiants better if he wants them to be an effective organization again. More Radiants should help. Him learning the limits of the Orders will help more.  If I were to agree with the premise that Adolin lacks responsibility, Dalinar being overbearing could be a foundational reason.

[insert_anagram_here]

Comparing Adolin to the main characters shouldn't be this thread's topic. But since you bring it up, I think main characters are supposed to teach us about trying to be stronger that who we are. They might seem 'too much' compared to Adolin, because he's there to bridge the gap between us, the readers, and them, the protagonists. So we might see him taking their path in future books and take us with him. But not taking responsibility isn't part of that path but a step back in my opinion, it's part of the lesson.

The end is near, their loved ones are in danger, whatever they do they have to do it as soon as possible. This is no time for avoiding responsibility but putting whatever they got in the fight and if they manage to save them nothing else matters. Taking responsibility, placing that burden on themselves even if they aren't sure they can lift it or if it will crush them underneath (like a bridge), is the point of the books.

I am not sure if Adolin will get there, I certainly don't think he is currently there, but taking responsibility is a part of him that needs to be addressed in order for him to go down that path.

Edited February 20, 2019 by insert_anagram_here
Rephrased some bits. Sorry for my English

[Sedside]

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

But if Adolin takes on too little responsibility, Kaladin takes on way too much. He burdens himself with way more than he has control over, and Dalinar ain't helping matters. He piles on responsibilities until a person has no choice but to break because his shoulders are so broad. We see this with Shallan too, expecting her to be Jasnah's equal in scholarship.

Yeah, agree.

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Comparing Adolin to the main characters shouldn't be this thread's topic. But since you bring it up, I think main characters are supposed to teach us about trying to be stronger that who we are. They might seem 'too much' compared to Adolin, because he's there to bridge the gap between us, the readers, and them, the protagonists. So we might see him taking their path in future books and take us with him. But not taking responsibility isn't part of that path but a step back in my opinion, it's part of the lesson.

Well, maybe you are right, they are just very indicative. I mean, we can use them as an example, which stress the meaning well. But I personally don't see anything bad in it. Actually, I wouldn't call it comparing one character to the other. It's more about comparing their cases, just as an illustration. I could take Navani as a secondary character and compare her to Kaladin as well. And, regarding what @Bigmikey357 said, actually Navani's situation with responsibility is much better, than Kaladin's. Navani knows exactly, what she is in control of and what she's not. Kaladin is a hyperresponsible person, and it is not a compliment. Why I mention Kaladin (well, not considering the Shallan factor, which, I admit, bothers me a lot), is because I can easily take a good case from Kaladin's experience just to illustrate the difference in their approach.

[insert_anagram_here]

7 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Yeah, agree.

Well, maybe you are right, they are just very indicative. I mean, we can use them as an example, which stress the meaning well. But I personally don't see anything bad in it. Actually, I wouldn't call it comparing one character to the other. It's more about comparing their cases, just as an illustration. I could take Navani as a secondary character and compare her to Kaladin as well. And, regarding what @Bigmikey357 said, actually Navani's situation with responsibility is much better, than Kaladin's. Navani knows exactly, what she is in control of and what she's not. Kaladin is a hyperresponsible person, and it is not a compliment. Why I mention Kaladin (well, not considering the Shallan factor, which, I admit, bothers me a lot), is because I can easily take a good case from Kaladin's experience just to illustrate the difference in their approach.

I didn't mean that it's a bad thing to compare characters, just not the topic of this thread. Go ahead and open a new one and I'll gladly join.

[Sedside]

Just now, insert_anagram_here said:

I didn't mean that it's a bad thing to compare characters, just not the topic of this thread. Go ahead and open a new one and I'll gladly join.

Oh, all right  I will, later on

[Pathfinder]

18 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I don't think you should dismiss Ialai so easily, as she is involved with Mraize after all. Ruthar seemed to easily take her side against Jasnah, yes granted mostly because he disapproves of Jasnah's 'pagan' beliefs (I wonder if he'll accept her as Queen), but I do think these small details in OB could be foreshadowing turmoil in political alliances.

My one minor quibble here is we have from Mraize's own mouth to Shallan's ears that he has nothing to do with Ialai. He is only watching her to make sure she does not screw up their plans. Her and Sadeas were too unpredictable to work with. Now it could be said he was lying to Shallan, but personally I do not see what Mraize would have to gain from such a lie. Add to that after everything that happened in Oathbringer I do not see what Mraize would gain from allying with Ialai. So personally I do not see there being a connection between Mraize and Ialai. But I can see why you think that and respect that you feel otherwise. 

[agrabes]

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

My one minor quibble here is we have from Mraize's own mouth to Shallan's ears that he has nothing to do with Ialai. He is only watching her to make sure she does not screw up their plans. Her and Sadeas were too unpredictable to work with. Now it could be said he was lying to Shallan, but personally I do not see what Mraize would have to gain from such a lie. Add to that after everything that happened in Oathbringer I do not see what Mraize would gain from allying with Ialai. So personally I do not see there being a connection between Mraize and Ialai. But I can see why you think that and respect that you feel otherwise. 

I think that may be true (Ghostbloods are probably not equal allies of Ialai Sadeas), but I also think the main point of the response is that the idea that Ialai is now toothless is not correct.  Mraize and the Ghostbloods could easily be using House Sadeas as a means to their own ends - which we don't know yet.  It might serve Mraize's purpose to sow discord between the Alethi High Princes.  And to that end, he might find allies for Ialai.  I also think that though the Sadeas armies are now mostly dead or turned to Odium, that doesn't mean Ialai can't find allies elsewhere in Alethkar or otherwise.  After all, the Alethi are notoriously ambitious and it's been shown time and again that they really don't like the fact that they are beholden to a king.  Any time that Dalinar tries to get any of them to team up together, they rebel against the idea.  Yes, the desolation has now come and they all know that now, but that will probably not stop some of them from setting out on their own.  In fact, some already have if I remember right (it's been a while since I've read OB).  There are all kinds of logic they could use - for example "I need to protect my own people from the Desolation, not spend the lives of my Alethi warriors to defend the defenseless people of X nation while my own people are unprotected!".  Ialai could easily create a faction of Alethi High Princes that subscribe to this theory that would either split from Dalinar's alliance and just do their own thing or even actively fight against it.

But, this is getting a little off topic.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think that may be true (Ghostbloods are probably not equal allies of Ialai Sadeas), but I also think the main point of the response is that the idea that Ialai is now toothless is not correct.  Mraize and the Ghostbloods could easily be using House Sadeas as a means to their own ends - which we don't know yet.  It might serve Mraize's purpose to sow discord between the Alethi High Princes.  And to that end, he might find allies for Ialai.  I also think that though the Sadeas armies are now mostly dead or turned to Odium, that doesn't mean Ialai can't find allies elsewhere in Alethkar or otherwise.  After all, the Alethi are notoriously ambitious and it's been shown time and again that they really don't like the fact that they are beholden to a king.  Any time that Dalinar tries to get any of them to team up together, they rebel against the idea.  Yes, the desolation has now come and they all know that now, but that will probably not stop some of them from setting out on their own.  In fact, some already have if I remember right (it's been a while since I've read OB).  There are all kinds of logic they could use - for example "I need to protect my own people from the Desolation, not spend the lives of my Alethi warriors to defend the defenseless people of X nation while my own people are unprotected!".  Ialai could easily create a faction of Alethi High Princes that subscribe to this theory that would either split from Dalinar's alliance and just do their own thing or even actively fight against it.

But, this is getting a little off topic.

Although true, Jasnah handled Ialai every time easily, and now she is Queen. Each time Ialai tried to cause a problem for Dalinar, Jasnah shut her down and "put her in her place". Personally I do not see her being much of a threat to Jasnah and Co, but I recognize that that is a personal opinion and we do not have enough information to truly rule in either direction. Also I agree it is getting off topic. So guess we will just have to RAFO! 

[Bigmikey357]

I for one never meant to imply that Ialai had all her teeth pulled. Brandon went out of his way to say she's intelligent, dangerous. I fully expect her to cause problems. I'm juss saying her resources are limited with her loss of prestige and her army's destruction. She's in no way strong enough to gather a bunch of dissenting Highprinces under her banner for instance. But there are several ways she can still stick it to Team Honor in general and The Kholins specifically. She still has money and her lands so far have barely been touched by the Fused. She still has some contacts that don't rely on the prestige of House Sadeas. She still has a rolodex of knives from the shadows. And she's a woman who feels she has been scorned.

[Use the Falchion]

I could see Ialai turning to Odium ala Moash/Vyre...actually that's one unholy couple I shouldn't want to think about, but might work. Like, it's be full of hate...stuff, but it could work. It could be used as a foil for Jasnah and Kaladin if those two got together. And if Ialai turns, she'd have an ally in Mr. T, now that he's on Team Odium. So I wouldn't count her out just yet. 

 

Turning the convo back to Adolin real quickly, I have nothing to add. But every time I see this thread or another Adolin-focused threat pop up to the top, I think to myself "Begun, the Adolin Wars have."