Timothy Posted February 6, 2019 Posted February 6, 2019 It was stated in the dawnchant that when the humans came from Ashyn and after they were given shinovar that the spren started going over to them and somehow in the end they ended up with honor as their god. What if Cultivation somehow felt that Honor betrayed her and the singers, who seem to lean more towards cultivation with their biology, and took some direct part in killing off Honor? We know from a WoB that she did help Honor when Odium came over, but maybe this was before he sided with humans and they accepted him as their dog? Maybe after Honor and Cultivation managed to lock Odium into the system (by making him invest himself on braize?) they had a falling out, which is why she isn't taking a direct role in helping the radiants, who seem to lean more towards honor. It feels weird that while the radiants have spren from both H and C their orders are based around the heralds, who are definitely from honnor. The only other significant number I can think of aside from ten and nine is four, but I don't see how it fits with the other patterns. Bridge four always getting target over the rest seems more than just a coincidence (in japan four is the number of death) and by putting on the tinfoil hat maybe we could argue that they were being cultivated that way by weeding out the weak and cultivating bridge four as a whole, but I don't think it's very solid. Number ten goes for the whole Roshar system sans Braize, so maybe it's not Tenevast's number but the H and C combined number? Fabrials seem to work with the ten types of gems too, which makes two magic systems work with ten and one with nine. To summarize, what if Honor siding with the invading humans over the singers led to a confrontation between him and the humans and Cultivation and the singers? Could this have been the first Desolation? The timeline could work like this: Humans arrive from Ashyn and are granted land. Raze goes with them. Honor and C manage to lock Raze in Blaze. Humans start getting access to the surges by bonding spren. Honor sides with them and they invade. Cultivation stays with the singers. Humans conquer urithiru. The singers lose and Cultivation stops being close to Honor. Odium offers to help the singers. They accept and a second desolation starts. The human leaders plus Taln become Heralds to stop the fused. Humans conquer most of the main continent and start fighting each other. Third desolation comes and the radiant orders are formed. Nohadon stuffs. ????????????????????????????????????????? The oathpact is broken. Tanavast starts dying. False desolation. ???????????????????????????????????????? Cultivation and Odium start plotting against each other ???????????????????????????????????????? Current timeline. ???????????????????????????????????????? Hoid gets away with something and finds happiness. ????????????????????????????????????????
Quantus he/him Posted February 6, 2019 Posted February 6, 2019 The order is off. We recently learned that the Heralds were alive and part of the initial migration from Ashyn, and we know from the Stormfather that the Heralds predate the Humans getting access to surges, and also that the herald Ishar was the one that created/founded the Oathpact (the Stormfather implied that this was due to his Bondsmith powers, but it may have been a single event that Bond them all and granted them the powers, so maybe it was just his Idea in some way). We also know (from the visions I think) that the Heralds and the Oathpact were in response to the emergence of the Fused. Which really means those first few years/decades after the Migration were all kinds of eventful. I personally dont think the humans ever "conquered" Urithiru so much as built it along with the other Dawncities (there's a decent theory that it was done via a massive act of Soulcasting combined with Lightweaver wave-form shaping to propagate out the fractal patterns). 2
+Oltux72 he/him Posted February 6, 2019 Posted February 6, 2019 Just now, Quantus said: The order is off. We recently learned that the Heralds were alive and part of the initial migration from Ashyn, and we know from the Stormfather that the Heralds predate the Humans getting access to surges, and also that the herald Ishar was the one that created/founded the Oathpact They had Surges (and "Voids"?) on Ashyn. They ruined that world with them. So why did they lose them? That is the missing piece. A magic based on disease seems quite portable. So they had something else that those who stayed at home eventually replaced. What was that? And was it the reason the proto-Heralds made the deal? That they regained lost surges?
Timothy Posted February 6, 2019 Author Posted February 6, 2019 20 minutes ago, Quantus said: The order is off. We recently learned that the Heralds were alive and part of the initial migration from Ashyn, and we know from the Stormfather that the Heralds predate the Humans getting access to surges, and also that the herald Ishar was the one that created/founded the Oathpact (the Stormfather implied that this was due to his Bondsmith powers, but it may have been a single event that Bond them all and granted them the powers, so maybe it was just his Idea in some way). We also know (from the visions I think) that the Heralds and the Oathpact were in response to the emergence of the Fused. Which really means those first few years/decades after the Migration were all kinds of eventful. I personally dont think the humans ever "conquered" Urithiru so much as built it along with the other Dawncities (there's a decent theory that it was done via a massive act of Soulcasting combined with Lightweaver wave-form shaping to propagate out the fractal patterns). I don't think they weren't heralds back then. They only turned to Honor later on and Ash might have been born on Roshar. Didn't the stormfather say that they predate the radiant orders? Everyone sans Ash probably had access to the surges via the shin magic. You might be right about the Dawncities though, we don't know who made them and it might have been the humans.
Quantus he/him Posted February 6, 2019 Posted February 6, 2019 15 minutes ago, Timothy said: I don't think they weren't heralds back then. They only turned to Honor later on and Ash might have been born on Roshar. Didn't the stormfather say that they predate the radiant orders? Everyone sans Ash probably had access to the surges via the shin magic. You might be right about the Dawncities though, we don't know who made them and it might have been the humans. Yup. They definitely were not heralds at the time of the migration, but were present. And Yes, they predate the Orders according to the Stormfather. Quote Willshaper Wallar [PENDING REVIEW] Were the Heralds alive for the human exodus from Ashyn? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. They were not Heralds then, but they all made that trip. I believe. You can't nail me down on that one, because it's possible that Ash was born after, but I don't think so. Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)
Timothy Posted February 6, 2019 Author Posted February 6, 2019 16 minutes ago, Quantus said: Yup. They definitely were not heralds at the time of the migration, but were present. And Yes, they predate the Orders according to the Stormfather. Yeah, that's why I said that Heralds predate the orders, not surgebinding.
Quantus he/him Posted February 6, 2019 Posted February 6, 2019 8 minutes ago, Timothy said: Yeah, that's why I said that Heralds predate the orders, not surgebinding. Oh, You're considering what the folks of Ashyn did to also be Surgebinding. Sorry, I misunderstood. I tend to consider Surgebinding to be specifically the Radiants, and distinct from both Fabrial tech and Voidbinding even though they are all based on the same underlying Surges. The disease-based magic of Ashyn is something else, Id think.
Timothy Posted February 6, 2019 Author Posted February 6, 2019 7 minutes ago, Quantus said: Oh, You're considering what the folks of Ashyn did to also be Surgebinding. Sorry, I misunderstood. I tend to consider Surgebinding to be specifically the Radiants, and distinct from both Fabrial tech and Voidbinding even though they are all based on the same underlying Surges. The disease-based magic of Ashyn is something else, Id think. No, I don't know if that was surgebinding too. What I meant was that on roshar people first became surgebinders without many checks on them, it wasn't until Nohadon that the orders as we know them were formed.
Quantus he/him Posted February 6, 2019 Posted February 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, Timothy said: No, I don't know if that was surgebinding too. What I meant was that on roshar people first became surgebinders without many checks on them, it wasn't until Nohadon that the orders as we know them were formed. That was Ishar according to the Stormfather, not Nohadon. But either way, the Heralds existed as heralds before the spren figured out how to mimic what they were doing (and the Honorblades) and create Radiants, regardless of the actual secular organization of the Orders.
Timothy Posted February 6, 2019 Author Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Quantus said: That was Ishar according to the Stormfather, not Nohadon. But either way, the Heralds existed as heralds before the spren figured out how to mimic what they were doing (and the Honorblades) and create Radiants, regardless of the actual secular organization of the Orders. Yeah, I know. I always assumed Nohadon had a lot to do with it though, since his scene was about how not spren were as discerning as honorspren with how they granted their surges. Is that right? Now that you mentioned that I seem to remember something about soren mimicking the heralds. If the mimicking wasn't just the sword part you are right, and I think you are. Were the Heralds first, then surgedinbers and later on the oathpact? Maybe it was something like: Humans invade without bonding spren. Humans win. The fused appear. Heralds? Spren join humans? Oathpact Does this timeline make more sense if the Heralds came first? The last three all have big ???. Did the heralds become Heralds before or after the Fused? I'm inclined to believe that they only became Heralds to stop the Fused, but the name Herald of the Almighty makes me believe they might have been chosen before that. I don't know whether the oathpact was before or after the spren mimicked the Heralds either. Edited February 6, 2019 by Timothy
CrazyRioter she/her Posted February 6, 2019 Posted February 6, 2019 We know the Oathpact was created in response to the Fused. Whether Honor was empowering the people who would become the Heralds before then we don't know though.
RShara she/her Posted February 6, 2019 Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) The Heralds and the Oathpact are simultaneous. The Heralds were formed for the Oathpact. So they can't be separate events. Given that the Oathpact was a response to the Fused, the Fused would have to predate the Oathpact. And the current form of surgebinding was based on the spren figuring out how to copy the powers of the Honorblades, so the spren bond would have to post-date the Oathpact. And *Rayse didn't necessarily follow the humans, nor did they necessarily worship him. He could move around on his own, and after getting humans to destroy Ashyn, I'm sure Roshar the planet was going to be next on his list anyway. You might be interested in my theory on how Ashyn's magic works: Also, it's Honor and Cultivation. The typoes in the thread title is driving me nuts Edited February 6, 2019 by RShara 2
Ripheus23 Posted February 7, 2019 Posted February 7, 2019 On 2/6/2019 at 9:03 AM, RShara said: Also, it's Honor and Cultivation. The typoes in the thread title is driving me nuts It's making me think of Charlie the Unicorn vs. Charlie the Unicron and "your head a splode". And so: Honor, Honer Cultivation, Clativation Ambition, Abmitian Autonomy, Autunumo Endowment, Ednownent Ruin, Riun Preservation, Pesrevation Dominion, Doniminon Devotion, Deoviton 1
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