Selish magic system Shardic mechanics

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

I just re-listened to Elantris, and I’m still a little confused as to just how the magic system(s) relate to Devotion and Doninion. Because as I understand it, all magic on Sel is related to both, but certain subsystems unambiguously seem more related to one than the other. For example, AonDor is extremely ‘Devotion-ee’ whereas Dakhor and Bloodsealing seem almost entirely what I’d expect something of Dominion to be given that it was presumably a very dark Shard.

Do we know whether the various subsystems of Sel are equally related to both Shards? Or are some more skewed toward one than the other? Because the latter certainly seems to be the case at a glance.

[Quantus he/him]

They are all a blending to some extent, because they all arose after Devotion and Dominion were Shattered and their powers where stashed and mixed in the Cognitive Realm to make the Dor.  All the various Selish magic systems are regionally locked because of the fact that the Dor is in the Cognitive realm (where location matters) as compared to basically every other magic system that is sourced in a shard residing in the Spiritual Realm.  The biggest influence on a magic system being more Dominion vs Devotion (as far as I can tell) is that Skaze and Seons where created during the shattering (described as the sparks that where thrown off during the event), with Skaze being of Dominion and Seons being of Devotion.  So any of the magic systems that have a lot of direct influence from one of those kinds of beings are going to skew in their respective directions.  Chayshan, for example, doesnt seem to have any affinity either way, and also doesnt involve either type. 

[Ripheus23]

Dominion's remnants code for the nationalism aspect, since the meaning of "Dominion" here is not so much "Domination" as "Domain." Devotion's remains code for the patriotism (national devotion) aspect. (I think the secret trigger for becoming an Elantrian is some subconscious identification with the city of Elantris, or something along that line.)

[Weltall]

Yeah, AonDor leans more Devotion because of the involvement of the Seons (proximity to Devotion's Perpendicularity probably didn't hurt either) and the magic of the Dakhor monks is heavily influenced by the Skaze, but all the magics are going to have some influence from both Shards. We've also got Forgery which could easily be seen as balanced between the two Shards (you need devotion to study and knowledge to make a good soulstamp and you're exercising dominion over whatever you're affecting with it) and we don't really know enough about other systems to guess how they'd fit in. Just have to wait for the Elantris sequels, I guess.

15 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Dominion's remnants code for the nationalism aspect, since the meaning of "Dominion" here is not so much "Domination" as "Domain." Devotion's remains code for the patriotism (national devotion) aspect. (I think the secret trigger for becoming an Elantrian is some subconscious identification with the city of Elantris, or something along that line.)

Actually, it pretty much is Dominion in the 'Domination' sense. Brandon's said that the reason the Skaze are power-hungry is because of the nature of Dominion's intent. The idea of 'Domain' really doesn't carry any inherent drive to expand (nor does it really fit the template of other Shardic intents) and most of the theories about that meaning of Dominion were premised on a limited understanding of why Sel's magics are region-locked which has since been clarified so we know that it has nothing to do with the nature of the Shards before Odium came calling. We even had a pre-Arcanum Unbounded confirmation that Dominion's nature isn't related to region.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Weltall

[Ripheus23]

12 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Actually, it pretty much is Dominion in the 'Domination' sense. Brandon's said that the reason the Skaze are power-hungry is because of the nature of Dominion's intent. The idea of 'Domain' really doesn't carry any inherent drive to expand (nor does it really fit the template of other Shardic intents) and most of the theories about that meaning of Dominion were premised on a limited understanding of why Sel's magics are region-locked which has since been clarified so we know that it has nothing to do with the nature of the Shards before Odium came calling. We even had a pre-Arcanum Unbounded confirmation that Dominion's nature isn't related to region.

Argh.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Yeah, Dominion is a Shard for which I think Odium probably did the Cosmere a service in destroying, because I think that had it survived, it almost certainly would have ended up causing problems eventually.

[Quantus he/him]

22 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Yeah, Dominion is a Shard for which I think Odium probably did the Cosmere a service in destroying, because I think that had it survived, it almost certainly would have ended up causing problems eventually.

All in the Vessels interpretation, methinks.  Granted Dominion (and also Ambition, Ruin, and Odium) are going to be harder to swing toward the benevolent than say Devotion (Synonymous with Love), but Ruin could have been Natural Entropy, Ive seen (in DC Comics) where the primal/Godlike  Love Entity is called The Predator, and such things.  Dominion as a concept only gets bad when it treats those under it's power poorly; pair it with a balancing Shard (Devotion probably would have done well, Honor too) and you dont have get get Dominion=Tyranny

[Weltall]

To add to what @Quantus said, I was interested in how Brandon conceived Sel so I asked him at the SF Oathbringer signing if there were intentional Confucian parallels in the Shards in the same way we know written Chinese influenced the idea of form-based magic and he said it was deliberate. Depending on the Vessel, an idea like 'Dominion' could easily produce something like classical Chinese civilization which was stable and not (usually) tyrannical. Pair it with Devotion and you're much more likely to get something like that. This goes hand in hand with Brandon's assertion that none of the Shards are inherently good or evil.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

17 minutes ago, Weltall said:

This goes hand in hand with Brandon's assertion that none of the Shards are inherently good or evil.

Yeah, but some of the Shards ARE more inherently likely to turn their Vessels more good or more evil than others are; I have a hard time imagining how Devotion, which represents love and compassion, could result in a malevolent Vessel. And Ruin and Odium are both vastly more likely to result in malevolent-leaning Vessels I think. Dominion probably has more wiggle room, but probably not that much if the Skaze are any indication.

[RShara she/her]

41 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Yeah, but some of the Shards ARE more inherently likely to turn their Vessels more good or more evil than others are; I have a hard time imagining how Devotion, which represents love and compassion, could result in a malevolent Vessel. And Ruin and Odium are both vastly more likely to result in malevolent-leaning Vessels I think. Dominion probably has more wiggle room, but probably not that much if the Skaze are any indication.

Mmmm. Love of self, narcissism to the nth degree could do it. Or love and compassion only for your own kind/type/caste/whatever. Love of excess, love of violence, love to obsession. There are a number of ways it can be turned bad.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

35 minutes ago, RShara said:

Mmmm. Love of self, narcissism to the nth degree could do it. Or love and compassion only for your own kind/type/caste/whatever. Love of excess, love of violence, love to obsession. There are a number of ways it can be turned bad.

Maybe, although I have the feeling that would be equivocating on what the Shard’s intent is; those are two very different meanings of the same label. At any rate, Shardic intents typically aren’t self-directed.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Fanghur Rahl

[Quantus he/him]

14 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Yeah, but some of the Shards ARE more inherently likely to turn their Vessels more good or more evil than others are; I have a hard time imagining how Devotion, which represents love and compassion, could result in a malevolent Vessel. And Ruin and Odium are both vastly more likely to result in malevolent-leaning Vessels I think. Dominion probably has more wiggle room, but probably not that much if the Skaze are any indication.

Devotion without restraint or Context gives you Stalkers.  Odium (ie Divine Wrath) with restraint and context give you, well, Passion.  Ruin accepted as Entropy and a natural part of a Temporal world gives you any number of your classic benevolent Death figures.  Ambition if it maintains a healthy dose of Empathy could be a great force for self-betterment without needing to do so at the cost of others.  Honor done wrong gives you the classic self-righteous Paladin trope or the darker parts of the Samurai era's. Cultivation done wrong gives you any number of horror genre mad scientists.  Preservation done wrong gives you the worst helicopter parent imaginable, or maybe just a frozen/glass planet. 

The Shards are Primal Intent without Context, it's the Vessel's that can (but sometimes dont) provide that context, because they at least start off as whole beings, rather than the shattered Whatever that Adonalsium was reduced to. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Agreed. I’m not saying it’s inevitable, just that some intents are likely more inherently dangerous than others when all-consuming. I think Devotion without restraint would, if anything, lead to something like a benevolent dictator like VIKI from I Robot. And while that’s certainly less than ideal, is much rather live with that than with Odium. 

Stalkers don’t actually love the person. Not really. They’re just obsessed with them. There’s a difference. All love can be seen as a type of obsession, but not all obsession can be seen as love.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Fanghur Rahl

[Quantus he/him]

Just now, Fanghur Rahl said:

Agreed. I’m not saying it’s inevitable, just that some intents are likely more inherently dangerous than others when all-consuming. I think Devotion without restraint would, if anything, lead to something like a benevolent dictator like VIKI from I Robot. And while that’s certainly less than ideal, is much rather live with that than with Odium. 

Fair enough, though I think the likelihood, or lack of it, has a lot less to do with the Intent itself and far more with the cultures (and their relative leanings) that the vessels where drawn from.  "Honor" means something vastly different in modern day America than it did in feudal Europe, and both look different than Ancient China.  For that matter, I honestly think you'd have a better chance of getting a...Benevolent isnt the right word, but...Positive(?) Odium in a society that was more used to violence and how to channel it productively than 21st century earth has anymore.  Too many scars from World Wars and then the Cold War era in the shadow of Nuclear Mutually Assured Destruction.  Granted I never lived in those times so there's a good chance Im romanticizing them more than they deserve; but even if the times themselves sucked, I do think the odds of getting a better psychological mix for controlling that particular Shard would be better.