Shard Blade mechanics?

[MrHobbes343]

So dumb question, If a radiant were to ask their spren to turn into "Shard Wire" would it still have the cutting power of the blade?

Would it be possible to have 50ft long hair thin shard wire and have it windmill everything in the region to slivers?

[Jace21]

There is a limit to how large a Shardweapon can be, but we don't know that it is. 

It is certainly possible that it is by mass, in which case the 50ft wire would be fine, but if distance from the radiant is an issue, it may need to be smaller.

As to whether or not, it is tough to say. We know the flat of a Shardblade won't cut, whereas the edge obviously does. Will the wire count as sharp enough? 

Assuming it does then it would retain the soul cutting abilities of your regular Shardblade.

Sorry I can't give you anything more definitive, maybe those more knowledgeable of WoBs will be able to help some more.

Something worth noting is that Spren metal still has material properties that may prevent this being feasible. Who knows if it can even form flexible wire? You then also have the issue that, depending on the materials physical properties, said wire could snap upon hitting anything it couldn't cut, such as Plate, and that could do weird things to the Spren.

[Quantus]

Best we can tell they can only turn into a single-piece metal object (comes up regularly on the Shardbow What-If).  We've seen one that turns into a blunt instrument because it doesn't like hurting people, so there's no actual Edge Requirement, and since he's actively against the idea I dont think he'd do spiritual damage even if he were shoved through a person via superstrength, etc.  So I think it would really depend on how "Sharp" the radiant and/or spren in question Think of wire as being in general. Wire only becomes sharp when it's pulled against something with reasonable force, but at rest it's flexible and dull and non-threatening.  Basically I think you'd need a Radiant or Spren that was familiar enough with piano wire as a Weapon, enough to believe deep down in their base definitions of things, that it's a dangerous cutting weapon.

[Kon-Tiki]

A Lightweaver with a shardgarotte is not the worst idea, if it works. Thus far Kaladin appears to be the only one who is pushing the boundary on what a living shardblade can actually be, though, and that might be because he has a broader vision of what can be a weapon than most others

[Scion of the Mists]

40 minutes ago, MrHobbes343 said:

So dumb question, If a radiant were to ask their spren to turn into "Shard Wire" would it still have the cutting power of the blade?

Would it be possible to have 50ft long hair thin shard wire and have it windmill everything in the region to slivers?

The general consensus is that Shardweapons have to be rigid metal (which rules out things like bowstrings).  Even if you were able to make a 50ft long piece of razor sharp metal, you almost certainly wouldn't be able to wield it - its center of mass would be 25ft away from you, resulting in a ridiculous torque.  

 

2 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

A Lightweaver with a shardgarotte is not the worst idea, if it works. 

Why are you specifying a Lightweaver?  Is the idea to sneak up on people and then garrote them?  I'm not sure what benefit that would have over just stabbing them.  

[+Invocation]

Imagine a Shardwhip. That'd be a lot more feasible than a giant wire because the force on a wire that long would be difficult to handle to say the least. Even a spren equivalent to a steel whip might not be feasible, though, because they can get a little wonky sometimes, but could be a good weapon for certain orders.

 

[MrHobbes343]

19 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

The general consensus is that Shardweapons have to be rigid metal (which rules out things like bowstrings).  Even if you were able to make a 50ft long piece of razor sharp metal, you almost certainly wouldn't be able to wield it - its center of mass would be 25ft away from you, resulting in a ridiculous torque.  

 

Why are you specifying a Lightweaver?  Is the idea to sneak up on people and then garrote them?  I'm not sure what benefit that would have over just stabbing them.  

The advantage is they can't scream as their eyes burn? as I believe it takes several seconded to die even by shard-blades 

[Weltall]

Brandon's said that blunt shardweapons can still do the same Spiritual damage, it just takes more effort for it to actually get at the soul than something sharp or pointy. That same WoB also makes it clear that (setting aside weight) they'll have the expected properties of a normal Physical object of the relevant size and shape, so even if you could get a spren to imitate piano wire properly, it wouldn't cut just by swinging it in the general direction of a target; you'd need to apply the same sort of force that you'd apply to ordinary wire.

20 minutes ago, MrHobbes343 said:

The advantage is they can't scream as their eyes burn? as I believe it takes several seconded to die even by shard-blades 

I don't believe we've ever seen this happen, once the blade transects your spine, you're dead. The burning eyes are a side-effect but by that point you're already too dead to feel it yourself. Ym's interlude shows death by Shardblade from the victim's perspective and it was instantaneous.

[Kon-Tiki]

2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Why are you specifying a Lightweaver?  Is the idea to sneak up on people and then garrote them?  I'm not sure what benefit that would have over just stabbing them.  

I don't disagree. I'm sort of reaching for a practical use of a shardwire.

[Jace21]

6 hours ago, Quantus said:

So I think it would really depend on how "Sharp" the radiant and/or spren in question Think of wire as being in general. Wire only becomes sharp when it's pulled against something with reasonable force, but at rest it's flexible and dull and non-threatening.  Basically I think you'd need a Radiant or Spren that was familiar enough with piano wire as a Weapon, enough to believe deep down in their base definitions of things, that it's a dangerous cutting weapon.

I see your point but I am not sure how much the view of the wielder would matter.

Wire doesn't "become sharp" when pulled against something with reasonable force. It will cut, but thats not the same thing.

Based on the WoB about the Shardrock and what we know of Lifts Shardrod I dont think the 50ft wire wouldn't have the physical realm cutting ability of a Shardblade unless the wire itself had an edge.

It would still cut if used as a garrote but, like any wire it would because of the force applied, despite its lack of an edge, not because of it. That would then "get into the spirit" like the WoB says and mess them up.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Wire doesn't "become sharp" when pulled against something with reasonable force. It will cut, but thats not the same thing.

Which doesn't matter. Even a blunt instrument can pierce the soul with enough force. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, a Radiant's blade. When it takes other forms, does it take on any different properties? So, like, if Kaladin beat someone with the butt of his Sylspear, would it still do something in regards to the soul?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Would he still hit the soul? That is theoretically possible to make happen. It requires a lot of work. That is theoretically possible.

source

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, the Shardfork. A very versatile, Shard-whatever. Would it be possible to do, like, a Shardrock, or something, that would go in a catapult?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, it has more variety than people would think, but it isn't limitless, what they can become. But that would totally be possible.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

And what would a Shardrock do if it hits you?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Uh, bean them on the head and be really strong. If you can get into the spirit, if you can start getting past the skin and stuff, you can do some serious damage.

source

Wire isn't "sharp" but it still breaks the skin and enters. Once that happens it'll get into the soul. 

[Quantus]

13 hours ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

I see your point but I am not sure how much the view of the wielder would matter.

Wire doesn't "become sharp" when pulled against something with reasonable force. It will cut, but thats not the same thing.

Based on the WoB about the Shardrock and what we know of Lifts Shardrod I dont think the 50ft wire wouldn't have the physical realm cutting ability of a Shardblade unless the wire itself had an edge.

It would still cut if used as a garrote but, like any wire it would because of the force applied, despite its lack of an edge, not because of it. That would then "get into the spirit" like the WoB says and mess them up.

My thought on this is that Intent and self-definition always matter, even with inanimate objects (which is why a bullet is always either 100% inside or outside a speed bubble depending on where IT thinks it is).  Basically, a Garrote is a Strangulation tool that happens to sometimes cut things, but by contrast a wire Clay Cutter is fundamentally a Cutting tool.  So while Id think in most cases a Shard-wire would act blunt like a shard-Rock unless the physical forces broke the skin and force the spiritual interaction, but I could easily see a former potter tunred Radiant looking at a giant stone Thundercast and saying "I Got This". 

 

And more, I think it likely would be able to effortlessly cut Inanimate Objects the way a shardblade can but a a Shardrock would not (by the sound of @Calderis's WOB).  We know per Hemalurgy mechanics that touching the blood is one way to access the Spiritual Aspect, so by the sound of it any shard-weapon can do spiritual damage if it meets blood. The distinction on a spren in a Wire for that fundamentally believes it to be a cutting tool, such a thing might well be able to cut stone and dead things as easy as a shardblade. 

[Jace21]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

Which doesn't matter. Even a blunt instrument can pierce the soul with enough force. 

Wire isn't "sharp" but it still breaks the skin and enters. Once that happens it'll get into the soul. 

Did you read the whole post? If so I clearly didn't express myself very well, I apologise. I agree 100%, what I was trying to say is that since the wire isn't "sharp" it wouldn't cut the physical in the same effortless way a Shardblade would.

I then went on to say that id used as a garrote (or other way of breaking the skin) it would cut the physical in the same way as a regular garrote, but then will pierce the soul once it reaches it.

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

My thought on this is that Intent and self-definition always matter, even with inanimate objects (which is why a bullet is always either 100% inside or outside a speed bubble depending on where IT thinks it is). 

Do you have the WoB saying this is why the bullet is either in or out? I remember him saying that it was, but I assumed that was just based on where the majority of the bullet was for meta reasons to avoid things ripping themselves in half. I don't remember him saying it was based on the cognitive perception of the object.

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Basically, a Garrote is a Strangulation tool that happens to sometimes cut things, but by contrast a wire Clay Cutter is fundamentally a Cutting tool.  So while Id think in most cases a Shard-wire would act blunt like a shard-Rock unless the physical forces broke the skin and force the spiritual interaction, but I could easily see a former potter tunred Radiant looking at a giant stone Thundercast and saying "I Got This". 

I could imagine this, but would the potter then have to use the wire in the same way as a clay cutter for it to work? He couldn't just whirl the wire around his head and kill everyone, because he would know it doesn't work that way,

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

And more, I think it likely would be able to effortlessly cut Inanimate Objects the way a shardblade can but a a Shardrock would not (by the sound of @Calderis's WOB).  We know per Hemalurgy mechanics that touching the blood is one way to access the Spiritual Aspect, so by the sound of it any shard-weapon can do spiritual damage if it meets blood. The distinction on a spren in a Wire for that fundamentally believes it to be a cutting tool, such a thing might well be able to cut stone and dead things as easy as a shardblade. 

If cognitive perception matters I imagine that it would either cut physically like a Blade or it wouldn't, I don't see why a distinction would be made between animate and inanimate. But I agree that any Shardobject would damage the spiritual if brought into contact with it.

[Calderis]

I don't think a garrote would cut inanimate matter specially. If it is able to pierce, it would cut like a Shardblade... But drag a wire against rock and it's not going to pierce. 

Shardblades are unnaturally sharp, even without the the soul cutting property. A wire isn't 

[Quantus]

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Do you have the WoB saying this is why the bullet is either in or out? I remember him saying that it was, but I assumed that was just based on where the majority of the bullet was for meta reasons to avoid things ripping themselves in half. I don't remember him saying it was based on the cognitive perception of the object.

Took me forever to find, I was searching for "Bullet" but the example used was actually a Spear.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105-17th-shard-forum-qa/#e1150

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

I could imagine this, but would the potter then have to use the wire in the same way as a clay cutter for it to work? He couldn't just whirl the wire around his head and kill everyone, because he would know it doesn't work that way,

I kinda think that would come down to what was more narrative dramatic.  There was this same example recently in the Magnus Chase YA books, an einherjar with a magic clay cutter just like we're talking about, and they were slinging it around and decapitating monsters left and right.  But yes, I could also see it going the other way and requiring a steady grip on both sides and similar drawing motions to the normal clay potter use.  

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

If cognitive perception matters I imagine that it would either cut physically like a Blade or it wouldn't, I don't see why a distinction would be made between animate and inanimate. But I agree that any Shardobject would damage the spiritual if brought into contact with it.

I think there has to be some amount of difference because there's an observable difference in effect.  if you had an unbonded shardblade and you threw it out a window to hide an assassination (as an entirely random example), it would smoothly cut through/annihilate anything the blade touched along the way (its why you can tunnel with a shardbade without wedging it in the stone against the flat of the blade, so Ive always considered it still a realmic action rather than pure physical sharpness.  Meanwhile, if you get hit with a Shardrod or ShardBoulder, it would only do normal physical damage unless you found some other way to make it interface with the Soul; in the case of a mortal target you can do so via the Blood (per Cosmere-wide Hemalurgy mechanics).  But with some outside gate tot eh Soul, the Shard-rock will just do normal blunt impact damage, breaking things along the way but not blinking bits out of existence the way shardblades seem to.  However, in the example of a Potter-turned Radiant who manifested a clay-cutter as their totem Cutting Tool of Choice, I could fully see that wire acting as a more permanent-acting cutting edge the way a shard-blade does, because a cutting edge is fundamental to it's cognitive definition/identity.  Of course, were that to be the case it would be one of the more dangerous (to wield) forms we've seen, right up there with some sort of Whip-sword

[Jace21]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

Took me forever to find, I was searching for "Bullet" but the example used was actually a Spear.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105-17th-shard-forum-qa/#e1150

Yeah this is the WoB I remembered, I just hadn't remembered the line about how it views itself. I still think "how it views itself" is probably related to whether it's center of mass is in or out, or something similar. Even with cognitive perception playing a role there has to be some kind of rule of thumb for non-sentient objects.

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

I kinda think that would come down to what was more narrative dramatic.  There was this same example recently in the Magnus Chase YA books, an einherjar with a magic clay cutter just like we're talking about, and they were slinging it around and decapitating monsters left and right.  But yes, I could also see it going the other way and requiring a steady grip on both sides and similar drawing motions to the normal clay potter use.  

True, but Rick Riordan =/= Brandon Sanderson. I think for the 

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

I think there has to be some amount of difference because there's an observable difference in effect.  if you had an unbonded shardblade and you threw it out a window to hide an assassination (as an entirely random example), it would smoothly cut through/annihilate anything the blade touched along the way (its why you can tunnel with a shardbade without wedging it in the stone against the flat of the blade, so Ive always considered it still a realmic action rather than pure physical sharpness.  Meanwhile, if you get hit with a Shardrod or ShardBoulder, it would only do normal physical damage unless you found some other way to make it interface with the Soul; in the case of a mortal target you can do so via the Blood (per Cosmere-wide Hemalurgy mechanics).  But with some outside gate tot eh Soul, the Shard-rock will just do normal blunt impact damage, breaking things along the way but not blinking bits out of existence the way shardblades seem to.  However, in the example of a Potter-turned Radiant who manifested a clay-cutter as their totem Cutting Tool of Choice, I could fully see that wire acting as a more permanent-acting cutting edge the way a shard-blade does, because a cutting edge is fundamental to it's cognitive definition/identity.  Of course, were that to be the case it would be one of the more dangerous (to wield) forms we've seen, right up there with some sort of Whip-sword

I guess this would depend on whether or not it has to be wielded like a clay-cutter for it to cut at all. But I agree that if it could cut no matter how it was wielded then it would cut the inanimate like a normal Shardblade.

[Quantus]

On 12/1/2018 at 9:10 PM, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

True, but Rick Riordan =/= Brandon Sanderson. I think for the

That was my point, I think it will come down to the style of the author and the narrative needs of such a character; but I dont think there is much in realmic mechanics that would Require if to operate one way or the other.

[bobbobkilu]

If mass is the only limitation an atom thick length of shardwire could be many astronomical units long. I did a back of the envelope calculation for 2kg of shardwire (approximated to sodium for a lightweight metal) and got a length of over 900AU. The furthest known object in the solar system is 1/10th that distance from the sun. (Pluto is on average 23 AU from the sun.)

An atom thick length of wire would be invisible. With one person holding each end you could cut an entire city in half without anyone ever seeing it coming. You could cut planets in half (not that that would do anything).

And people were excited about lightweavers with laser beams.

[Scion of the Mists]

@Ookla the Mildly Warm How would you wield something that's miles long?

[Jace21]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Mildly Warm said:

If mass is the only limitation an atom thick length of shardwire could be many astronomical units long.

Mass is limiting true, but that doesnt mean a Spren can form a material 1 atom thick.

Likewise Blades are still a physical material, albeit an incredibly strong one, so it's possible the wire would snap and I hate to think what that'd do to your Spren.

Even if it didn't, could a Spren physically manifest if part of it would be so far away from you?

I think there is a lot of flexibility in what Spren can do/become, but Brandon likes limits so I doubt this is possible.

[bobbobkilu]

3 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

How would you wield something that's miles long?

You just need a second person holding the other end.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Mass is limiting true, but that doesnt mean a Spren can form a material 1 atom thick.

Likewise Blades are still a physical material, albeit an incredibly strong one, so it's possible the wire would snap and I hate to think what that'd do to your Spren.

Even if it didn't, could a Spren physically manifest if part of it would be so far away from you?

I think there is a lot of flexibility in what Spren can do/become, but Brandon likes limits so I doubt this is possible.

Without knowing more about the limits we can't really say if it is or is not possible. But a reasonably sized length of wire could still easily be miles long. And since blades seem to be essentially indestructible, I don't think snapping would be an issue.

We know that blades can be given to another person and remain regardless of distance, and that applies to living blades as well, as we see when shallan gives kaladin her blade.

Finally: of course Brandon won't allow it. But its fun to wildly speculate before he has a chance to crush my hopes and dreams.

[Jace21]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Mildly Warm said:

Without knowing more about the limits we can't really say if it is or is not possible. But a reasonably sized length of wire could still easily be miles long. And since blades seem to be essentially indestructible, I don't think snapping would be an issue.

Blades seem to be, but its hardly fair to assume that will be the same as a wire. If you get an incredibly strong RL metal and draw it into a wire you could snap it. A steel bar? No. Steel wire? Yes. One molecule thick would be easier.

It is possible it's investiture makes it indestructible but both Lerasium and Atium seem to follow normal rules for metals, it seems likely Blademetal does too.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Mildly Warm said:

We know that blades can be given to another person and remain regardless of distance, and that applies to living blades as well, as we see when shallan gives kaladin her blade.

We know they can be caused to remain with focus and training for Deadblades. It seems to be easier with Liveblades.

We do not know about distance though. The outermost mark is between the Warcamps and the Plains for Deadblades and between Shallan and Kal for Liveblades (200ft).

We also know a Spren would struggle to leave Roshar and can't move too far from their Radiant without losing the Bond, so some kind of outer limit seems likely, even if dont know what it is.

[bobbobkilu]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Blades seem to be, but its hardly fair to assume that will be the same as a wire. If you get an incredibly strong RL metal and draw it into a wire you could snap it. A steel bar? No. Steel wire? Yes. One molecule thick would be easier.

The sharp of the blade is under a millimeter thick, and no shardblade has ever chipped. A 2kg half millimeter aluminum wire is 3.5km of wire. It doesn't have to be ridiculously thin to be ridiculously long.

 

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

We do not know about distance though. The outermost mark is between the Warcamps and the Plains for Deadblades and between Shallan and Kal for Liveblades (200ft).

We also know a Spren would struggle to leave Roshar and can't move too far from their Radiant without losing the Bond, so some kind of outer limit seems likely, even if dont know what it is.

Maybe so... but how would it be counted with a long object? Maybe the radiant remaining in physical contact with one end would be enough.

[Jace21]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Mildly Warm said:

The sharp of the blade is under a millimeter thick, and no shardblade has ever chipped. A 2kg half millimeter aluminum wire is 3.5km of wire. It doesn't have to be ridiculously thin to be ridiculously long.

You were originally talking about a wire one molecule thick, much thinner than the edge of a blade. As to blades chipping or not, the only time I can think when we have seen a blade in a position to chip would be in Blade on Plate situations which are rare and inconclusive since plate cracking or shattering may disperse the force enough to avoid chipping the blade. Parrying a blade was probably done with the flat rather than edge on edge. That or they do chip but when next summoned have reformed. I struggle to believe Sprenmetal is truly indestructible because that's not how Brandon works.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Mildly Warm said:

Maybe so... but how would it be counted with a long object? Maybe the radiant remaining in physical contact with one end would be enough.

 It would probably fine within a certain limit, but I doubt it could be that long. We have WoB that Syl is about 15ft long as a lance I think, 6-7 ft long as a spear and about 6ft long as a sword. We also have a WoB that the largest Syl can manifest is about human-sized, so while there is clearly some flexibility to that, it sounds like there are max dimensions, not just a cap due to volume or mass.

Either way, I am not convinced Shardwire can cut at all, so we'll have to RAFO and see if Brandon writes it.