The Shard of Weakness

[Ripheus23]

Unless there's a way to adapt this possible Intent to that of another already-delineated Shard, I want to propose Weakness as a candidate for an undeclared Shardic Intent. My sole argument for this idea is that there is a branch of Jewish theology (a response to the Holocaust IIRC) in which the idea of God as supremely weak is analyzed. (I will look for a source to cite if needed; off the top of my head, I feel like I remember the idea showing up in Elie Wiesel's work.)

Now, if there was a Shard of Weakness thus, I would imagine a Shard of Might too---again, unless one of the already-named Shards could be interpreted with that Intent (e.g. Ambition).

[+Invocation]

Might could very feasibly be Dominion. yes? Harmony could be interpreted as an analogue to a supremely weak God, as he is stuck between the essentially opposite Ruin and Preservation.

[Jace21]

Knowing what I do of Brandon's personal beliefs, I doubt he would make a defining trait of Adonalsium be weakness. For the most the Shards seem to be based on personality traits and weakness doesn't really fit.

[+Invocation]

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Knowing what I do of Brandon's personal beliefs, I doubt he would make a defining trait of Adonalsium be weakness. For the most the Shards seem to be based on personality traits and weakness doesn't really fit.

The key words there are "defining trait of Adonalsium." The Shards =/= what Adonalsium was directly. The Shattering could have gone other ways, with other Shards being formed, suggesting it was not a matter of what Adonalsium was, but what the people doing the Shattering were like/wanted/exemplified (some of them for each). For example, Ati wanted to contain the force of destruction that would become called Ruin so that it couldn't do a ton of damage a la Odium. Rayse, however, directly wanted to be an embodiment of emotion/hate. That was his choice. For the rest of the Shards, as far as I'm aware, it is unclear what the circumstances were that lead to them being formed the way they are, but it's possible that one of the Vessels-to-be was having second thoughts about what they were doing and caused a Shard of Weakness to form.

[Scion of the Mists]

16 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Now, if there was a Shard of Weakness thus, I would imagine a Shard of Might too---again, unless one of the already-named Shards could be interpreted with that Intent (e.g. Ambition).

Not all Shards have opposite Intents:

Quote

Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Do all Shards have a direct paired opposite intent...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, I would say no, they do not all have a directly paired opposite intent.

source

[Jruesch2]

14 hours ago, Invocation said:

Might could very feasibly be Dominion. yes? Harmony could be interpreted as an analogue to a supremely weak God, as he is stuck between the essentially opposite Ruin and Preservation.

I doubt Harmony would be considered a weak Shard, as he holds two powers that together can do more than they could when separate. Because he holds two opposite Shards, it is feasible to believe that he is actually more powerful than most other Shards. Perhaps if Harmony became Discord, you might have an argument there, but since that doesn't seem likely to happen...

[+Invocation]

20 minutes ago, Jruesch2 said:

I doubt Harmony would be considered a weak Shard, as he holds two powers that together can do more than they could when separate. Because he holds two opposite Shards, it is feasible to believe that he is actually more powerful than most other Shards. Perhaps if Harmony became Discord, you might have an argument there, but since that doesn't seem likely to happen...

Harmony has issues doing anything because of the opposite Shardic Intents he is stuck between, though. In his own words, it feels like he's being pulled between massive gravitational forces, each equally powerful. So by raw power, he is stronger, but because he has trouble finding the gray area, he's neutered in what he can do. If he became Discord, he might ironically be more powerful, because then he could choose at random to Preserve or Ruin, but at least he'd be able to make use of the obscene amount of power he has.

[Jruesch2]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Harmony has issues doing anything because of the opposite Shardic Intents he is stuck between, though. In his own words, it feels like he's being pulled between massive gravitational forces, each equally powerful. So by raw power, he is stronger, but because he has trouble finding the gray area, he's neutered in what he can do. If he became Discord, he might ironically be more powerful, because then he could choose at random to Preserve or Ruin, but at least he'd be able to make use of the obscene amount of power he has.

I suppose that depends on what you classify as powerful. It says in The Hero of Ages "If they [Ruin and Preservation] fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created." It seems you consider the destructive power greater, but I personally would consider the creative power greater. Sazed also realizes that the Shards belong together and he can make them touch without destroying each other. Finally, we know that Preservation and Ruin fought all the time. What did they achieve? Not much. Discord would be a constant representation of that battle that had happened between Preservation and Ruin, therefore meaning nothing would get done at all.

[Ripheus23]

4 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Not all Shards have opposite Intents:

I was thinking of a Shard of Might not for the sake of opposition to Weakness per se but because being almighty is another, much more common description of God.

15 hours ago, Invocation said:

Might could very feasibly be Dominion. yes?

I'm going to suggest that, aside from "Autonomy," Dominion is the Shard with the most easily misunderstood name. We usually think "Dominion" and "Domination" together, but Sanderson was going more with "Dominion"-"Domain," as in nationality, hence the nationalization of Selish magic. I think.

[+Invocation]

32 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

I'm going to suggest that, aside from "Autonomy," Dominion is the Shard with the most easily misunderstood name. We usually think "Dominion" and "Domination" together, but Sanderson was going more with "Dominion"-"Domain," as in nationality, hence the nationalization of Selish magic. I think.

Still could be equated to Might. It requires strength to hold onto your own territory.

 

1 hour ago, Jruesch2 said:

I suppose that depends on what you classify as powerful. It says in The Hero of Ages "If they [Ruin and Preservation] fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created." It seems you consider the destructive power greater, but I personally would consider the creative power greater. Sazed also realizes that the Shards belong together and he can make them touch without destroying each other. Finally, we know that Preservation and Ruin fought all the time. What did they achieve? Not much. Discord would be a constant representation of that battle that had happened between Preservation and Ruin, therefore meaning nothing would get done at all.

Honestly, everything would be solved if Sazed could just pick up another Shard. Autonomy would free him up nicely. 

[Jace21]

15 hours ago, Invocation said:

The key words there are "defining trait of Adonalsium." The Shards =/= what Adonalsium was directly. The Shattering could have gone other ways, with other Shards being formed, suggesting it was not a matter of what Adonalsium was, but what the people doing the Shattering were like/wanted/exemplified (some of them for each). For example, Ati wanted to contain the force of destruction that would become called Ruin so that it couldn't do a ton of damage a la Odium. Rayse, however, directly wanted to be an embodiment of emotion/hate. That was his choice. For the rest of the Shards, as far as I'm aware, it is unclear what the circumstances were that lead to them being formed the way they are, but it's possible that one of the Vessels-to-be was having second thoughts about what they were doing and caused a Shard of Weakness to form.

I disagree. The shattering could have gone other ways =/= shards are not what Adonalsium was.

You are making a lot of assumption here. We don't know if Rayse wanted to be Odium specifically. He could have just wanted power that left his mind intact and Odium matched the best. We don't know why Ati got Ruin, we know Ati believed that all things must end and was a generous man, but as far as I know the idea that he wanted to contain the damage is only theory.

What we do know is the Rayse "bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context". Regardless of how shards were assigned this heavily implies the traits they embody were all part of Adonalsium.

Not his only traits(could have shattered differently), but they were still present, making a shard of weakness unlikely.

I think a Vessel-to-be having doubts (if that is what influenced the way Adonalsium split, also unknown) would have received something like "Caution" rather than Weakness.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Jace21

[Jruesch2]

3 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Still could be equated to Might. It requires strength to hold onto your own territory.

 

Honestly, everything would be solved if Sazed could just pick up another Shard. Autonomy would free him up nicely. 

You're probably right, and that would be awesome to see. The question is, what repercussions would that have on the rest of the Cosmere?

[Ripheus23]

4 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Still could be equated to Might. It requires strength to hold onto your own territory.

Then all the Shards could be equated to Might as it requires strength to destroy, create, fulfill ambition, cultivate, hate, honor, etc.?

[Steel Inquisitive]

Adonalsium died.... So he did have weakness in him.

Maybe devotion has the "weakness" part of Adonalsium. Loving everyone too much to hurt them even as they killed him.... But that comes with the assumption that Ado was, in fact, a being not a force of nature.

[Jace21]

51 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

Adonalsium died.... So he did have weakness in him.

Maybe devotion has the "weakness" part of Adonalsium. Loving everyone too much to hurt them even as they killed him.... But that comes with the assumption that Ado was, in fact, a being not a force of nature.

Literal vulnerability to death is not the same as weakness as a personality trait that could be assigned as a Shard. The Shards currently known seem to be more like aspects of a personality not literal things like "killable".

An unwillingness to defend himself could have contributed to his death, sure, but it would be the unwillingness that got a Shard named after it, not the fact he can die itself. As you say several shards could be interpreted as part of Adonalsiums willingness to die, Devotion (love for attackers), Preservation (of his attackers), Ruin (self-directed), Odium (self-loathing), Autonomy (allow attackers their freedom).

[Steel Inquisitive]

Many of the shards aren't personality traits. See Ruin, Preservation, and to a lesser degree, Cultivation. These are all forces of nature. Not personality traits.

Defining weakness is complicated.... It means different things to different people. For instance: if a nation falls to another nation one could say it was weak. Or was it just weaker than the nation that attacked? Does it matter? 

a shard of weakness would be just as hard to define as autonomy.

[Jace21]

4 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

Many of the shards aren't personality traits. See Ruin, Preservation, and to a lesser degree, Cultivation. These are all forces of nature. Not personality traits.

Defining weakness is complicated.... It means different things to different people. For instance: if a nation falls to another nation one could say it was weak. Or was it just weaker than the nation that attacked? Does it matter? 

a shard of weakness would be just as hard to define as autonomy.

Except as I said earlier in the thread, I don't believe they are forces of nature. After all Odium/Hatred is independent of amy single being, but is defined as "God's own divine hatred". The Shards of Ruin, Preservation and Cultivation then are not forces of nature in themselves, but Adonalsium's desire to Ruin/Preserve/Cultivate assigned to 1/16th of his power.

Autonomy and Weakness could both have multiple meanings, true, as you say they mean different things to diffferent people. But whatever meaning(s) apply will be because they applied to Adonalsium, other peoples opinion doesnt matter. So while I agree that the concept of weakness depends on definition, it is for that reason I think any "weaknesses" Adonalsium has would fall under another trait.

Eg. He was weak because he wouldnt kill his attackers (preservation). I see weakness more as a consequence than as a fundamental trait or belief by itself.

[Steel Inquisitive]

11 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Except as I said earlier in the thread, I don't believe they are forces of nature. After all Odium/Hatred is independent of amy single being, but is defined as "God's own divine hatred". The Shards of Ruin, Preservation and Cultivation then are not forces of nature in themselves, but Adonalsium's desire to Ruin/Preserve/Cultivate assigned to 1/16th of his power.

Here's a quote from mistborn:

Quote

RUIN: An ancient Terris god, Ruin is the force of destruction, entropy, and decay in the world.

Perhaps I'm just being obstinate but it does say "force".

Quote

Autonomy and Weakness could both have multiple meanings, true, as you say they mean different things to diffferent people. But whatever meaning(s) apply will be because they applied to Adonalsium, other peoples opinion doesnt matter. So while I agree that the concept of weakness depends on definition, it is for that reason I think any "weaknesses" Adonalsium has would fall under another trait.

Each vessel has a big impact on how their shard is expressed so other's opinions DO matter. I'll agree that Weakness is not the name it would go by... Maybe something like Frailty, Instability, or Vulnerability.

[Jace21]

On 11/17/2018 at 6:20 AM, Steel Inqusitive said:

Perhaps I'm just being obstinate but it does say "force".

Ruin as the comination of Ati holding the Shard of Ruin is seen to be a force by non-cosmere aware people, sure. But Ruon as formed when Adonalsium first shattered? I still maintain it is the desire to destroy. After all, all the shards are all capable of the same things, it is only the intent (desire/compulsion) that changes.

 

On 11/17/2018 at 6:20 AM, Steel Inqusitive said:

Each vessel has a big impact on how their shard is expressed so other's opinions DO matter. I'll agree that Weakness is not the name it would go by... Maybe something like Frailty, Instability, or Vulnerability.

Impact? Yes. Big impact? Debatable. But even so, all the vessel can do is guide the intent already there (Adonalsium's view) so my point still stands.

[Steel Inquisitive]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

Ruin as the comination of Ati holding the Shard of Ruin is seen to be a force by non-cosmere aware people, sure. But Ruon as formed when Adonalsium first shattered? I still maintain it is the desire to destroy. After all, all the shards are all capable of the same things, it is only the intent (desire/compulsion) that changes.

Quote

 

"For Ruin, there is Preservation. Time immemorial! Eternity! And each time I push, YOU push back. Even when dead, you stopped me, for we are forces. I can do nothing! And you can do nothing! Balance! The curse of our existence. "

—Ruin to Vin after her ascension.

...... I think I win

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

Impact? Yes. Big impact? Debatable. But even so, all the vessel can do is guide the intent already there (Adonalsium's view) so my point still stands.

As too "debatable"

Quote

Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

Ado's view doesn't seem to matter to me.... He was..... Not human.... Whether he was a being or a force is still debated. Either way with him having made cosmere he kinda invented these concepts to start with.... It gets complicated!

I'm REALLY enjoying this conversation btw

Edited November 19, 2018 by Steel Inqusitive

[Fanghur Rahl]

The other problem is that ‘weakness’ is entirely a relative term; it has no kind of objective referent in reality. Nor does ‘might’ for that matter. 

[Jace21]

18 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

...... I think I win

I'll give you that, I am struggling to describe what I mean when have to use quite ambiguous terms. I suppose what I mean is that they are forces in as much as they are incredibly powerful and driven to do a certain thing obsessively (preserve, ruin, cultivate) they are not just passive forces such as usually exist in our universe.

Ruin has been described as the embodiment of entropy, for example. But entropy in our universe is a gradual movement toward disorder, or randomness, almost always involving breaking things down. But entropy isn't actively trying to destroy the world, it is just something that happens by itself.

There is no specific "preservation" force in our universe but Ruin himself says that the Shard pushed back even when not directed by a mind. It wasn't just natural tendencies or molecular bonds resisting Ruin, it was active opposition by power that needs/desires/is compelled to Preserve.

 

18 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

As too "debatable"

Ado's view doesn't seem to matter to me.... He was..... Not human.... Whether he was a being or a force is still debated. Either way with him having made cosmere he kinda invented these concepts to start with.... It gets complicated!

Ado definitely wasn't human I agree. He may have been at some point but not by the time he was shattered. Likewise I wouldn't classify the Vessels as human anymore, they have been too changed by the power they wield.

But whether he was a relatable being or something more, the intents came from him. And I think that since the current intents are an active will to do/achieve something, it must be because a part of Adonalsium had the will to do/achieve that thing. What makes them now able be considered forces is the lack of context surrounding that singular drive.

Quote

Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

This WoB is weird, he says they can have a big effect on how it is interpreted, but at the same time the intent is always the same.

The interpretation I like, admittedly my opinion is like having 10 possible interpretations of the word "Honor". Pre-shattering Adonalsium subscribed to 5 of those so the intent of Honor focuses on those 5. As the vessel Tanavast could then filter it through any combination of 1 or more of those 5 interpretations. But he couldn't decide that he preferred interpretation 7 and use that because it was never a part of the intent to begin with, even if it a meaning most people could accept.

That way it accounts for the huge variation in possible meanings of a word while accepting that in many ways Ado invented the concepts (as related to the Shards).

Hopefully I did a better job explaining myself that time, though I doubt I will convince anyone  Fun conversation though!

1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

The other problem is that ‘weakness’ is entirely a relative term; it has no kind of objective referent in reality. Nor does ‘might’ for that matter. 

This I actually don't have an issue with. All of the Shards are relative terms, Honor, Autonomy, Odium etc. all have multiple possible meanings when viewed by us, it all depends how Ado and the Vessels interpret it.

[Ripheus23]

2 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

The other problem is that ‘weakness’ is entirely a relative term; it has no kind of objective referent in reality. Nor does ‘might’ for that matter. 

I've definitely not had enough coffee today because this is a super-weird sentence to me right now 

[Toaster Retribution]

4 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

The other problem is that ‘weakness’ is entirely a relative term; it has no kind of objective referent in reality. Nor does ‘might’ for that matter. 

I feel like I am probably starting an argument that I will lose, but Honor is pretty relative as well, I think. 

[Steel Inquisitive]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I feel like I am probably starting an argument that I will lose, but Honor is pretty relative as well, I think. 

I agree....

@Jace21I thing you and I are in agreement for the most part. I understand your first point now I believe that with the shattering the shards became... More free? I don't think that's right.... Ruin when part of the whole wouldn't have been wanting to kill the world. Ruin would have been fine slowly breaking things down, but once it was separate it wanted only to destroy... So actually, yeah! The shattering freed the shards.