Shallan and slaves - analysis of a single scene

[Aleksiel]

 

Usually someone of higher breeding would simply be executed instead. Slavery was a mercy for the lower classes.

 

Thinking of slavery as 'mercy' can explain why the slave debt is almost impossible to pay - in a way a slave already had the mercy of being allowed to life, so asking for freedom when others in his/her place would be executed, is like a plea to end your lifelong sentence. The executed doesn't get a second chance, so in Vorin logic why should someone from a lower class get a privilege denied to higher borns?

[happyman he/him]

...What exactly is paternalistic about Shallan helping the slaves? I mean, would it have somehow been better if she were a darkeyes and helped them?

 

It wasn't the action itself.  It was the emotional distance she felt from them while she sized them up.  I doubt Kaladin would have been so clinical when he saw how they looked and acted.

 

In other words, the action itself was fine.  It was the right action.  No argument there; that's kind of my last point in my original post.  It was more the nuance of the scene that bugged me.

[Aleksiel]

It wasn't the action itself.  It was the emotional distance she felt from them while she sized them up.  I doubt Kaladin would have been so clinical when he saw how they looked and acted.

 

In other words, the action itself was fine.  It was the right action.  No argument there; that's kind of my last point in my original post.  It was more the nuance of the scene that bugged me.

 

Of course Kal would have felt differently, he used to in that very wagon just like them. However, Shallan was also thinking how she could have ended up there as well.

 

Shallan has developed a coping mechanism to distance herself from many events and calls it 'coldness of clarity' like when she told Tvlakv to fight instead of run. It might have been the case, I don't remember the exact scene. It's her way of dealing when emotions try to overwhelm her.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

There is a slight difference between Dalinar and Shallan. Dalinar is a Highprince and uncle to the king, he can do things that Shallan wouldn't dare do. I still maintain that Shallan is doing the right thing by forcing them to free themselves, it allows them to take control of their own fate.

[king of nowhere]

It wasn't the action itself.  It was the emotional distance she felt from them while she sized them up.  I doubt Kaladin would have been so clinical when he saw how they looked and acted.

 

In other words, the action itself was fine.  It was the right action.  No argument there; that's kind of my last point in my original post.  It was more the nuance of the scene that bugged me.

 

Being cold-minded is not necessarily a sign of lacking empaty. It can simply mean that one rarely let emotions interfere with his judgment.

I myself have often been accused of "not caring" because when confronted with a problem I deduced I had no way to solve it and had already taken all reasonable measures to cushion its eventual impact, when the expected "proper" behaviour would have been to swear and worry a lot and get into some pointless argument. Specifically, this happens every time my father worries that I may lose my job as a result of the economic crysis, to which I simply reply that it's beyond my power to control, but that I have good qualifications to get a job and enough money saved to carry me through several years of unemployment

So, don't confuse "being cool-minded and detached" with "not caring or being dismissive".

 

As for the slave debts, while frauds are certainly happening, I figure the systemm works and you're actually freed if you manage to pay it. kaladin states that with the wages they get, slaves get between 10 and 50 years to pay the debt (rosharan years, which are longer than earth ones). furthermore, even if you manage it, you're a darkeye of 10th nahn, you will be without a job, you won't own anything except your clothes and suddenly you won't have an owner giving you food and shelter, and you won't have the rigth to travel or do much. If you find a job and manage to rent a room, you're in the same condition as you were as a slave. You'll probably be too old to join the army, and if you did, you'd be more likely to be killed than to be promoted.

Basically, you're better off as a slave. I figure most slaves wouldn't even try to pay their debt.

[kari-no-sugata]

So, all that long post to say that shallan has a good heart? I didn't think that needed proof.

 

It was definitely a long post (took long time to write) but I hope you're being a bit sarcastic here

 

I had a couple of motivations for writing it. At a basic level I'm just interested in how other people see the scene and learning something new. I would also like to encourage others to write "deep dive" analysis on scenes they find interesting. And to some degree I've just had this analysis in my mind for a while and wanted to write it down and release it.

 

I didn't make too big a deal about it but I suspect that this is foreshadowing too: we don't see Shallan's slaves much in the rest of the book and though we get a few thoughts from Shallan we don't get much info/perspective from her on slaves, so there's not an obvious strong need for this scene. I'm not saying it's unnecessary but I think the payoff will be in the next book: Dalinar needs to unify people and the current Vorin culture needs serious reform. If we see Shallan suggest abolishing slavery then we should not be too surprised and can point to this scene.

[Aleksiel]

I liked the scene very much. I think it showed much of Shallan's personality - her coping mechanism, her sense of justice and her caring. I suspect Lightweaver can have squires like Windrunners, so her bonds with both the slaves and the soldiers are important enough so that there are good reasons to follow the beginning of those bonds and how they progress to squireship (yes, it's a word now  ).

 

It's always interesting to discuss scenes with others, at least for me. There are so many layers in WoR, so a good and thoughtful discussion enriches the experience, opens your eyes for things you've missed, helps make certain connections that would have otherwise been overlooked. 

[BrindIf]

That actually makes me curious. My understanding of the slave debt is that it's actually a bunch of financial rubbish made up in order to keep people permanently slaves while having hope of one day not being slaves. The documentation is all with the owner without any third party involved. At the same time the slaves don't even seem to know the exact amount of their debt and there's no recipes given so their legal standing of actually paying the debt would be impossible to prove(Lighteyes word vs Darkeyes). 

 

I wonder if Shallan realizes this.

 

That's Kaladin's assumptions.

About Dalinar, I suppose that as a Brightlord, he's used to make such declarations, and then have scripts doing the paperwork and thoughts to make it realistic. He certainly has the money to backup the freedom of those slaves.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Yeah, as an embittered depressed cynical downtrodden former slave, Kaladin's view of the whole matter may be a little biased. On a bridge man's wage, it's next to impossible, but on the wage Shallan's giving them, it would probably only take five or six years at most.

[Aleksiel]

Even less according to Shallan's calculations:

 

 

Pittance though it was, it would see most of them freed in under two years.

 

So, six firemarks is a very generous payment for slaves, but pittance for non-slave servants. I wasn't able to find much on coppermind on firemarks, can someone tell me how many diamond chips is one firemark? Is firemark the same as rubymark? I'm honestly confused.

[skaa he/him]

So, six firemarks is a very generous payment for slaves, but pittance for non-slave servants. I wasn't able to find much on coppermind on firemarks, can someone tell me how many diamond chips is one firemark? Is firemark the same as rubymark? I'm honestly confused.

 

Just for the benefit of others (since you might have seen it already), here's the Coppermind article on Rosharian currency. I think we can safely assume that firemarks are ruby marks since ruby is the gemstone for the Spark Essence. According to the article, that's 50 diamond chips to a firemark.

 

Shallan's slaves are paid an equivalent of 300 diamond chips a week (or 50 diamond chips plus 250 more reserved for paying their slave debt), whereas bridgemen are only paid an equivalent of 50 diamond chips in a week (2 clearmarks a day, with five diamond chips to a clearmark and five days in a week).

[Aleksiel]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if rubymark=firemark. It was my best guess, but I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere, even in the coppermind article.

 

Kaladin describes firemarks as glowing with red light, so it's either ruby or garnet.  May be actually garnet since ruby mark doesn't sound as pittance, but relatively average since it's in the middle of the table? 

Edited May 14, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Sphinx]

Keep in mind that Shallan's views of "pittance" are influenced by her rank and family wealth. It's quite likely that that is a pittance for a servant of the Davar family, even if it would be quite respectable wages otherwise.

[skaa he/him]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if rubymark=firemark. It was my best guess, but I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere, even in the coppermind article.

 

Kaladin describes firemarks as glowing with red light, so it's either ruby or garnet.  May be actually garnet since ruby mark doesn't sound as pittance, but relatively average since it's in the middle of the table? 

 

In Way of Kings, we learn (also from Kaladin) that garnet marks are called bloodmarks. I guess (as Sphinx said) lighteyes like Shallan have a different view of what kind of wage can be considered a "pittance".

[Aleksiel]

Hmm, where does it say a bloodmark is a garnet one? All I found is the following:

 

 

“How much for the mucus, then?” He’d been worried about this; his father had never mentioned

how much his supplies cost.

“Two bloodmarks for the bottle.”

“That’s what you consider cheap?”

“Lister’s oil costs two sapphire marks.”

“And knobweed sap?” Kaladin said. “I saw some of reeds of it growing just outside of camp! It

can’t be that rare.”

“And do you know how much sap comes from a single plant?” the apothecary asked, pointing.

Kaladin hesitated. It wasn’t true sap, but a milky substance that you could squeeze from the

stalks. Or so his father had said. “No,” Kaladin admitted.

“A single drop,” the man said. “If you’re lucky. It’s cheaper than lister’s oil, sure, but more

expensive than the mucus. Even if the mucus does stink like the Nightwatcher’s own backside.”

“I don’t have that much,” Kaladin said. It was five diamond marks to a garnet.

 

I'm not sure which price they're talking at the end. I understand it as the sap oil being five diamond marks to a garnet and the sap oil was said to be cheaper than the oil, which is two bloodmarks. Two garnet marks make a ruby mark according to the table, so why not say it like that? Therefor, I think a bloodmark is the ruby mark. 

[Moogle]

Hmm, where does it say a bloodmark is a garnet one? All I found is the following:

 

Garnet is associated with the Essence of Blood in the Ars Arcanum.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Garnet is associated with the Essence of Blood in the Ars Arcanum.

 

That's a good point. So bloodmark=garnet one and firemark=ruby.  I might have to write it down somewhere, I'm still struggling to make sense of the sphere values, salaries and goods prices.

[Pathfinder]

That's a good point. So bloodmark=garnet one and firemark=ruby.  I might have to write it down somewhere, I'm still struggling to make sense of the sphere values, salaries and goods prices.

Preparing to haggle in the slave market on Roshar are we? lol 

Edited May 14, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Aleksiel]

Preparing to haggle in the slave market on Roshar are we? lol 

 

Bah! I'll save the life of a slaver and he'll give his slaves in payment. Dues in recompense for my soldiers protecting him and his worthless life.

[Sphinx]

Hmm, where does it say a bloodmark is a garnet one? All I found is the following:

 

 

I'm not sure which price they're talking at the end. I understand it as the sap oil being five diamond marks to a garnet and the sap oil was said to be cheaper than the oil, which is two bloodmarks. Two garnet marks make a ruby mark according to the table, so why not say it like that? Therefor, I think a bloodmark is the ruby mark. 

 

While that is a valid question, garnet is the gemstone associated with the essence of blood, while ruby is, as mentioned, associated with fire, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be switched. Also, the apothecary says "two sapphire marks" instead of "one emerald mark" so I don't think this disproves bloodmarks being garnets.

 

Do we know for certain that those are the relative values of the gemstones?

 

Edit: Oh hey, there's a whole other page here with people already making this point. Oops.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Sphinx

[skaa he/him]

 

Garnet is associated with the Essence of Blood in

the Ars Arcanum.

That's a good point. So bloodmark=garnet one and firemark=ruby.

I wonder why you didn't accept my Essence-based explanation for firemark=ruby.

Anyway, just to answer your other post, in that scene the apothecary never mentioned the exact price of knobweed sap. Kaladin also had the following thought:

 

Ten days’ pay to buy one small jar of antiseptic. Stormfather!

Kaladin is given only half what bridgemen earn because he's a slave. So that's a clearmark a day. Given there's five diamond chips in a clearmark, that's fifty diamond chips for the antiseptic. Fifty diamond chips is also exactly two garnet marks. Incidentally, the two prices actually mentioned were two bloodmarks (for the mucus) and two sapphire marks (for the oil). The antiseptic Kaladin mentioned must refer to the mucus (the cheapest choice), so a bloodmark must be the same as a garnet mark.

Sorry for making a big deal out of this. Carry on.

Edited May 15, 2014 by skaa

[Aleksiel]

I wonder why you didn't accept my Essence-based explanation for firemark=ruby.

Anyway, just to answer your other post, in that scene the apothecary never mentioned the exact price of knobweed sap. Kaladin also had the following thought:

Kaladin is given only half what bridgemen earn because he's a slave. So that's a clearmark a day. Given there's five diamond chips in a clearmark, that's fifty diamond chips for the antiseptic. Fifty diamond chips is also exactly two garnet marks. Incidentally, the two prices actually mentioned were two bloodmarks (for the mucus) and two sapphire marks (for the oil). The antiseptic Kaladin mentioned must refer to the mucus (the cheapest choice), so a bloodmark must be the same as a garnet mark.

Sorry for making a big deal about this. Carry on.

 

On it's own, I wouldn't find either convincing, but both settled it. I should have said it adds up nicely with your previous post about the firemark and ruby's essense and thus I no longer see a reason to argue otherwise. Sorry if I offended you! 

 

Also, thanks for taking your time to explain the conversation, I was really lost there.