Odium's intent

[Eternal]

Do you guys have a idea of what is odium's end goal.As he is not Ruin who just wants to destroy, he is personification of hatred so me must have a goal.

I know he wants to free himself but what then. I don't think that is all he wants on Roshar also he seems to Harbor some kind of grudge against Human as they left him and sided with Honor 

What do you guys think?..

[Toaster Retribution]

He wants to wipe out all the other Shards to become the most powerful in the Cosmere. We have that confirmed. He even has a hit list.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[Scion of the Mists]

Odium just wants to be top dog.  He's doing that by eliminating the other Shards (by splintering them).  He doesn't want to absorb their power because that would fundamentally change him.  He is specifically targeting Shards he sees as having broken their pact and Shards that could be a threat to him.  For example, Ambition was number one on his hit list due to the Shard's Intent (makes sense that he'd think Ambition would be his #1 rival).  However, he couldn't find him at first, so he went after Dominion/Devotion who settled on the same planet (and thus breaking the pact, in his mind).  

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Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

source

[Eternal]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Odium just wants to be top dog.  He's doing that by eliminating the other Shards (by splintering them).  He doesn't want to absorb their power because that would fundamentally change him.  He is specifically targeting Shards he sees as having broken their pact and Shards that could be a threat to him.  For example, Ambition was number one on his hit list due to the Shard's Intent (makes sense that he'd think Ambition would be his #1 rival).  However, he couldn't find him at first, so he went after Dominion/Devotion who settled on the same planet (and thus breaking the pact, in his mind).  

If all he wanted was to wipe out other shards then come he got tangled at Roshar getting himself imprisoned. He also seems invested on Roshar considering voidspren, voidlight and voidbinding thereby decreasing his own investiture making it more likely that he loses a battle against a full powered shard or a shard like Harmony.

Also how come he never visited Scadrial considering internal struggle of Preservation and Ruin and there already decreased Investiture than a full Shard as they are invested more heavily on Scadrial than any other shard on other planets.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Eternal

[Fanghur Rahl]

47 minutes ago, Eternal said:

If all he wanted was to wipe out other shards then come he got tangled at Roshar getting himself imprisoned. He also seems invested on Roshar considering voidspren, voidlight and voidbinding thereby decreasing his own investiture making it more likely that he loses a battle against a full powered shard or a shard like Harmony.

Also how come he never visited Scadrial considering internal struggle of Preservation and Ruin and there already decreased Investiture than a full Shard as they are invested more heavily on Scadrial than any other shard on other planets.

Maybe he was afraid of Ruin? I sure as hell wouldn’t want to make him an enemy under anything but my own terms. Honestly, if it came down to a fight to the death between a fully-powered Ruin and Odium, I don’t see how Ruin could lose. Destroying things is a key aspect of his intent. 

[Eternal]

5 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Maybe he was afraid of Ruin? I sure as hell wouldn’t want to make him an enemy under anything but my own terms. Honestly, if it came down to a fight to the death between a fully-powered Ruin and Odium, I don’t see how Ruin could lose. Destroying things is a key aspect of his intent. 

He may have been afraid of Ruin but why didn't he tried to kill preservation as preservation's intents would have stopped her even from killing Odium and honestly I cannot imagine Ruin coming to preservation's help.

Also if he was afraid of Ruin then he should be terrified of Harmony now, How can he think to splinter Harmony.

So his plans are already doomed.

[Fanghur Rahl]

 

3 minutes ago, Eternal said:

He may have been afraid of Ruin but why didn't he tried to kill preservation as preservation's intents would have stopped her even from killing Odium and honestly I cannot imagine Ruin coming to preservation's help.

Also if he was afraid of Ruin then he should be terrified of Harmony now, How can he think to splinter Harmony.

So his plans are already doomed.

Maybe. Though the problem with Harmony is that he finds it difficult to do anything because of the conflicting natures of the Shards making him up. I really hope he gets over this problem eventually though.

[Eternal]

2 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

 

Maybe. Though the problem with Harmony is that he finds it difficult to do anything because of the conflicting natures of the Shards making him up. I really hope he gets over this problem eventually though.

He will.As time will pass the shards preservation and ruin will give intermingle more to form harmony that they will lose there intents as preservation and Ruin independently.

[Calderis]

Odium seemingly targeted dual shards primarily, precisely because he was afraid of something like Harmony happening. 

I'm sure he would have gone after Ruin and Preservation next, except he got trapped by Honor and Cultivation. Keyword is trapped. He intended to splinter them and leave, not spend millennia investing there. 

[Eternal]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Odium seemingly targeted dual shards primarily, precisely because he was afraid of something like Harmony happening. 

I'm sure he would have gone after Ruin and Preservation next, except he got trapped by Honor and Cultivation. Keyword is trapped. He intended to splinter them and leave, not spend millennia investing there. 

Yes, but it is expressly stated in oath bringer that voidbringers i.e. human bought the void seems to me he was settled on whichever planets human were before they got to Roshar and he come to Roshar with them why didn't he just splintered Honor and cultivation rather than settling in with humans and propelling them to destroy there homeland either by dawnshard or surgebinding then move on to Roshar to take on Honor and cultivation.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Eternal said:

Yes, but it is expressly stated in oath bringer that voidbringers i.e. human bought the void seems to me he was settled on whichever planets human were before they got to Roshar and he come to Roshar with them why didn't he just splintered Honor and cultivation rather than settling in with humans and propelling them to destroy there homeland either by dawnshard or surgebinding then move on to Roshar to take on Honor and cultivation.

I highly doubt his plan was to remain. He's always avoided investing. I think assuming that he "settled" intentionally is wrong. 

He showed up, and whatever he was doing was intended to work towards splintering them, and then he was trapped. He has invested in braize as a side effect of this, because merely staying in one place long enough will cause it. It was unavoidable due to his inability to leave. 

He's shown his MO. If he had had the ability to just Splinter them and move on, he would have. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Calderis

[Eternal]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I highly doubt his plan was to remain. He's always avoided investing. I think assuming that he "settled" intentionally is wrong. 

He showed up, and whatever he was doing was intended to work towards splintering them, and then he was trapped. He has invested in braize as a side effect of this, because merely staying in one place long enough will cause it. It was unavoidable do to his inability to leave. 

He's shown his MO. If he had had the ability to just Splinter them and move on, he would have. 

Well, that sounds right.

Also he may have been afraid that Honor and Cultivation will come to each other's help and a fight against two shards would surely have ended with him being Splintered. So maybe he tried an indirect way through Humans.

But it still bugs he that he splintered Honor but Cultivation remained.

I think Cultivation surely had some role in Honor's splintering.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Eternal said:

But it still bugs he that he splintered Honor but Cultivation remained.

I think Cultivation surely had some role in Honor's splintering.

I really really don't. 

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Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

source

We don't know what happened, or how it happened. 

Odium has faced multiple shards before and won. He did it on Sel. However he has been bound, Cultivation has obviously managed to avoid being wounded, unlike Honor. That in no way means that she isn't working against him, or that he doesn't want to harm her. He's said he has outright, and we have sources showing us that she is actively working against him. We see it in her actions in book, and we also have WoBs such as this. 

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Wolfbeckett

Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course.

Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.)

So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used.

source

It's a complicated situation that we have limited information for.

[Solant]

I feel like Cultivation is staying safe and hidden, playing the long game and cultivating tools to use against him in the long run.

[Quantus]

26 minutes ago, Solant said:

I feel like Cultivation is staying safe and hidden, playing the long game and cultivating tools to use against him in the long run.

Agreed, though apparently at risk, since she implied she was potentially helping make Dalinar more suitable for Odium with her "pruning"

[+Invocation]

2 hours ago, Eternal said:

Also if he was afraid of Ruin then he should be terrified of Harmony now, How can he think to splinter Harmony.

Oh boy, do I have a gift for you, my friend. Someone else made that connection:

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Questioner

Is Harmony stronger than Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.

source

 

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Oh boy, do I have a gift for you, my friend. Someone else made that connection:

But power is not everything. Skill matters too. Add in Harmony's near paralysis, and odium may be wary but "terrified" I really doubt. 

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Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

source

 

[+Invocation]

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But power is not everything. Skill matters too. Add in Harmony's near paralysis, and odium may be wary but "terrified" I really doubt. 

 

Yeah, that's in the WOB I gave too. 

46 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.

I just wanted to connect a WOB to this statement from Eternal:

3 hours ago, Eternal said:

Also if he was afraid of Ruin then he should be terrified of Harmony now

 

[Rakei]

3 hours ago, Eternal said:

Yes, but it is expressly stated in oath bringer that voidbringers i.e. human bought the void seems to me he was settled on whichever planets human were before they got to Roshar and he come to Roshar with them why didn't he just splintered Honor and cultivation rather than settling in with humans and propelling them to destroy there homeland either by dawnshard or surgebinding then move on to Roshar to take on Honor and cultivation.

I've always found this highly suspect.

We are told that humans brought the void with them to Roshar by the Dawnsingers, who wouldn't exactly be unbiased. They say that humans brought odium and he was their god. While Syl agrees with this. There just seems like something is missing, Like why would he invest anything in a place with no shard at all to defeat?

I'm wondering if the humans from Ashyn weren't Cultivations people, they talk about the Old Magic which would make sense from that kind of view, as that's the system she's implicated in. It seems weird that Honor and Cultivation would take in the people of their enemy and give them shelter especially when they destroyed their own home with the same kind of magic but twisted to the magic granted by spren bond.

Still think the Dawnshards are voidbound fabrials. There is some good reason why the Aimians don't want anyone coming to Aimia where we're told the Soulcasters came from.

[Calderis]

@Rakei you're right. The singer statement is biased, and Odium's relation to those people is unclear.

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Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

source

 

[Rakei]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Rakei you're right. The singer statement is biased, and Odium's relation to those people is unclear.

 

Ah confirmation is good.

I suppose the humans could have been from before the shattering of Adonalsium too.

Two shards settling in the same system but not on same planets seems like it could be one of those situations where the letter of the law was kept but the spirit was disregarded, which is in line with Honors make up. Thus Odium couldn't really shield himself from disregard from other shards if he'd gone in directly after one of the other. After the fall of Ashyn he'd be able to say, well look they broke our agreement, now two shards are in the same place. Then he got himself played a bit.

I do so hope more history is revealed so we can get a better understanding of how this whole situation came about.

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, Rakei said:

I do so hope more history is revealed so we can get a better understanding of how this whole situation came about.

I think it's far more important that we learn what it is that they swore specifically, because Honor and Cultivation were lovers who came to Roshar together. 

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Lance Alvein

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. They came together.

source

But Honor did not think that broke the agreement. 

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Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

source

 

[Rakei]

That's fascinating. Sadly it'll likely be ages before we get that information.

However in the letter sent to Hoid by Endowment he does say

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It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish--violating our pact from the very beginning. Your skills are admirable, but you are merely a man. You had your chance to be more, and refused it. No good can come of two Shards settling in one location. It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement.

If the agreement is just no interference with another, that's a very subjective thing. Interference implies hindrance and obtrusion. Honor could have seen his and Cultivations settling together not as interference at all, but a mutually beneficial partnership and therefore not something that broke the agreement.

I'm not certain we know enough about the past with Aona and Skai and if they were helping on interfering with the other. Arguably Ruin and Preservation did the same as Cultivation and Honor until their shardic intents started driving them apart and to a confrontation to the death, they literally started interfering with the other.

If anything Odium is the biggest oathbreaker because his entire purpose seems to involve interfering with the others and splintering them.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Rakei

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Rakei said:

If anything Odium is the biggest oathbreaker because his entire purpose seems to involve interfering with the others and splintering them.

Exactly why I want to know what they swore. if Edgli says in her letter it was a non-interference pact, and yet Rayse is able to do everything he has done... That's got to be some very loose wording and some mental gymnastics on his part.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl]

Either that or the Stormfather was simply incorrect about the inability to lie being a trait all Shards share as opposed to just one of Honor.