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Knights Radiant and surges pre-Roshar


Helwar

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I'm not sure if I need to mark this as spoiler or not, Oathbringer has almost a year already but just in case I wrote a non-assuming topic title.

 

I have been talking about Sanderson with a coworker, trying to hook him as I think he will like all his works as I do. All that talking resparked my interest and I've rereading the books, I went through Elantris, The Emperor's Soul and Warbraker in three days.... Now that I am "back" into it (not that I have ever been away), I was sitting at office with no much to do and wandering through memory lane when I got a doubt that I had never considered.

 

We know thanks to the Stormfather saying literall so in the book that the Recreance happened when the Knights Radiant learned humans where the original Voidbringers, and that their powers had broken their old world, and would break Roshar too.

But it doesn't make any sense.

There was no surgebinding, and no Knights Radiant before the Heralds took their Oath, and that would have been way after the humans arriving at Roshar, when their papers as victims / voidbringers was already swapped with the parsh. Honor created the Heralds and the Honorblades then. The knights radiant appeared later, when some spren decided to imitate what Honor had done.

 

So, what broke the human's original world if not surgebinding? Where they voidbringing (whatever that is?)?

And If they weren't surgebinding in their original world, and it wasn't surgebinding what destroyed it, the Knights Radiant being surgebinders didn't pose any danger to Roshar, it was another thing that destroyed the original human world...

 

I guess this have been discussed but I haven't found any threads debating this specific issue...

Do any of you have any insight? Or maybe a relevant WoB? Thanks!

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On Roshar we have seen access to surges through the nahel bond and through specialized fabrials.  I include honorblades in the fabrial category.  Presumably on Ashyn there either was a unknown type of fabrial or  a 3rd way to access the surges/fundamental forces.

Edited by notsawerd
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The humans were originally from Ashyn, another planet in the Rosharan system (check out the Coppermind page here).  At some point in the past they used the Surges (likely expressed differently than on Roshar) to basically destroy the world, an event referred to as the Cataclysm.  They then migrated to Roshar (although some remain on Ashyn, who are the subject of the yet-to-be-written novella The Silence Divine).  

This early form of magic (Surgebinding or Voidbinding or whatever it's called) was not powered by Honor, according to this brand new Word of Brandon.  I think it's pretty clear that their power came from Odium, as he's the only other Shard in the system (besides Cultivation, who was on Roshar with Honor) and we know that you need a Shard in residence for that level of epic magic.  

Quote

Blightsong [PENDING REVIEW]

In Oathbringer it is revealed that the humans who originally came to Roshar were the first ones to be named Voidbringers and that they carried magical powers. The Stormfather also implies that modern surgebinding didn't exist before the Heralds. Were the original powers that the humans possessed Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, we're getting into lots of interesting definitional problems here. And lots of ways that different entities perceive the definitions of different terms. I will answer this question specifically as we do the flashbacks from Ash and Taln's viewpoints. So you've got a long ways to wait. But understand that definitions are not always... the way that people define things cannot always be trusted. That said, humans were not using powers from Honor originally.

source

 

P.s. You do not need to put [OB] in the title anymore, but it's always good to keep the titles spoiler-free.  

Edited by Scion of the Mists
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They didn't use surgebinding, it was some other magic.

Quote

Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

source

Ashyn had its own magic system previously, which gave people powers based on diseases they held. It may have been related to that, or it might have been something else altogether. I doubt it was voidbinding though.

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So they were using a similar magic system... I can't gel the disease=magic system with the medieval-esque humans in roshar though :S But I'm sure he'll manage to make it feel natural, as always.

 

I assumed humans were voidbinding in Ashyn because allegedly Odium was their patron shard there, wasn't he? It was the humans that brought Odium to Roshar and then the parsh changed teams. I mean, maybe when Odium got trapped with Honor and Cultivation that colored how his magic system worked, but it should not be that big of a change. And whatever humans did on Ashyn wasn't powered by Honor so it had to be powered by Odium , or with no shard it would have been one of the weak magic systems, incapable of something like destroying a world...

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2 minutes ago, Helwar said:

So they were using a similar magic system... I can't gel the disease=magic system with the medieval-esque humans in roshar though :S But I'm sure he'll manage to make it feel natural, as always.

 

I assumed humans were voidbinding in Ashyn because allegedly Odium was their patron shard there, wasn't he? It was the humans that brought Odium to Roshar and then the parsh changed teams. I mean, maybe when Odium got trapped with Honor and Cultivation that colored how his magic system worked, but it should not be that big of a change. And whatever humans did on Ashyn wasn't powered by Honor so it had to be powered by Odium , or with no shard it would have been one of the weak magic systems, incapable of something like destroying a world...

Not necessarily. Odium did incite what happened, and he did come roughly at the same time as them... But the idea that he was "their Shard" is not certain. 

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

source

 

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My theory is that the disease based magic is just a very very weak form of the Nahel bond. You bond with the disease, and while the bond is active, you get powers. When the bond fades, the disease fades. In the Silence Divine reading, we see someone floating, which is similar to Gravitation, and someone changing the contents of their cup, similar to Soulcasting.

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29 minutes ago, RShara said:

My theory is that the disease based magic is just a very very weak form of the Nahel bond. You bond with the disease, and while the bond is active, you get powers. When the bond fades, the disease fades. In the Silence Divine reading, we see someone floating, which is similar to Gravitation, and someone changing the contents of their cup, similar to Soulcasting.

Yeah, it's a different way of accessing and manipulating the same 10 fundamental forces. It would likely manifest differently in the specifics, there wouldn't be lashings because that's Honor's way of thinking about gravity manipulation, but a different mechanism for manipulating gravity and so on. 

   
Quote

 

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)
#29Feb. 18, 2017

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, RShara said:

My theory is that the disease based magic is just a very very weak form of the Nahel bond. You bond with the disease, and while the bond is active, you get powers. When the bond fades, the disease fades. In the Silence Divine reading, we see someone floating, which is similar to Gravitation, and someone changing the contents of their cup, similar to Soulcasting.

I was thinking the same.  Especially if the diseases in question are the less evolved, micro-organism equivalent in the spren ecosystem, it would just mean that the Nahel bond with a spren-type creature is the focus for the rosharan system the way Shapes dominate Sel and Metals for Scadrial.

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