Ideal Speculation

[Tglassy]

I know there are other threads about this, but I'm not going to raise them from their slumber.  

 

In the books, we've come close to hearing the WIndrunner's Fourth Ideal.  I've read up on what some others think, and I'm actually listening to The Stormlight Archive again, though I'm almost done with Words of Radiance and will be starting on Oathbreaker again soon, so I'm aways away from being able to contemplate this fully.  Still, from what I gather, the Fourth Ideal is extremely hard for a Windrunner to accept, due to the memory gem and the fact that Kaladin couldn't say it.  

I believe the Fourth Ideal must deal with something that makes Windrunners NOT act, because the memory gem thing says "Shouldn't we want to help people?"  This leads me to believe that it isn't anything active.  The previous ideals were "I will protect those who can't protect themselves" and "I will protect even those I hate".   That's an active statement.  It requires movement.  

I think the Fourth Ideal is about prioritizing.  I think the Fourth Ideal is "I will allow those who can to protect themselves."  That is something Kaladin would have a hard time vowing, I believe.  He wants to protect everyone.  He can't not jump in front of the bullet.  But when someone can protect themselves, you can focus on those who need it. In a way, this is the inverse of the First Ideal.  It would make the Windrunner feel like they aren't helping people.  But if you protect someone that can protect themselves, you are not protecting someone else, who perhaps can't.  

 

 

I've seen some speculation on the Truthwatcher's Ideals, and we really only have Renarin to go by.  I'm wondering if his ideal is something to the effect of "I will help those who need it."  He is always trying to help, always trying to run into battle or do anything to help those around him, and most of the time he just can't.  His inability to do so could be tied to his corrupted spren, I suppose, but the oath should be similar.  

 

Thoughts?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I think your Truthwatcher idea is more compatible with the Windrunners, at least in how its constructed. It might be something that has to do with helping (Stump and Ym were also helping, so it is defenitely a trait for them). 

As for the Windrunners, it might be something in the style of ”I can’t protect everyone.” Sounds like a sad oath perhaps, but I think that the early Windrunner oaths puts a lot of pressure on the poor guys. They need to chill a bit. 

 

[Quantus he/him]

My best guess for the winderunner forth is something along the lines of "I will Stand Aside when I must".

 

For the original Truthwatchers, Im guessing something along the lines of "I will Uncover that which is Hidden", though I expect Renarin's will be different.

[Patrick Star]

The 4th Windrunner ideal is going to be "I will forgive myself for those I cannot save to save those I can"

The 5th is going to be "I will trust others to protect those I cannot"

[Calderis he/him]

The truthwatcher divine attributes are "learned and giving." 

I think what people are taking as helping is the giving portion. 

[+Child of Hodor]

4th Windrunner Ideal “I can’t save everyone” or “I won’t protect people from their own decisions” 

 

[Aeshdan he/him]

 

I kind of suspect the 4th or 5th Windrunner Ideal will be something along the lines of "I will not protect others from the trials they need to grow strong". It would fit as kind of the capstone of what it means to be a Windrunner, the ability to not only know when people need protecting, but to know when protecting would, in the long run, only hurt.

[Patrick Star]

On 9/23/2018 at 9:16 PM, ReaderAt2046 said:

I kind of suspect the 4th or 5th Windrunner Ideal will be something along the lines of "I will not protect others from the trials they need to grow strong". It would fit as kind of the capstone of what it means to be a Windrunner, the ability to not only know when people need protecting, but to know when protecting would, in the long run, only hurt.

Gonna have to disagree with you.

Kaladin's our main Windrunner, and he's set up so that his character progression follows him swearing the oaths.  He's going to get to 5.  Same thing goes for the other main order heads (Jasnah, Taln, Ash, Dalinar, Shallan, Renarin, Lift, Venli, and Szeth).

All of their character arcs revolve around the oaths.  Swearing a new oath is explicitly equivalent them advancing as a character.

Kaladin has two major mental blocks right now.  His first is that he can't accept that he can't save everyone, so Ideal 4 is going to be him accepting that.  Not for any reason of causing harm in the long run, but just for simple practicality.  He can't save them, and he has to accept that.  His second is that even though members of Bridge 4 are getting powers as squires and some are becoming full-fledged Windrunners in their own right, he still feels the need to protect them.  So Ideal 5 is going to be him accepting that the members of Bridge 4 are capable of acting independently, and that trying to protect them prevents them from protecting others.  Hence the 5th ideal I proposed.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

On 2018-09-22 at 11:24 AM, Patrick Star said:

The 4th Windrunner ideal is going to be "I will forgive myself for those I cannot save to save those I can"

^^^ this.

[Quantus he/him]

9 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

Gonna have to disagree with you.

Kaladin's our main Windrunner, and he's set up so that his character progression follows him swearing the oaths.  He's going to get to 5.  Same thing goes for the other main order heads (Jasnah, Taln, Ash, Dalinar, Shallan, Renarin, Lift, Venli, and Szeth).

All of their character arcs revolve around the oaths.  Swearing a new oath is explicitly equivalent them advancing as a character.

Kaladin has two major mental blocks right now.  His first is that he can't accept that he can't save everyone, so Ideal 4 is going to be him accepting that.  Not for any reason of causing harm in the long run, but just for simple practicality.  He can't save them, and he has to accept that.  His second is that even though members of Bridge 4 are getting powers as squires and some are becoming full-fledged Windrunners in their own right, he still feels the need to protect them.  So Ideal 5 is going to be him accepting that the members of Bridge 4 are capable of acting independently, and that trying to protect them prevents them from protecting others.  Hence the 5th ideal I proposed.

I personally think it's going to be more than that: It's not just "I cant Save Everyone", rather it will be "Sometimes Im Not supposed to even Try".  It's not about accepting eventual Failure, it's about accepting that you cant always get involved, that you sometimes have to let things happen and/or let others have their own struggles.

[+Child of Hodor]

41 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I personally think it's going to be more than that: It's not just "I cant Save Everyone", rather it will be "Sometimes Im Not supposed to even Try".  It's not about accepting eventual Failure, it's about accepting that you cant always get involved, that you sometimes have to let things happen and/or let others have their own struggles.

Good point! I felt the "don't try to save everyone" part was implicit in the first part, but someone like Kaladin probably needs it spelled out. 

It kind of reminds me of Jack Shepard, whose father was a doctor, from LOST. He's too hard on himself when he fails, his father tells him not to try to save everyone. His father is a huge jerk to him in this scene, but there is a kernel of truth to it. 

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Subvisual Haze]

Just wanted to say I love the ambiguity of your thread title.  It can be read as either "Speculate about Ideals" or "Speculate in an ideal manner", and both can be simultaneously relevant!

[Rainier]

On 9/21/2018 at 11:59 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

As for the Windrunners, it might be something in the style of ”I can’t protect everyone.” Sounds like a sad oath perhaps, but I think that the early Windrunner oaths puts a lot of pressure on the poor guys. They need to chill a bit. 

I think this is the most likely oath, as it sums up the clear intent that Brandon was hinting at in the scene where Kaladin simply can't say the words, while not overcomplicating things.

I also think that the specific words are nowhere near as important as their intent and meaning, so different people could swear different oaths that serve the same purpose. After all, what does the Stormfather say Dalinar speaks oaths? "THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED." It's up to the spren to accept the oaths in their meaning, not in their diction.

As an example, I think "I will shield the unshielded" would have worked for the second Windrunner Ideal, because it conveys the same meaning. Or a similar phrase in another language would be accepted.

What I'm saying is that the Intent of the fourth ideal is that they can't protect everyone, so however Kaladin comes to that realization and vocalizes it won't matter so much as his internal feelings and INTENT as he says the words. The intent is to accept that you can't save everyone, in every circumstance. The intent is to accept that sometimes people will die and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

8 hours ago, Quantus said:

I personally think it's going to be more than that: It's not just "I cant Save Everyone", rather it will be "Sometimes Im Not supposed to even Try".  It's not about accepting eventual Failure, it's about accepting that you cant always get involved, that you sometimes have to let things happen and/or let others have their own struggles.

You know, it just occurred to me that with the possible exception of the first, Kaladin’s father actively lived by literally every one of the canonical and highly plausible Windrunner oaths, including the one you just said. I wonder if there’s any significance to that.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[+Oltux72 he/him]

What about the Elsecallers and the Dustbringers? It would be very interesting to see what Malata has sworn, as it still allows her to cooperate with Taravangian against the rest of the Radiants.