Kaladin's relationship

[Aleksiel]

Technically, it is. It's just not particularly strong evidence in this case, because we wouldn't expect much evidence.

 

Technically or not, lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. 

 

Kaladin hasn't been in a position to show us his sexuality and romantic preferences. He's been through traumatic experiences and depression, which repressed his sexual/romantic interests until the very end of WoR. We haven't seen enough of him when he's relaxed and interested in having a romantic relationship to make any final conclusions. 

 

Let's compare Kaladin to Dalinar. I say it's pretty clear from the text Dalinar's straight. It was said Navani has been his only love interest other than his wife Shshsh. Here we have evidence of lack (as opposed to lack of evidence in Kaladin's case), so I count Dalinar's sexuality as canon straight at this point. Drehy is canon gay character because Brandon said so (another case of evidence of lack of interest in more than one gender), not because of in-universe proof. As far as I am concerned, all other characters have unknown preferences and we lack inarguable evidence of their sexuality. 

[Gabriele she/her]

Do Truthwatchers have squires? Because Brandon should write Feather into the books and make her Renarin's squire, as reward for her essays in his defense.

 

I think it's most likely that Kaladin and Adolin are straight and maybe one of them will 'end up' with Shallan. But that doesn't take away the wish to slash them. Marriage certainly didn't prevent tons of Aragorn/Faramir fanfiction.   And that's what slash fanfic is about: to pair up cute guys no matter their sexual disposition in the books. If it's understood it is just fun, there's no harm done. (When I presented some bits of my novel-in-progress Kings and Rebels in an online crit circle, I was told that Roderic and Kjartan were 'so slashable' and when I said Roderic would marry in a later book, 'I'd still slash them, they're just too cute.' Well, I don't mind, and I can see where the reader comes from. In a way, I did something right and gave them the chemistry I wanted for their strong friendship.)

 

Re. Adolin's looks Kaladin notices: I'm not sure if men notice the looks of other men, but I can imagine they do. I'm a straight woman and notice beauty in other women.

 

I do hope though, that Brandon will have the courage to include sexually and gender non-normative characters. He does such a good job with characters like Kaladin or Renarin that he should be able to pull off, for example, a transgender character better than some.

[Shaggai]

Technically or not, lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. 

 

Kaladin hasn't been in a position to show us his sexuality and romantic preferences. He's been through traumatic experiences and depression, which repressed his sexual/romantic interests until the very end of WoR. We haven't seen enough of him when he's relaxed and interested in having a romantic relationship to make any final conclusions. 

 

Let's compare Kaladin to Dalinar. I say it's pretty clear from the text Dalinar's straight. It was said Navani has been his only love interest other than his wife Shshsh. Here we have evidence of lack (as opposed to lack of evidence in Kaladin's case), so I count Dalinar's sexuality as canon straight at this point. Drehy is canon gay character because Brandon said so (another case of evidence of lack of interest in more than one gender), not because of in-universe proof. As far as I am concerned, all other characters have unknown preferences and we lack inarguable evidence of their sexuality.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. However, the strength of the evidence is proportional to the strength of the evidence you would expect. It's called the conservation of expected evidence. Even in the best of cases, you wouldn't expect much evidence as to whether or not Kaladin is bi, so it doesn't provide enough evidence against to significantly affect the probability of him being bi.

[Guest]

 

Basically what I'm saying is, you can defend your initial dislike of Renarin on the basis of a lack of paying attention or on ignorance. But I'm baffled by your attempt to continue to dislike him after seeing all of these arguments compiled in his defense. I mean, I suppose it's possible that even after all of this you still genuinely dislike him, but man you're going to throw a wrench in my hypothesis that the people who don't like Renarin are the people who haven't heard enough about him. Because it's a line of thinking that just does not compute with me.

 

Honestly, I am a strong opinionated person who tends to be quite direct with it. I am not ill intentioned and I do read all the arguments other have brought forward, but try to see me as the Titanic... Once I see the iceberg, I takes me TIME to steer away from it. I need to digest the information and revise my position and no I am not able to do this in a quickly manner. He may yet grow on me, we never know.

 

.............

 

So... when you call him a 'thing', no, he's not personally offended.  But the people he's based on?  The people for whom he might be the first time they get to see themselves as heroes?  You better believe that's offensive and hurtful to them.  And really, we live in a world where parents who attempt (or succeed in) murdering their autistic children are offered sympathy by the media.  People's lives are literally devalued by our society because of their neurotype.  They're treated as less than human - and they you single out the only autistic character in the series to refer to as an object rather than a person?  That's pretty gross.

 

((Also?  Renarin's autism might not be obvious to you, but it sure as heck is to a lot of ASD readers.))

 

Me calling him a "thing" had nothing to do with autism, it had to do with my dislike of his behavior at the end of WoR. I keep reading Renarin autism only is one part of this character and yet if I pass a negative judgement on him I insult other autistic persons? My judgement of his actions had nothing to do with his disabilities. I will not use such an expression again but people shouldn't read more into it then there really was.

[Kogiopsis she/her]

 

Me calling him a "thing" had nothing to do with autism, it had to do with my dislike of his behavior at the end of WoR. I keep reading Renarin autism only is one part of this character and yet if I pass a negative judgement on him I insult other autistic persons? My judgement of his actions had nothing to do with his disabilities. I will not use such an expression again but people shouldn't read more into it then there really was.

Dude.  Let me put this plainly.

 

I don't care if his autism wasn't the reason you dehumanized him:  you shouldn't dehumanize autistic characters/people.  I mean, don't dehumanize anyone, obviously, but especially those who are subject to that treatment in a way that literally threatens their lives. 

 

(and is it really so unbelievable that insulting a character would insult people who identify with that character and see themselves in them?)

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

I'd just like to point out that some people on this Thread are getting Angrier bit by bit. So if we could just all step back a bit and calm down before posting from now on, that would be nice.

[leinton]

Honestly, I am a strong opinionated person who tends to be quite direct with it. I am not ill intentioned and I do read all the arguments other have brought forward, but try to see me as the Titanic... Once I see the iceberg, I takes me TIME to steer away from it. I need to digest the information and revise my position and no I am not able to do this in a quickly manner. He may yet grow on me, we never know.

 

Let me stop you right there. Your intentions don't matter. When you say things, and they hurt people, it does not matter if you intended to hurt someone. What matters is that people were hurt.

[Aleksiel]

 

....

 

I think it's the wording you disagree with, not the main point. So, let's agree to disagree on the specifics, because the outcome is the same in this case. It won't be the same in others, but we're talking Kal now.

 

Since I'm off-topic, I'll take full advantage 

 

I want to point out one key similarity between Kaladin and Renarin. Neither of them was able to solve problems when they didn't understand their powers. It fits very well one of Brandon's rule of magic that the ability of a character to solve problems with magic should be proportional to the reader's understanding of the said magic. Kaladin always survived, yet until Bridge Four he couldn't save anyone. Renarin saw the future, but that didn't help to prevent the everstorm. It adds up to all other reasons Ren (re)acted as he did and I think it's perfectly understandable and consistent from both metatext and in-world perspectives.

 

Long story short, I expect more awesomeness from Renarin and I really want to know if his foresight can be used as a Rosharian equivalent of burning atium when he masters it. Oh, and I'm dying to know his second Oath! Truthwatchers are so far my favorite Order - esoteric, foresight (my favorite superpower), green (my favorite color), progression and illumination (my favorite surge combination for now). Where do I sign? Also, I'm curious if Ym's interlude foreshadowed the (future) presence of another Truthwatcher. If he was one, of course, which is speculative, but very likely.

[Shaggai]

 

 

 

I think it's the wording you disagree with, not the main point. So, let's agree to disagree on the specifics, because the outcome is the same in this case. It won't be the same in others, but we're talking Kal now.

I agree that Kal could totally be bi, yes. One of my main ships is Kaladin/Axies, for reasons stated earlier. My issue is with a common misconception that annoys me a lot.

[Guest]

Let me stop you right there. Your intentions don't matter. When you say things, and they hurt people, it does not matter if you intended to hurt someone. What matters is that people were hurt.

 

Let me get this straight: people are hurt because I dislike a character in a book that happens to be autistic? Therefore I can only conclude I cannot voice a disagreement nor a dislike toward any character showing any disabilities because I may thus hurt people having the same disabilities? Yes I thought Renarin was annoying at the end of WoR and I suspect I was not the only one to feel this way, but no Renarin is autistic therefore I cannot voice anything against him? I understand you did not like how I voiced it and honestly had I thought it would catch on like it did, I would have removed it.

 

I am sorry, but I will not go down that path. My dislike of Renarin NEVER had anything to do with his autism, it had to do with his behavior. He is just not my type of character for multiple reasons which I have stated many times over.

 

Now, replace Renarin with Adolin, would you have gone all tramping on me if I had said something similar about him? The answer is probably not, because he is neuro-typical. I hate this sort of logical short-cut, the one that implies you cannot say anything wrong nor express dislike about someone simply because they happen to have a disability or a disadvantage.

 

My rant against him never had nothing to do with his disability (which I never mentioned in any post I made about him except the one time I failed to identify him as such as probably 95% of the readers). I am baffled people are hurt because of this, but I guess this is a one way ship since most people do not seem to care how I (a real person) feel about having 3-4 posters sending near hate messages because of my dislike of one character. Your post was hurtful to me, but I suppose that doesn't matter to you.

 

Now let just drop the matter and shake hands. I will try to better filter my posts, in the future. Also, I am getting tired of this.

[Random Observations R Me]

… And completely off the current topic of conversation…

 

Personally, I'm not really sure who I’d like to see Kaladin end up with at this point. I'd kind of like to see him end of with a female Knight Radiant from one of the warrior orders. It would be awesome, and mix up the gender roles on Roshar a bit(something that needs to happen soon in my opinion)I would settle for a Kaladin x Shallan pairing if it came down to that - if only to break Brandon's constant use of the "Happily arranged marriage" trope. It worked well in Elantris, and was pretty good in Warbreaker. But, personally, I'm a bit tired of it. I get that it doesn't usually happen a lot in fiction, but it’s still a bit... repetitive after the previously mentioned books.

 

On another semi-related topic: Does anyone else get the feeling that Kaladin is going to be one of the first men who is taught how to read and write? It was in one of Kaladin’s flashbacks that his mother talked about the possibility. And, it would be another mixing of gender roles.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Ardents can read and write, but they're ouside the system. The stormwardens and Sons of Honor can also read and Write. As can most of the Worldhoppers. So unless you mean Kaladin will be the First one to Openly know how to read and Write...

 

And I don't think Kal will End up with anyone. I think he might hook up with a few people, but eventually die without a Serious Relationship.

[leinton]

Ooooh I like the idea of Kaladin never ending up with someone...

[xianpoxi]

Let me stop you right there. Your intentions don't matter. When you say things, and they hurt people, it does not matter if you intended to hurt someone. What matters is that people were hurt.

You are completely wrong there. That means anyone who is offended deserves power. That is way out of line. Plenty of people LIKE being offended way too much. In fact, the like it exactly BECAUSE they can use it as an excuse to claim power and bully others.

Truth can hurt. Do you think everyone should tiptoe around someone who is stuck in denial because it hurts them?

IT matters if someone does something wrong. Its not wrong just because someone's feelings got hurt.

There are actually plenty of REAL life experiences which dehumanize people. I don't even mean abuse from others. For example, Famine. People are so hungry and afraid of death that many will do horrible things to others in order to survive. It is dehumanizing. They become animals instead of people.

Describing Renarin as a thing is not inaccurate for the moment he was breaking down. he wasn't acting like a person. Similarly Kaladin at times becomes "The Wretch" this is also a dehumanizing description. Its accurate.

[Guest]

You are completely wrong there. That means anyone who is offended deserves power. That is way out of line. Plenty of people LIKE being offended way too much. In fact, the like it exactly BECAUSE they can use it as an excuse to claim power and bully others.

Truth can hurt. Do you think everyone should tiptoe around someone who is stuck in denial because it hurts them?

IT matters if someone does something wrong. Its not wrong just because someone's feelings got hurt.

There are actually plenty of REAL life experiences which dehumanize people. I don't even mean abuse from others. For example, Famine. People are so hungry and afraid of death that many will do horrible things to others in order to survive. It is dehumanizing. They become animals instead of people.

Describing Renarin as a thing is not inaccurate for the moment he was breaking down. he wasn't acting like a person. Similarly Kaladin at times becomes "The Wretch" this is also a dehumanizing description. Its accurate.

 

Thank you for understanding.

[Greywatch she/her]

I would prefer we leave it, but it is actually gut-wrenching to know that someone considers having a breakdown and being emotional means you're not "acting like a person" anymore. I find that horrifying. If you would prefer to be someone who would rather be right than compassionate, I think it would be best if this topic never ever came up again.

[Shaggai]

I would prefer we leave it, but it is actually gut-wrenching to know that someone considers having a breakdown and being emotional means you're not "acting like a person" anymore. I find that horrifying. If you would prefer to be someone who would rather be right than compassionate, I think it would be best if this topic never ever came up again.

 

Renarin doesn't really seem to be in control at that point, as Feather pointed out. It's quite a bit more than just a nervous breakdown.

[Greywatch she/her]

Renarin doesn't really seem to be in control at that point, as Feather pointed out. It's quite a bit more than just a nervous breakdown.

I'll have to read her post about it, but I believe my point still stands. Edited May 9, 2014 by Greywatch

[Shaggai]

I'll have to read her post about it, but I believe my point still stands.

Sure. Dehumanizing is a generally a bad thing. I agree with the meat of your point there. I was just making a minor correction.

Rust and Ruin, I must be coming across as a pedantic idiot in this thread. First the "absence of evidence" thing, now this. I apologize. I think it's my way of keeping a presence in this thread without actually having to contribute. I'll try to stick to posts that actually say something meaningful from now on.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Shaggai

[Greywatch she/her]

Sure. Dehumanizing is a generally a bad thing. I agree with the meat of your point there. I was just making a minor correction.

Rust and Ruin, I must be coming across as a pedantic idiot in this thread. First the "absence of evidence" thing, now this. I apologize. I think it's my way of keeping a presence in this thread without actually having to contribute. I'll try to stick to posts that actually say something meaningful from now on.

Oh, not at all! It was related and relevant; I really am planning on going to check out Feather's post on the matter.

[Asejet he/him]

I want to Kaladin to endup with Jashnah..(l knw its little weird)

or there will be trangle like dalinar(kaladin)-gavilar(adolin)-navani(shallan)

.Often says History repeat itself.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

No need Grey, I can clarify here: I put forth the "theory" (though I'm almost positive it's canon) that Renarin is not in control of himself when the visions take over. The things he does during these visions are not voluntary. However, I did not insinuate that this makes him any less of a person during those moments, as I'm sure you all could guess. 

 

I think it's probably best we return to stated topic now, hmm? I don't remember being the person to drag this one off topic, but I can try to drag it back. Perhaps I have simply gotten to the point where I have a "Renarin centric" aura that just sort of takes over threads while I'm not watching. That would be both cool and terrifying.

[Aether he/him]

I want to Kaladin to endup with Jashnah..(l knw its little weird)

Don't worry, you are not alone. I am also an avid Jasnah/Kaladin shipper.

On a completely unrelated note, "shipper" just sounds weird to me. It is pronounced exactly the same as "skipper" in Norwegian, which means sailor (more specifically the captain of a smaller vessel). I cannot help but read "sailor" every time I see the storming word.

[leinton]

If there are any Wicked fans on here, I really love thinking about Kadolin when listening to "What is this Feeling".

[Aether he/him]

If there are any Wicked fans on here, I really love thinking about Kadolin when listening to "What is this Feeling".

Not really a fan, but I laughed hard when I looked up this song.