Forging Shardplate

[Wrath]

What Shardplate really is and how it's created is still a big mystery even though we've learnt what Shardblades are. But it seems like Shardplate can't just be made of spren like Shardblades or Surgebinders would be able to hear their screams.

 

This theory owes a nod to cris34b's thread about the Surgebinding Chart, which got me thinking about the relationships between the different orders of the Knights Radiant. He noticed that as well as lines connecting the orders that share Surges there are also lines connecting the "opposite" orders who would seem to have nothing in common. In particular we have a line connecting Windrunners and Lightweavers, and we know just how different those orders are.

 

So my theory is this: in order to create Shardplate for someone, a Knight Radiant must co-operate with a member of the opposite order. I don't know how exactly it would work, but any two Surgebinders working together would be very powerful and possibly have some very strange co-operative abilities.

 

The reason I think this might be true is that it adds another level of checks to the power of a Surgebinder. They progress in strength as they speak ideals (or ideal-equivalents) and with each ideal they are bound to behave in certain ways in order to retain their abilities. That solidifies each order's specific mission, which should serve to make them a unified body, but it doesn't do anything to make the different orders part of a greater whole.

 

If the only way to create Shardplate is to work together with the order with which you have the least in common, then the entire organisation of the Knights Radiant are bound together. To get stronger, to do more, they have to work together.

 

On a storytelling level this would mean that Kaladin and Shallan need to continue to work together, and that Dalinar will have to help Renarin create his Shardplate. I suspect that won't be so easy for Dalinar to accept, but that might be a discussion for a different day.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Wrath

[Wyndrunner he/him]

Just an interesting tidbit:

 

In Chapter 19 of WoK, Dalinar is aided in fighting the Midnight Essence by a Windrunner and (I think?) an Edgedancer, two orders that are connected on the Surgebinding table. Although this doesn't directly support your theory, it could mean that certain orders of Radiants work together better than others.

 

Also, each set of armor that the Knights Radiants wear has the emblem of the Knights Radiant etched into it so the Plate could be a manifestation of cooperation amongst the orders.

[Wrath]

That's an excellent point. Maybe I have the right idea but it takes more than two Surgebinders to forge Plate?

[Lightflame he/him]

If this means Jasnah and Szeth working together, I'm all for it.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Since there was that nice tidbit in someones book that Stormlight grows plants, and that the KR can hold Stormlight in perfectly when they have a Shardplate of their own, I think that once they utter a certain ideal, they gain the ability to grow Shardplate, except, you know, they can take it off if they want.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Khyrindor

[11thorderknight]

Since there was that nice tidbit in someones book that Stormlight grows plants, and that the KR can hold Stormlight in perfectly when they have a Shardplate of their own, I think that once they utter a certain ideal, they gain the ability to grow Shardplate, except, you know, they can take it off if they want.

 

This. I think the Plate is the manifestation of the Radiant reaching the highest Ideal they are capable of, much like the Blade is the spren's ultimate manifestation in the physical Realm.

[Khyrindor he/him]

I meant to say "it grows from Stormlight," but it wouldn't let me edit.

[Wyndrunner he/him]

 

 

I think the Plate is the manifestation of the Radiant reaching the highest Ideal they are capable of, much like the Blade is the spren's ultimate manifestation in the physical Realm.

I like this idea. It would make sense too because the Knights Radiant is an extension of the Nahel Bond so when a Knights Radiant reaches a certain Ideal, their bond becomes physical. 

 

Also, when Dalinar sees the Knights Radiant in Shardplate he describes their armor having glyphs and patterns which are probably there to display their progression in the Ideals, so the Plate would be like a badge of honor to display someone's rank in the Knights Radiant.

[Shaggai]

Maybe it involves the fusing of a non-Nahel spren with a suit of armor? The spren would then create the unique shape of each set of Plate, similar to how Nahel spren form unique shapes of Blades. Since the Plate is mainly a suit of armor, a Physical object, it can still take damage from Physical objects. But it can regrow, because its shape is a Cognitive aspect powered by the spren. Regrowth of Plate is therefore similar to Stormlight healing.

[shadewolf]

Maybe it involves the fusing of a non-Nahel spren with a suit of armor? The spren would then create the unique shape of each set of Plate, similar to how Nahel spren form unique shapes of Blades. Since the Plate is mainly a suit of armor, a Physical object, it can still take damage from Physical objects. But it can regrow, because its shape is a Cognitive aspect powered by the spren. Regrowth of Plate is therefore similar to Stormlight healing.

 

what you describe is pretty much what fabriels are...

[Shaggai]

what you describe is pretty much what fabriels are...

Not really. With fabrials, AFAIK, the gems are used as holders for Stormlight. With Shardplate, the gems probably serve a similar function to the gems on Shardblades. They form a partial Nahel bond with the wearer, allowing for the Plate to adapt to the wielder.

[11thorderknight]

I will be SHOCKED (and disappointed to be honest) if Plate were somehow "made". It just doesn't fit with the rest of the package. The Nahel bond is something the spren create with humans, a way to emulate what Honor did with the Heralds but also a way for them to enter the physical realm. As the bond grows stronger the spren's presence grows stronger as well, until eventually they are able to manifest there physically in the ultimate form of what they tried to create - a Shardblade.

 

The Plate is different. It is not a creation of the spren, we know that much. But look at how it acts and what it does - modern-day, gem-powered Plate basically gives its wearer the properties that a Radiant gets from holding Stormlight (strength, speed, toughness, etc). Instead of allowing them to heal, it simply absorbs any damage into itself; but when it cracks or breaks, it will heal itself so long as it has enough Light available in the gems. It's like the exoskeleton of a Radiant, if you will.

 

So, my theory is that the Plate is a manifestation of a Radiant partly entering the cognitive realm; it's the physical expression of the concept of internal use of Stormlight in its highest form. I bet that a Radiant who manifests his Plate can hold Stormlight perfectly as well. 

 

I do have one bit of...evidence is too strong a word maybe. Support. In the Feverstone keep scene where the Windrunners and Stonewards abandon their Plate and Blades, Dalinar tries to stop and talk to one knight as they're walking away. But the knight acts like he doesn't see him. Maybe that's not a figure of speech - maybe by abandoning the Plate, the knights abandoned a part of their souls, and are therefore damaged, like someone that's been hemalurgically spiked but survived. So it wasn't just a betrayal of the Bond; it was, in a way, a mass suicide.

Edited April 14, 2014 by 11thorderknight

[Shaggai]

I will be SHOCKED (and disappointed to be honest) if Plate were somehow "made". It just doesn't fit with the rest of the package. The Nahel bond is something the spren create with humans, a way to emulate what Honor did with the Heralds but also a way for them to enter the physical realm. As the bond grows stronger the spren's presence grows stronger as well, until eventually they are able to manifest there physically in the ultimate form of what they tried to create - a Shardblade.

 

The Plate is different. It is not a creation of the spren, we know that much. But look at how it acts and what it does - modern-day, gem-powered Plate basically gives its wearer the properties that a Radiant gets from holding Stormlight (strength, speed, toughness, etc). Instead of allowing them to heal, it simply absorbs any damage into itself; but when it cracks or breaks, it will heal itself so long as it has enough Light available in the gems. It's like the exoskeleton of a Radiant, if you will.

 

So, my theory is that the Plate is the Radiant's ability to partly enter the cognitive realm; it's the physical expression of the concept of internal use of Stormlight in its highest form. I bet that a Radiant who manifests his Plate can hold Stormlight perfectly as well. 

 

I do have one bit of...evidence is too strong a word maybe. Support. In the Feverstone keep scene where the Windrunners and Stonewards abandon their Plate and Blades, Dalinar tries to stop and talk to one knight as they're walking away. But the knight acts like he doesn't see him. Maybe that's not a figure of speech - maybe by abandoning the Plate, the knights abandoned a part of their souls, and are therefore damaged, like someone that's been hemalurgically spiked but survived. So it wasn't just a betrayal of the Bond; it was, in a way, a mass suicide.

That scene seems more like it would support my theory. If it's an outgrowing of Stormlight, shouldn't it disappear once the Radiants kill their spren? Whereas if it's armor with spren in it, it would still exist but would lose some abilities.

[shadewolf]

WoB that says we haven't seen any knight radiant wearing shardplate.

 

Words of Radiance says there were only 16 knight radiants in the windrunner order, yet we see more than that discard their shards in Dalinar's vision. This leads me to believe that squires also get shard blades as well as plate.

[Shaggai]

WoB that says we haven't seen any knight radiant wearing shardplate.

 

Words of Radiance says there were only 16 knight radiants in the windrunner order, yet we see more than that discard their shards in Dalinar's vision. This leads me to believe that squires also get shard blades as well as plate.

Could I get quotes for those?

[Argent he/him]

Words of Radiance says nothing about the number of Windrunners, I don't know where this is coming from.

[Pechvarry]

-The new batch of Knights Radiant are not repulsed by shardplate.

-The shardplate helmet sucks Kaladin's stormlight from him.

 

This latter point is something I haven't seen discussed at all, and I feel it's important.  Together, these 2 points indicate to me that it is not just the bonded spren taking on the form of lots of armor pieces as well as a weapon.  They really do seem closer to Fabrials than shardblades.  Just a level of magnitude greater than the fabrials we've seen.  I'm guessing it's something to do with fabrials made out of willing spren as opposed to captive (so their cognitive input is valued higher, and thus their sliver nature manifests), and I'm kinda hoping they get Bondsmithed together, personally.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

@Argent

Probably from this.

"There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate."

[WeiryWriter he/him]

In Chapter 19 of WoK, Dalinar is aided in fighting the Midnight Essence by a Windrunner and (I think?) an Edgedancer, two orders that are connected on the Surgebinding table. Although this doesn't directly support your theory, it could mean that certain orders of Radiants work together better than others.

 

She is a Stoneward, her plate glows amber, just like the Stonewards in the Feverstone Keep vision.

[Shaggai]

@Argent

Probably from this.

That still doesn't limit the number, of course, and in fact implies that there were more.

-The new batch of Knights Radiant are not repulsed by shardplate.

-The shardplate helmet sucks Kaladin's stormlight from him.

 

This latter point is something I haven't seen discussed at all, and I feel it's important.  Together, these 2 points indicate to me that it is not just the bonded spren taking on the form of lots of armor pieces as well as a weapon.  They really do seem closer to Fabrials than shardblades.  Just a level of magnitude greater than the fabrials we've seen.  I'm guessing it's something to do with fabrials made out of willing spren as opposed to captive (so their cognitive input is valued higher, and thus their sliver nature manifests), and I'm kinda hoping they get Bondsmithed together, personally.

I agree. I wouldn't describe them as fabrials, but I agree with the essence of it.

Since the spren would never have been alive in the first place, they wouldn't scream. And since the spren infused in the armor wouldn't be fully bonded, they would probably drain Stormlight in order to keep the effects of Shardplate. This probably works through a similar or the same mechanism as the Honorblades, since they're both outside sources of Shardic power. I suspect that dead Shardblades would do the same if Radiants could hold them without the screams.

I also agree about Bondsmiths doing it. The name is perfect for that sort of thing. Both the smithing of the armor and the bonding of the spren.

Edit:

WoB that says we haven't seen any knight radiant wearing shardplate.

Found the WoB about Radiants wearing Shardplate.

Q: I was just curious about Shardplate. In one of the books you said it was seamless like there weren't any chinks in it anywhere.

A: There are chinks but there is no direct line to the skin. So like if you see a slit, there's another little plate behind it.

Q: Shardplate thus far has been powered by Stormlight and the spheres, but now that we've got Radiants is it powered by themselves?

A: Well so far we have not had a Radiant wearing Shardplate.

He's referring to the modern people, not the people in the visions. Edited April 14, 2014 by Shaggai

[Aether he/him]

It is also worth pointing out that that particular WoB is highly open to interpretation. We've seen Kaladin wear a piece of a Shardplate, but he might not count as a Full Radiant yet, it might not count as it is not a Plate of his own, there might be a fundamental difference between inherited Plate and Radiant Plate (as with Blades), or it might not count because he wasn't wearing a full Plate, and not properly, etc.

 

Brandon can often be shifty, but I feel like that particular quote is not good for anything else than dismissing Kaladin's stunt in the arena as not counting.

[WitSpren he/him]

From WoR, Delinar's last POV at the end.

 

Stormfather says that he will not give Delinar any shardS.      This, to me,  means that all the Shardblades and Shardplate come from a KRs Spren.   

 

Also, at the end of Kal's fight with the Assassian, it mentions that he sees Syl, while he is holding his (Syl) spear.     Moments later he sees other Windspren.     But it never says that he mistook them for her.     Also, earlier he had thought that he could easily differentiate her from other Windspren.

 

(Sorry - not exact quotes)

 

    So she can double manufest.   

 

I believe that in another level or so, he will get his "Plate"

 

Shallan may already "qualify" but has not had a need yet.

 

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

The reason that Shardplate does not "scream" is that it is mostly used to protect, where Shardblades are used only to "Kill" and not  for good reasons.    So that "part" of the Spren is screaming in pain, from having to "unwillingly" kill.

Edited April 15, 2014 by WitSpren

[Shaggai]

From WoR, Delinar's last POV at the end.

 

1. Stormfather says that he will not give Delinar any shardS.      This, to me,  means that all the Shardblades and Shardplate come from a KRs Spren.   

 

2. Also, at the end of Kal's fight with the Assassian, it mentions that he sees Syl, while he is holding his (Syl) spear.     Moments later he sees other Windspren.     But it never says that he mistook them for her.     Also, earlier he had thought that he could easily differentiate her from other Windspren.

 

(Sorry - not exact quotes)

 

    So she can double manufest.   

 

I believe that in another level or so, he will get his "Plate"

 

Shallan may already "qualify" but has not had a need yet.

 

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

3. The reason that Shardplate does not "scream" is that it is mostly used to protect, where Shardblades are used only to "Kill" and not  for good reasons.    So that "part" of the Spren is screaming in pain, from having to "unwillingly" kill.

1. I think it's more likely that Shardplate is by order. Shardplate is formed by the bonding of a lesser spren. For Windrunner Plate, a windspren would be bonded. Same with the other orders, but with the lesser versions of their spren. The Bondsmiths would not have their own Plate, because they presumably bond only godspren.

2. Possible, but then Plate would scream. Which leads into

3. The reason Blades scream is because the spren is partially through an involuntary transformation and is in incredible pain. It's similar to the Shaod during most of Elantris. Protecting and killing are most likely not related.

[Darkness he/him]

1. I think it's more likely that Shardplate is by order. Shardplate is formed by the bonding of a lesser spren. For Windrunner Plate, a windspren would be bonded. Same with the other orders, but with the lesser versions of their spren. The Bondsmiths would not have their own Plate, because they presumably bond only godspren.

2. Possible, but then Plate would scream. Which leads into

3. The reason Blades scream is because the spren is partially through an involuntary transformation and is in incredible pain. It's similar to the Shaod during most of Elantris. Protecting and killing are most likely not related.

 WoB says that the shardblades aren't in a transition state like Elantrians during the Shaod.

[Shaggai]

WoB says that the shardblades aren't in a transition state like Elantrians during the Shaod.

Really? I thought he had specifically said they were. Let me check the WoB thread.

Edit: Okay, I forgot the word "not". My original point holds true, though.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Shaggai