Did they choose their Shards?

[Kelvin]

So, I'm just going to post the text of a quick conversation I just had with my friend Matoyak because, frankly, I have far more questions about the Cosmere than answers and I think THIS question is fascinating.

 

Kelvin: Oh boy do I hope Endowment is female.

 

Matoyak: Because of the name?

 

Kelvin: And the jokes that go with it.

And the whole gender stereotypes that I know Sanderson would never do on purpose. But I think Cultivation is female. (which is what you would expect) and all the other shards are gender neutral. Preservation, Devotion, Ruin, Dominion, Honor. Those could go to anybody. It would be nice if Endowment was female to make the point that which shard you got was random.

 

(Unless maybe it wasn't and they CHOSE their shards. But if Ati was the nice guy Hoid seems to think he was, he would never choose Ruin).

 

Matoyak: Unless he didn't want someone else to be turned by it.

 

Kelvin: I have a feeling these people were just standing too close to Adonalsium when it shattered and they got hit with different shards

 

Matoyak: Or they didn't understand what the shards would do to them. Or maybe Ati thought he was strong enough to handle it?

 

Kelvin: Perhaps Ati got to pick last. Rayse would choose Odium if he could. It could be argued that Aona, Leras, Skai and Tanavast all chose shards that would suit their personalities. So, if Ati got what was left over...

 

 

 

 

[PorridgeBrick]

I do hope that they chose their Shards. It's been bothering me a little that the assignment of Shards happens to fall along gender stereotypes so far. If it was random, then it would basically bias on Brandon's part behind it. If they chose them themselves, however, then I'm fine with it, as then it's an in-world cultural bias instead of an outworld one.

[Observer]

Brandon said that Adonalsium was shattered intentionally, so I'm guessing they chose to grab them. Ati likely took Ruin because he felt that it would be better for a more generous person to hold it, and possibly to stop Rayse from getting his hands on it. Alternatively, there's nothing I know of that says it was known or even well-known for such power to develop an intent. Maybe everybody just grabbed a Shard, and centuries later started to change?

 

Makes you wonder why Hoid didn't pick one up though...

[Argent]

I always assumed they didn't know what they were picking. All the Holders would have to be pretty powerful Investers to be able to sense the Shards' Intents, and I find this unlikely.

[Tempus]

I'm with Argent. We know that...

 

a) Many of the shardholders knew each other well enough to gauge each other's personalities to an extent

The shardholders do not all have shards that match their original personalities

c) Vin had to take a specification action (absorbing the mists) in order to acquire the shard.

d) Shard or splinters left too long as just power will spontaneously develop sentience

 

So, seems likely that the shards were indeed acquired, either by people who shattered Adonalsium or who were present at approximately the time of the shattering, and took a specific action to each acquire an arbitrary shard.

[Kelvin]

I don't know, guys. I really think there's a good argument to be made for both sides. The fact that Rayse got Odium seems to imply that he chose the Shard that would suit him best. The fact that Ati got Ruin says the exact opposite. There are other possibilities. Perhaps not everyone got their shard at the exact same moment. Perhaps Ati didn't understand what he was getting into.

 

I do hope that they chose their Shards. It's been bothering me a little that the assignment of Shards happens to fall along gender stereotypes so far. If it was random, then it would basically bias on Brandon's part behind it. If they chose them themselves, however, then I'm fine with it, as then it's an in-world cultural bias instead of an outworld one.

 

I really don't think the Shards in general follow gender stereotypes. Preservation: both men and women act to preserve things. Honor: both men and women display honor..Devotion: both men and women can be devoted. The only two that have this particular problem are Cultivation - because it makes you think of gardening, which is viewed as a feminine activity - and Endowment because of the unfortunate  innuendo it brings up. It's not bad that Cultivation is female. (Is Cultivation female? Do we know?) but it would be nice if Endowment were also female.

 

Trust me, Brandon is much better with sensitivity to gender issues than certain other fantasy writers (who shall go unnamed.)

[Arin]

Where did Hoid say Ati was a nice guy? And didn't Sazed have a moment to decide if he wanted to pick the shards up, after he touched them. It seemed he could have looked to see what the power was and turned them down. Maybe it was a first come first served kinda thing and they had to pick one or not get one.

[Senor Feesh]

Where did Hoid say Ati was a nice guy? And didn't Sazed have a moment to decide if he wanted to pick the shards up, after he touched them. It seemed he could have looked to see what the power was and turned them down. Maybe it was a first come first served kinda thing and they had to pick one or not get one.

Spoilers for WoK and WoR follow.

Hoid stated in The Letter from WoK that 'Ati was a kind and generous man', and it's heavily implied that Ruin made him into something worse.

Interestingly, I feel that maybe they DID choose their Shards. On Rayse, from the Second Letter (WoR)

"He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become."

There's certainly a suggestion that he chose Odium, but also it could have been coincidental. I think it's impossible to say until we know more.

[Observer]

Don't forget the Reply letter from WoR (Kinda Spoilers below).

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtue that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

Seems to be a point in the chooser's favor.

[Argent]

Seems to be a point in the chooser's favor.

 

Not necessarily, though I agree with you. It could also mean that Rayse didn't resist his Shard's Intent (which would've postponed the inevitable change), but embraced it instead.

[Kobold King]

I do hope that they chose their Shards. It's been bothering me a little that the assignment of Shards happens to fall along gender stereotypes so far...

This might Squick some people out, but...

Maybe Cultivation was a man, and the Cognitive expectation people harbored was enough to slowly change "him" into the female Cultivation we know today? Plausible? Not particularly. Radical outside-the-box thinking? Yes.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Kobold King

[Numb]

Hoid mentions in WoR about a "woman around his age" and how she never liked him(Or they never got along can't remember). Suggests Cultivation was always a she. Unless Hoid is talking about someone else or Cultivation was a shemale

[Argent]

Hoid mentions in WoR about a "woman around his age" and how she never liked him(Or they never got along can't remember). Suggests Cultivation was always a she. Unless Hoid is talking about someone else or Cultivation was a shemale

 

@Kobold King was suggesting that Cultivation could have started off as a male, but because perception is such a big deal in the cosmere's magic, the male Shardholder could've turned into a female one, because people associate cultivation with femininity or something like that. Which we all agree is not a very plausible argument

[Kobold King]

I actually don't really associate Cultivation with femininity. I live in farming country so there are a lot of wrinkled and bearded men planting crops around me.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Hoid mentions in WoR about a "woman around his age" and how she never liked him(Or they never got along can't remember). Suggests Cultivation was always a she. Unless Hoid is talking about someone else or Cultivation was a shemale

I think the Person Hoid is referring to is Khriss, the Main Character of White sand. Brandon has said that she's More Cosmere aware than Hoid. And White Sand was the First Book in the Cosmere, (Though it's not yet published) So she would be pretty old.

 

Refrences:

Go Here, and look at  Post 9 and 10.

[Edgedancer]

Maybe it´s not that they choose their Shards but that they, or at the least some, got choosen to hold their specific Shard? Then some people, like Ryse could have a matching Shard because they knew what was going to happen, while others were given their Shard because someone, maybe Hoid or the dragon, belived that they could make the best out of the intend, like Ati.

[Observer]

The Reply quote seems to indicate that they gave/allowed Rayse Odium, possibly because they didn't want him corrupting a better intent, didn't stop him from taking what he wanted, or something similar. It just sounds like they had a hand in giving it to him, or letting him take it.

[Argent]

I think the Person Hoid is referring to is Khriss, the Main Character of White sand. Brandon has said that she's More Cosmere aware than Hoid. And White Sand was the First Book in the Cosmere, (Though it's not yet published) So she would be pretty old.

 

Refrences:

Go Here, and look at  Post 9 and 10.

 

Pretty sure we have it confirmed that Khriss is not on Roshar.

[Kelvin]

Maybe it´s not that they choose their Shards but that they, or at the least some, got choosen to hold their specific Shard? Then some people, like Ryse could have a matching Shard because they knew what was going to happen, while others were given their Shard because someone, maybe Hoid or the dragon, belived that they could make the best out of the intend, like Ati.

 

There's a dragon? I know the series is called Dragon Steel but a literal dragon?

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 387973120 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 424532272 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

[Argent]

A literal dragon, yes. Of course, every fantasy author does their own version of the genre's signature race / species, so we'll have to wait and see what Brandon's dragons actually are.

[Wherethewindgoes]

There's a dragon? I know the series is called Dragon Steel but a literal dragon?

 

Specifically, Edgedancer is (I assume) referring to the recipient of the letter in the Way of Kings epigraphs.

[masaru]

I have a feeling that...

 

"He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become."

 

...indicates that Hoid (and the dragon) had a hand in selecting who got what shard (however that process worked). It's probably a primary motivation of Hoid's quest to fix things.

 

In terms of the process of who got what shard... I can't imagine it's going to be as rudimentary as "you seem Preserve-y, you take Preservation." Will be interesting to see that play out.

[Argent]

...indicates that Hoid (and the dragon) had a hand in selecting who got what shard (however that process worked). It's probably a primary motivation of Hoid's quest to fix things.

 

 

Or they were (at least partially) responsible for the Shattering of Adonalsium. That would make the Shards their responsibility, and by extension - any changes they force on their Holders.

[Kelvin]

You know, I kind of liked the thought of a dragon-free Cosmere. It's just so unlike every other fantasy universe, I kind of liked it that way.

[Arin]

After reading masaru's and Argent's quote it made me think that God was shattered on purpose to "plant" seeds around the cosmere. Like a long term investment. The shard holders took the pieces to help their God spread to new worlds. I say this in part because even though a planet may be created by preservation and ruin there are still all of the other attributes there as well, like hate, honor, etc. Maybe Hoid is the cosmere gardener.