Wayne is a Lightweaver (with greater Cosmere implications)

[Brightlord]

This may very well be a crackpot theory, or already suggested, but that probably goes without saying.  Honestly, it's one of those thoughts I just had to express before I went to bed, so... here it goes.

I've been thinking about Resonance a lot lately because I've been looking at the MAG Era 2 books and wondering how it might manifest for different Twinborn.  Wax's Resonance is strongly suggested by Brandon to be his steel bubble, and he's confirmed that Wayne also has one.  I think Wayne's is tangentially lightweaving.  I'll explain.

On Roshar, we can see that the Investiture operates as a spectrum, with every Order sharing an ability type with an adjacent order, and each one having a Resonance unique to their Order.  Resonance has been described as acting like wavelengths colliding and, in this case, would be the two powers of the Order resonating into the third.  We've been told that Hoid had an ability similar to Lightweaving, and on Sel, we see an Investiture that mimics Soulcasting.  It stands to argue that these wavelengths, though they manifest differently, are constant at least to some degree across Shardworlds.

If you look at Wax's abilities, Steelpushing is very clearly similar to a Lashing. I'd argue Gravitation.  His other ability, to alter his weight, he uses very similar to Abrasion (though an argument could be made for Tension).   Between Gravitation and Abrasion is Division, which could easily be what his Steel Bubble does as it pushes objects away.  Arguably, if this is his Resonance, then it falls in the middle of the Spectrum between his two natural abilities.  Like on the light spectrum, if blue and yellow are his abilities, green is his Resonance.

Which brings me to Wayne.  His abilities are healing and bending time (/space), which seem to correlate to Transportation and Progression.  Between those are Transformation and Illusion, both of which could explain his inhuman skill at taking on disguises.  I believe that this talent either is his Resonance or is directly related to his Resonance.

If this is true, and the powers really do operate on a constant spectrum across the Shardworlds, what ramifications might that have on other magic systems?

Adding for clarity (from my reply below):
My apologies.  I clarified in an earlier reply that calling Wayne a Lightweaver was deliberately provocative; my actual suggestion was that his Resonance (in my suggestion, his accent imitations) are similar to the mnemonic devices gained as Resonance by Lightweavers (such as Shallan's photographic memory).  I also did not mean to suggest that the powers had a direct correlation in the way they manifest, merely that there is a connection between the, as you say, Cosmere fundamentals.  That is to say that, while Investiture manifests in various ways, it still manifests along a consistent spectrum, most obviously with Knights Radiant.  If the fundamentals are indeed related, such as Gravitation on Roshar and Steel/Iron on Scadrial, then it has wider implications for how it might manifest on other Shardworlds or in different resonances.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Brightlord

[Bigmikey357]

I like this theory even though I'm not sure it works from a practical standpoint. I have a couple of issues. One, it's 10 vs. 16. 16 metal effects, 10 surges. We would first have to make a conversion table and unless Roshar's surges have a wider bandwidth I'm not sure if it's possible to get close to a 1 to 1 correlation between the systems. Second, the surges come in groups whereas Twinborn can be of any combination. So theoretically if Wax used the same metals he should get the same resonance. So say his allomancy and Feruchemy were reversed. A-Iron and F-Steel gives completely different abilities but since the same keys are used the resonance should be the same too. They obviously would not be though. Lastly, which system is the standard? Roshar was designed by Uncle Addie himself but Scadrial has the Cosmere wide 16 for the magic number. Isn't it somewhat like comparing apples to oranges? Not trying to crap on your theory, just need some questions answered. 

[Calderis]

Eh, a steel bubble isn't anything like division. 

There's also the fact that we've seen another steel bubble from an enemy that most likely wasn't a Crasher. 

This idea also leave no room for the Rosharan resonances. There's nothing "between" the surges. 

Kaladin's, in my opinion, firs well as a Spiritual expression of both of his surges. Strength of squires. More of them and more stronger abilities. Spiritual gravitation to draw people in more quickly, and adhesion to bind them to himself. 

Shallan's... I have no clue how transformation and illumination create a mnemonic device. 

I don't know what Wayne's resonance is, but I think his weirdness is all him, not Lightweaving. 

Quote

Questioner

Does Wayne's ability to impersonate people have anything to do with his Allomantic abilities, or is it just skill?

Brandon Sanderson

He is just really good at it. Good question.

source

 

[Brightlord]

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I like this theory even though I'm not sure it works from a practical standpoint. I have a couple of issues. One, it's 10 vs. 16. 16 metal effects, 10 surges. We would first have to make a conversion table and unless Roshar's surges have a wider bandwidth I'm not sure if it's possible to get close to a 1 to 1 correlation between the systems. Second, the surges come in groups whereas Twinborn can be of any combination. So theoretically if Wax used the same metals he should get the same resonance. So say his allomancy and Feruchemy were reversed. A-Iron and F-Steel gives completely different abilities but since the same keys are used the resonance should be the same too. They obviously would not be though. Lastly, which system is the standard? Roshar was designed by Uncle Addie himself but Scadrial has the Cosmere wide 16 for the magic number. Isn't it somewhat like comparing apples to oranges? Not trying to crap on your theory, just need some questions answered. 

Well, if Resonance is part of effects, then the fact that each pairing of Surges has its own Resonance implies that there are actually 20 magic effects in Roshar -- but I'm not taking this stance. I find it more likely that the pushes/pulls belong to the wave greater wavelength. i.e., Gravitation might be blue, but Iron and Steel are light and dark blue respectively.  They're an example of how Investiture manifests differently on the different planets, but the overall concepts remain consistent.  It's possible that both Brass and Zinc, for example, are related to why Windrunners get more squires (passive affinity for empathy).  So yes, while they DO take on different forms, it's also notable that they take on different other forms that differ but are similar (metal vs stormlight, for example).  All of these magics are manifested differently, but Investiture all originates with Adonalsium.  By Law of Hard Magic, it'd make sense that they'd have something tying them together.

As for "any combination," this is true, but it would still operate on the same spectrum and have a center point.  It hasn't been confirmed, though, that all Twinborn have a Resonance.  Further, some of these Resonances also manifest differently: Lightweavers, for example, each have mneumonic abilities, but not all of them take mental photos like Shallan does.  The Resonance isn't necessarily so specific.  I was calling Wayne a Lightweaver to be provocative, but I AM suggesting his disguises are related to a mneumonic ability. If Resonances ARE centered bands between abilities, and his fits the band I suggest above, then he'd have the same "center band" as a Lightweaver.

 

 

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Eh, a steel bubble isn't anything like division. 

There's also the fact that we've seen another steel bubble from an enemy that most likely wasn't a Crasher. 

This idea also leave no room for the Rosharan resonances. There's nothing "between" the surges. 

Kaladin's, in my opinion, firs well as a Spiritual expression of both of his surges. Strength of squires. More of them and more stronger abilities. Spiritual gravitation to draw people in more quickly, and adhesion to bind them to himself. 

Shallan's... I have no clue how transformation and illumination create a mnemonic device. 

I don't know what Wayne's resonance is, but I think his weirdness is all him, not Lightweaving. 

 

Brandon specifically suggests that his ability to bend objects away from himself is related to, but not the totality of, his Resonance.  And I believe (and I could be wrong; don't have time to supply sources, so I'll have to lay my neck out) it was said that Resonances may not have anything directly to do with the powers themselves, and are just an effect.

As for "between" Surges, technically, green doesn't exist; it's a combination of blue and yellow.  If the Surges resonate to create a third effect, it stands to reason that the band of that third effect is a middle point, a secondary spectrum of sorts.

Shallan could be: illumination (the image) + transformation (knowledge of the thing). But I'm not sure specifically either.

I should note that I agree this defense is splitting hairs and will preemptively concede that your stance has the stronger backing, but I will point to my above mention that Resonances are not necessarily directly tied into the powers that create them.  In Wayne's cast, his powers are not Lightweaving powers, but his ability to imitate accents operates an awfully lot like a mneumonic device, doesn't it?  And since his powers might straddle Lightweaving on the aforementioned spectrum, it might make sense that they resonate at the same midpoint: the mneumonic device.  Which doesn't necessarily relate to his two powers, but still falls to the same spectrum.

Also, thank you both for your criticisms and insights.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Brightlord

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Brightlord said:

technically, green doesn't exist; it's a combination of blue and yellow

Umm, what?  Green definitely exists - it even has it's own Wikipedia page.  One of the three types of cones is green.  TVs/monitors use three different types of light to make images; one of those is green.  

[Agent34]

4 hours ago, Brightlord said:

It hasn't been confirmed, though, that all Twinborn have a Resonance. 

...

And I believe (and I could be wrong; don't have time to supply sources, so I'll have to lay my neck out) it was said that Resonances may not have anything directly to do with the powers themselves, and are just an effect.

Resonances are the result of two powers (potentially more than two but definitely two) interacting which means all twinborn would have to have one.

I think it's fair to assume a resonance is separate to the powers rather than a direct product. I mean it is a product of them interacting but it's not 1+1=2, so to speak (please know what I mean)

[Fatikis]

First I want to say this is interesting, and I am glad that you shared. However I don't think much of this is accurate.

Now I think it is possible that there are connections between the two Cosmere fundamentals used and the resonances produced. That being said Wayne is not lightweaving. While there could be connection in the way two Cosmere fundamentals act when together they would not be identical or produce a new power. Two powers together create an effect. They would not produce another power like lightweaving. That being said even if this is true with the differing flavors of investiture you'd never get the exact resonance.

Division while little is known does not in anyway produce steel bubbles.
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#Division

The basis of your idea may have some merit, but the conclusions you've drawn are clearly not correct.

10 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Resonances are the result of two powers (potentially more than two but definitely two) interacting which means all twinborn would have to have one.

Resonance is the result of two powers becoming one in the individual. Only twinborn who use the powers to extreme currently gain a resonances. This may change as Brandon has mentioned that he doesn't like how savantism is working currently. It may be that all twinborn will have resonance. Right now they do not.

[Calderis]

Relevant. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I was wondering, with Resonance. Is that a sort of constructive interference?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Constructed? No. Resonance is more about the way-- It's more of a natural interference.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So what I mean like, you have two waves, right? And if their troughs, you know--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, is that the formal term? For the constructed.-- Oh constructive? I thought you had said-- yeah. So yes, I would say that that is an accurate phrase. I mean obviously it's not exactly the same thing. But yeah, that's what I was looking at when I was building it, was kinda things like this with waveform patterns and whatnot. So yes. At least, it was inspired by this kind of idea.

source

Quote

yulerule [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, so Twinborn have [Resonances], but full Mistborn don't, right?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

yulerule [PENDING REVIEW]

So then, um, I assume that a nonmagical person, like someone who doesn't have magic, holding the Bands of Mourning will [not] have no perks.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I would say they would not.

yulerule [PENDING REVIEW]

Will a Twinborn that's holding the Bands of Mourning still have their original perk?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

yulerule [PENDING REVIEW]

Or, if a Ferring is holding the Bands, and they use just one ability, will they develop a perk, tied to the second ability they are using?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The longer they use it, the more likely that this is to happen.

yulerule [PENDING REVIEW]

Using Investiture a lot over a long period changes your Spiritweb. So what happens if a nonmagical uses the Bands for a while?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Same thing that would happen to someone else, um, it would have a definite effect on them.

*laughter*

It would change them, as... in similar ways. Not exactly the same, but in similar ways.

source

Quote

Yata

There is something that recently was debade by some fans and I hope you may give some clue about the "side effect of interaction between magic" as was pointed in the Twinborn and Surgebinder Cases: Are those "perks" stackable ? To say if I am a Fullborn like Rashek, wil I have all the possible Twinborn's perks or a specific "Fullborn's perk" ? And about the same topic, a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist has his own perk/perks ?

Brandon Sanderson

I've worked under the premise that if you hold too many of the powers, like a Mistborn, the result is a loss of these little quirks. The mechanics of it are interesting, but I'll leave you to theorize on that sort of thing.

source

I've always looked at Resonance as similar to resonance in tones. 

Strike any two notes and you'll hear the resonance between them. More than two, and you need a proper combination to create a chord, but in those cases the resonance is fuller and richer. The wrong combination, or too many notes, and all of the notes are there but they interfere with each other and it's just noise. 

18 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Resonance is the result of two powers becoming one in the individual. Only twinborn who use the powers to extreme currently gain a resonances. This may change as Brandon has mentioned that he doesn't like how savantism is working currently. It may be that all twinborn will have resonance. Right now they do not.

Resonance and Savantism are not the same thing. You don't need to be a savant to have them, you just need to use the powers. 

If Savantism were required neither Shallan nor Kaladin should have theirs at all. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Calderis

[Fatikis]

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
source

Quote

Argent

So he's more a savant with both of--

Brandon Sanderson

He's used them a lot, and they are changing his soul, and so the powers are morphing and changing. Just in slight, little ways. You're not gonna see a whole bunch. But you can imagine these two separate powers are kind of becoming one to him.

source

It has been previously stated that you had to use the powers enough that they started to mix inside of you. Some of the quotes imply that the powers need to be used frequently so that they begin to mix. It may not be directly tied to savantism, but the terms are often used together. It does appear that for the effect to manifest the powers must be used together frequently enough to begin merging. 

With allomancers you would need to burn metal or access metalminds. As you aren't passively encountering investiture. Radiants are often taking investiture into themselves often unaware of this happening. It is possible the abilities are fueling themselves without active usage enough to mix. This next statement isn't backed up by any fact, but it seems to me that Radiants use far more investiture than others which may mean the powers begin to merge faster.

Edit: The powers may be merged in the sprens themselves.

[Calderis]

I'm not disputing the fact that they both have to be used. 

It's just not Savantism. 

Quote

Kurkistan

Is there such a thing as a Feruchemical savant?

Brandon Sanderson

I did not write Feruchemical savants into the original outline. Whether or not I will do them- it’s highly unlikely because it’s not there and Mistborn is getting trickier and trickier in that regard. But I didn’t write them in, so… that’s a “probably not”.

source

Feruchemical Savantism most likely doesn't even exist. 

[Master Knapper]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

There's also the fact that we've seen another steel bubble from an enemy that most likely wasn't a Crasher. 

Can you please tell me where this is?  I must have missed it.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Master Knapper said:

Can you please tell me where this is?  I must have missed it.

Bands of Mourning ch. 7

Quote

The brute smiled. Doors still rattled around him—he was a Coinshot, obviously, Pushing out with a bubble like the one Wax used. It even pressed a little on the metalminds Wax wore on his upper arms, which were resistant to Allomancy.

 

[Brightlord]

11 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Umm, what?  Green definitely exists - it even has it's own Wikipedia page.  One of the three types of cones is green.  TVs/monitors use three different types of light to make images; one of those is green.  

I think you're misunderstanding, or at last deliberately avoiding the notion, but fine.  If red and yellow are the powers, then orange is the resonance, as it's the secondary color created by mixing red and yellow.  Happy?

[Brightlord]

8 hours ago, Fatikis said:

First I want to say this is interesting, and I am glad that you shared. However I don't think much of this is accurate.

Now I think it is possible that there are connections between the two Cosmere fundamentals used and the resonances produced. That being said Wayne is not lightweaving. While there could be connection in the way two Cosmere fundamentals act when together they would not be identical or produce a new power. Two powers together create an effect. They would not produce another power like lightweaving. That being said even if this is true with the differing flavors of investiture you'd never get the exact resonance.

Division while little is known does not in anyway produce steel bubbles.
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#Division

The basis of your idea may have some merit, but the conclusions you've drawn are clearly not correct.

Resonance is the result of two powers becoming one in the individual. Only twinborn who use the powers to extreme currently gain a resonances. This may change as Brandon has mentioned that he doesn't like how savantism is working currently. It may be that all twinborn will have resonance. Right now they do not.

My apologies.  I clarified in an earlier reply that calling Wayne a Lightweaver was deliberately provocative; my actual suggestion was that his Resonance (in my suggestion, his accent imitations) are similar to the mnemonic devices gained as Resonance by Lightweavers (such as Shallan's photographic memory).  I also did not mean to suggest that the powers had a direct correlation in the way they manifest, merely that there is a connection between the, as you say, Cosmere fundamentals.  That is to say that, while Investiture manifests in various ways, it still manifests along a consistent spectrum, most obviously with Knights Radiant.  If the fundamentals are indeed related, such as Gravitation on Roshar and Steel/Iron on Scadrial, then it has wider implications for how it might manifest on other Shardworlds or in different resonances.

I would argue that the "to extremes" case applies to the Knights, too.  Kaladin's Resonance with his Squires doesn't happen immediately.  He has to swear the Third Ideal first.  As Shallan was able to summon Pattern as a Shardblade as a child, she'd obviously hit that point as well before we see her.