The Capacity to Save the World

[11thorderknight]

I've argued before that T and Company are misinterpreting the Nightwatcher's boon/curse; his super-intelligence day was not the capacity to save the world. Again, you only need to look at the Interlude to see this spelled out: he himself placed limits on what he's allowed to do when he's "really smart" because of the idiotic things that he's come up with (like asking half of Kharbranth to kill themselves based on the result on an IQ test). It's pretty obvious, then, that the motives/desires/goals of his "day of brilliance" are not trustworthy, regardless of how accurate the predictions are.

 

By Brandon standards, the Interlude almost beats us over the head with this concept. At one point his aide wonders whether the IQ tests he writes for himself are accurate, since he's doing so well on an average day. T replies that the test is accurate; "you simply underestimate the capacity of the average man". I mean, really.....Brandon basically spells it out for us here.

 

Whether T's "capacity" to save the world is his compassion or something else, it's obviously NOT his "day of brilliance".

Edited April 2, 2014 by 11thorderknight

[Observer]

Obviously, salvation lies in the hearts of the everyday man. Hoid and Jasnah are totally onto something there.

[Seloun]

The specific quote is:

 

 

He was barely listening. “Capacity,” he whispered, turning a page. “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind.”

 

Assuming this is literally what Mr. T asked for, note that it's actually two potentially different things - capacity to stop what's coming, and capacity to save humankind. There's no reason that those are the same things (humankind could be saved without stopping the Desolation, and the Desolation could be stopped at the cost of exterminating all humans). I'm inclined to say which is his blessing and which is his curse is not quite as straightforward as intelligence is one and his empathy being another; instead, it depends on the perspective of the individual boons.

[RShara]

But presumably (I know, that's a bad word!) the Nightwatcher/Cultivation wouldn't want Odium to win either...

[potato]

I don't see Sanderson as a kind of guy where the ends justify the means which is exactly what Taravangian is but at the same time using him as a stepping stone to achieve something greater sounds very plausible. Sanderson also talks about how he liked the concept of TLR but couldn't really build him well enough. Taravangian seems perfect for that. That would mean Taravangian's boon is that he'll save the world, his curse is that he'll become hated/die/forsake who he is(He seemed like a nice guy before all this) to achieve it.

Mr. T's blind following of his own intelligence enables him to become Odium's champion, his compassion will allow him to fall on his sword at the penultimate moment. That is his boon.

His curse is that nobody will ever know the second bit.

[Dihatimus]

I may be off track but...

 

How I view the capacity he asked for is to not think of it as an increase of his average intelligence or compassion. Keeping in mind the breadth of his capacity was greatly widened when compared to an average man. An average man for example could be quantified as -1 to +1, where a -1 day would not be very different from a +1 day in either intelligence or compassion. Mr. T could very well be several orders of magnitude wider breadth, perhaps -100 to +100, similar to what Mr. T referenced in his interlude. 

 

That referenced graph shows the frequency in comparison to his intelligence level. However I am not considering probability, I am considering the implications of a wider breadth of intelligence. His more compassionate days tempering his more intelligent raises the effective level. As seen in the interlude on an average day, he trusted his smarter self in the interpretations of the diagram. As also seen his more compassionate self knows not to enforce the "IQ to breed" tests. In the end, the capacity to reach higher tiers of intellect would never have been possible. In this way, 100 days of below average for every 1 day of above average is positive.

 

It is interesting how he ponders why intelligence and compassion appeared to be opposites and incapable of occurring on the same days. As though there is a cord that ties the two together, with that cord cut the compassion no longer limits the intelligence and vice versa. The average man with this binding still in place unconsciously is incapable of exceeding the normal because the other pulls him back, analogous to some psychopaths being able to inflict great harm to someone without remorse because that person lacks the cord connecting empathy and action. 

 

To paraphrase, he has days of brilliance that he pays for later. I believe that the boon is clear, given the breadth of capacity of intelligence boosted he can some days reach the peaks no one else can. His curse to me is also clear, he now must sit atop those peaks alone and weep.  

 

I think it is also important to note that he at his more intelligent is not hateful, he is uncaring. On one spectrum love and hate are opposites, Those are both powerful but opposite emotions.  On another spectrum the opposite of hate is indifference, or absolute emotion vs absolute lack of emotion. If Ruin and Preservation fought and annihilated each other being opposites. Then either you require Love or Indifference to counter Hate. Perhaps the KR represent love, and Mr.T represents indifference. Either way I do not believe that Mr. T will become an agent of Odium.

[Observer]

Say...does a hyper-compassionate person need to be anything more than barely sentient to attract a spren of some kind? I guess I'm just taking over the dreaded "Space right after the awesome post" spot, but seriously, would it be possible?

[Kobold King]

Say...does a hyper-compassionate person need to be anything more than barely sentient to attract a spren of some kind? I guess I'm just taking over the dreaded "Space right after the awesome post" spot, but seriously, would it be possible?

I doubt there's an inherent intelligence threshold before spren will accept a bond. After all, dullform Listeners can bond spren, and they're not exactly the sharpest Shardblades in the armory...

 

Granted, there are a number of differences between the Nahel bonds and the Listener form bonds, but I think the same principles would apply. Intelligence is often described as a matter of perspective, after all.

[Crysanja]

i guess a compassion related Spren is not one of the Spren for KR.

so it would be much less usefull. however i would say we can be sure,

the Spren would be not related to Odium.

 

 

maybe he is not able to save the world yet.

the old magic might be time sensetive and he needs to work together with the KR.

or form a colition of rulers, to enable the KR.

[AyeJay]

Isn't the severity of the curse based on what the Nightwatcher felt the person deserved? Maybe she really didn't like him and gave him an extra helping of curse?

Maybe his boon will somehow indirectly help the heroes save the world.

Edited April 3, 2014 by AyeJay

[zandi]

For some reason I had assumed that yes- the compassionate but drooling person he becomes is the one who will save - or at least be instrumental in helping to save, along with our favorite KRs - everything.

 

That ultimately Odium himself (or maybe his champion) will need someone to have that much compassion for him. The only one who might be able to sincerely muster enough compassion for Odium/Odium's champion that it will save everyone from such hatred (including maybe even Odium himself) might be T in this state - where he feels compassion for everyone no matter how hateful.

 

*sing to "all we need is love"* 

 

yes, I know, this is probably too corny a possibility and therefore unlikely....

Edited April 3, 2014 by zandi

[Observer]

Hehehe, now I'm wondering if his Boon is the fact that he'll become an idiot just when he needs to be one, and his curse is that he'll make such a thing necessary. The world will live or die on his intelligence, but the other way around from what Vargo thinks. Yes, this is almost certainly what will happen.

[Wrath]

For some reason I had assumed that yes- the compassionate but drooling person he becomes is the one who will save - or at least be instrumental in helping to save, along with our favorite KRs - everything.

 

That ultimately Odium himself (or maybe his champion) will need someone to have that much compassion for him. The only one who might be able to sincerely muster enough compassion for Odium/Odium's champion that it will save everyone from such hatred (including maybe even Odium himself) might be T in this state - where he feels compassion for everyone no matter how hateful.

 

*sing to "all we need is love"* 

 

yes, I know, this is probably too corny a possibility and therefore unlikely....

 

The real twist is that Taravangian is both champions - Odium when smart, Honour when compassionate.

[Asperity]

I kind of wondered if the Nightwatcher gave him schizophrenia since people with certain severe mental disorders (schizophrenia/bipolar disorder) exhibit high levels of intelligence, but his 'normal' days are akin to medicated days.

[Wrath]

I kind of wondered if the Nightwatcher gave him schizophrenia since people with certain severe mental disorders (schizophrenia/bipolar disorder) exhibit high levels of intelligence, but his 'normal' days are akin to medicated days.

 

As a schizophrenic I'm going to say... no.

[Asperity]

As a schizophrenic I'm going to say... no.

Why do you say that? Nothing in your post makes my statement incorrect.

[Vasteel]

Who's to say Brandon didn't get the idea from that? You should probably supply some facts before you just say "no" to someone's theory. I like Kythis' idea and it does make sense.

[Wrath]

Forgive me for thinking that actually being a schizophrenic might make me better suited to identifying if a fictional character shares my illness or not. I guess my lack of evidence just can't stand up against the overwhelming amount of evidence you put forward.

[Asperity]

Forgive me for thinking that actually being a schizophrenic might make me better suited to identifying if a fictional character shares my illness or not. I guess my lack of evidence just can't stand up against the overwhelming amount of evidence you put forward.

 

You put forth no evidence either, aside from your own anecdotal opinion.

 

http://psychcentral.com/lib/intelligence-linked-to-bipolar-disorder/0005518 shows correlation between high school performance and risk of developing bipolar disorder amongst males.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17474-artistic-tendencies-linked-to-schizophrenia-gene.html shows a relation between schizophrenia and creativity.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0077215 shows correlation between high intelligence in someone with schizophrenic who has a family history of psychosis versus somebody with schizophrenia who does not have a family history of psychosis, which is interesting.

Another article which discusses a study that talks about creativity in schizophrenia and other psychosis: http://www.academia.edu/852012/Concepts_of_Intelligence

Persons with higher IQ scores exhibit depression which then tapers off to people with depression having the highest IQ readings. It's the theory that the more you know, you become depressed by the reality, and how awful and meaningless everything truly is.

 

Of course, the higher intelligence and psychosis correlation is not present in every member showing a disorder. These are called "outliers" and they are present in every single study.

[Vasteel]

Forgive me for thinking that actually being a schizophrenic might make me better suited to identifying if a fictional character shares my illness or not. I guess my lack of evidence just can't stand up against the overwhelming amount of evidence you put forward.

 

I totally agree with you, I'm just saying he could of based it off of the illness and it was a good suggestion by Kythis. You just basically said no, obviously having the illness you would know a hell of a lot more about it but doesn't mean its not related.

[grinachu]

I think the reason that the Nightwatcher has given Taravangian fluctuating intelligence rather than permanent super-intelligence has something to do with the nature of Investiture.

 

I think there are limits to the extent that there can be interference with free will exercised by humans once they have been created. They have to have the ability to choose differently from the heightened power granted by Investiture and granting Taravangian compassion and remorse on his not so good days, allows that balance to be maintained. 

 

There is a good parallel here with the Terris prophecies in Mistborn:

 

Mistborn Ch.2 

 

"If men read these words, let them know that power is a heavy burden. Seek not to be bound by its chains. The Terris prophecies say that I will have the power to save the world.

They hint, however, that I will have the power to destroy it as well."

Edited April 5, 2014 by grinachu

[grinachu]

One more point about the intelligence granted to Taravangian and the acts it drives him to commit.

 

it is  an inversion of the creed of the Knights Radiant:

 

Destination before Journey: in order to secure the future of humankind Taravangian is forcedd to commit many immoral outrages.  

 

Death before Life: in order to save humanity, Taravangian is forced to murder again and again and to use murder and war as a tool of statecraft. 

 

Weakness before Strength: in order to succeed as the undisputed leader of  humanity, Taravangian has to act and be perceived to be weak and non-threatening. Even the Ghostbloods who know some of what he is up to, cannot understand his modus operandi

 

"No, Im not worried about that one. The old fool sows chaos , but does not reach for the power offered by opportunity. He hides in his insignificant city, listening to its songs, thinking he plays in world events. He has no idea. His is not the position of the hunter" (WOR p.633)

[AyeJay]

Why do you say that? Nothing in your post makes my statement incorrect.

 

Schizophrenia is a mental condition, not a curse. I would hope, given the amount of care he took in handling depression and PTSD, he wouldn't use schizophrenia in such a manner. Especially given that it is the curse that drove Taravangian into being an antagonist. The implications of that would be disconcerting.