How many magic systems will there be in total?

[Ripheus23]

The minimum would be one per Shard, although there is no evident strict correlation as such (2 Shards on Scadrial, but 3 systems; myriads on Sel; etc.). However, I feel like there would be an... extrapolation... possible.

The Scadrian division multiplies the focus (metal) by the number of Realms. I think this is an important feature of Investiture, such that we would multiply the number of focal conditions by the number of Realms. However, the number of focal conditions is not the same as the number of Shards (Ruin and Preservation worked with the same focus), and different Shards interact with different focal conditions differently (e.g. Tanavast "forges" Honorblades from metal versus manifesting 'Metalbinding,' for lack of a better term ).

My guess is that there must be the Investiture equivalents of subatomic particles, and the number of different such particulates is the number of magic systems, or perhaps better yet preconditions for such systems. (IRL-physics has gluons, photons, gravitons (supposition), "vectrons" (W+/-&Z weak-force carriers), the Higgs, quarks, and leptons (and IDK if antiquarks and antileptons are further such categories or subdivisions of quarks and leptons?), but there are 8 types of gluons, 6 types of quarks, and 6 types of leptons (and 6 antiquarks and 6 antileptons!), so up to 38, if my calculations are correct.) However, I feel like all of these conditions would be further conditioned in line with the following concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unparticle_physics

Quote

In theoretical physics, unparticle physics is a speculative theory that conjectures a form of matter that cannot be explained in terms of particles using the Standard Model of particle physics, because its components are scale invariant.

I think this means that this "form of matter" is fractal, or at least quasi-fractal, essentially, that is it "looks similar" however much you "zoom in" on it. Fractal cosmology is indicated for the Cosmere even if not perfectly established (and it's not IRL-established, for that matter(!)), but so anyway I would wonder if Investiture would be the above particle types converted into an "unparticle" state.

EDIT: I also wouldn't be surprised if Sanderson worked in some "supersymmetry," here. In that event, if I'm not mistaken, the number of particles would go to over 70. I think then that a direct equivalence with the number of magic systems would be given (this might explain the # of planets involved in the Cosmere, no less).

Edited August 13, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Calderis]

There's also a Shard that is not on a planet. Considering the way magic systems develop, that would currently remove them from the magic system equations. 

Quote

Dawnshard

So I asked Brandon at the LA signing if he could tell us about a shard that we don't know anything about (including the survival shard) and he said that there was a shard that isn't on a planet. Now I think this means that the shard is either on an asteroid, or a star. It could also be floating in space or on a moon and influencing from a distance. I will repeat it is not any shard we already know about.

source

 

[Weltall]

Brandon has said that there is a quantum of Investiture but it behaves 'weirdly'. In other words, it's something that can't be broken down any further and thus doesn't result in, say, one Investiture Particle plus one Ambition Particle = one unit of 'Ambition's Investiture'. He's also described the different Shards' 'assigned' Investiture being the equivalent of a magnetic state or particle spin, rather than each Shard getting a different quantum of Investiture. So my guess is that while neat, the particle idea doesn't hold up.

On 8/13/2018 at 2:14 PM, Ripheus23 said:

The Scadrian division multiplies the focus (metal) by the number of Realms. I think this is an important feature of Investiture, such that we would multiply the number of focal conditions by the number of Realms.

Sel already throws a wrench into things because it's only got one magic system even though it's got two Shards, three Realms and a whole host of regional variations that build on the same 'programming' concept. Nalthis also has only one system of magic (and no weirdness in any Realm, like Sel has) though it's got some slightly regionalized spins on it, for reasons Brandon hasn't revealed but which aren't as dramatic as what Sel has. If your idea was correct we should see three relatively distinct magic systems minimum on any given world but we don't.

 

 

[Ripheus23]

I think here a question would be, "What is a magic system?" On the face of it, we might think of the different regional variations on Sel, as all magic systems unto themselves. What we would need is a clearer... taxonomy, I guess you might say, to tell how many there are per any world. (This might even be cognitively dependent in that different worlds have different numbers and levels of systems due to how many the Shards or locals believe it has.) After all, Sanderson says,

Quote

"the Selish magic systems"

in https://wob.coppermind.net/events/126-ad-astra-2017/#e2003.

My impression on the comparison would be: when we say "magic systems" we are initially/usually thinking "like how Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy were supposed to be three different systems." One focus by three, then. Saying Sel's magic system is "one" in this fashion would mean saying, "Sel has one focus that only manifests in one way," or alternatively, "Sel has a lot of different focuses that manifest in only one way," which don't seem to fit to me.

Secondly, though, it might be that there is a multiplication by the number of Realms with some further terms in the equation that can moderate this input. Maybe AonDor has one focus that is multiplied by the three Realms, but some local variable (number of Shards, number of Splinters, number of Realms the Shard is occupying locally, and so on and on or whatever) that it is then computed by, reduces the number of systems to 1 (or even to the number of countries/geographies involved, or whatever). But there would at least be a step involving a multiplication by 3.

[Fatikis]

You are going to run into problems trying to calculate the total number of magic systems due to minor shardworlds. There are a number of planets that have access to investiture and magic systems in which no shard resides. You are also going to run into issues with trying to figure out the number of magic system created by Adonalsium prior to shattering.

Magic systems all follow basic cosmere rules, but I don't see any reason why there would be a restriction on the number. It seems to me that as long as investiture exists "magic" could manifest in a near infinite number of ways.

[Ripheus23]

I guess my question is for this reason:

Supposing a Hoid book or whatever, where he has multiple powers of all different sorts, Sanderson is going to write a scene where Hoid has to figure out how to use as many systems at once, as he can, of those he's "acquired." It'd be like how the end-battle in A Memory of Light tethered the crystal sword's weakness with the use of "the True Power" and so on and on. It would showcase the logic of the systems to special effect. But I doubt Sanderson will describe more magic systems in detail than would be simultaneously computable by readers, so to say.

[Scion of the Mists]

@Ripheus23 Why do you think that the number of Realms is important?  There are always going to be 3 Realms on all of the planets.  There are clearly 3 systems on Scadrial.  However, while Sel's and Roshar's are ambiguous/unknown, it's pretty clear that Nalthis only has a single magic system.  

[Ripheus23]

@Scion of the Mists, IIRC the Ars Arcanum section for the Metallic Arts associated Allomancy with the Physical Realm, Feruchemy with the Cognitive Realm, and Hemalurgy with the Spiritual Realm. Since the reader's "intuitive" sense of "how many magic systems there are" is geared towards how the Metallic Arts got split up, the reader is going to feel that the number of Realms is connected to how an overarching system (per book series) gets split up, even if this is not a fast-and-hard rule. (Of course the Ars Arcanum information is to be filtered through a recognition that they are Khriss' theories.)

Now, at one extreme, we might say that there is only one magic system in the entire Cosmere whatsoever, namely the abstract mathematical system underwriting Investiture as such. However, there is some set of subsets of the pure Investiture system, of which we are presumably speaking when we compare different sets of "spells" and label them "a magic system," in this context.

That might be the way to look at it: "sets of spells," where a spell is understood as a specific use of a specific focus/Shardic relation/etc.

[Yata]

On 16/8/2018 at 11:10 PM, Ripheus23 said:

@Scion of the Mists, IIRC the Ars Arcanum section for the Metallic Arts associated Allomancy with the Physical Realm, Feruchemy with the Cognitive Realm, and Hemalurgy with the Spiritual Realm.

What ?

All those magic works with all three Realms (only Hemalurgy is actually most spiritually).

Anyway try to numerate the possible magic systems is mostly useless as the same shard will gave birth to different magics based on completely arbitrary factors like "where he is invested"

[Corax]

It's interesting that you mention taxonomy. I expect that, like real world taxons, Cosmere magic systems are likely to be a lot more blurry and imprecise than most people assume. Does the Old Magic count as a system at all? Are fabriels just a subset of surgebinding? If gem fabriels count as something seperate, what about allomantic fabriels (that I expect we'll see more of in later Mistborn eras); wouldn't those then count as a separate ststem? Do purelake fish count?

The questions are rhetorical, though. I guess my point is that the number of magic systems will be inherently blurry, because Investature permeates the Cosmere in a fairly organic fashion, often without intentional Shardic design.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Corax