Another reason for the Recreance

[ScavellTane]

The common consensus regarding the Recreance is that it happened likely due to the severing of the Singers Connection to Roshar and the denunciation from Honor regarding the Radiants worthiness.

I would go deeper and say that it happened because the Radiants removed the Singers ability to Progress without influence from Odium.

BAM connecting to the Singers and providing them with forms of power granted them wisdom that have been denied to them by the Fused and Odium. They were on their way to developing a society that is not all about war. 

Are we certain the Listeners views were in minority amongst the Singers during the Last Desolation?

Could the Radiant Khazirah have spoken out for the Singers at that time?

It would seem that the Singers were stepping away from Odium and the Radiants practically severed their legs from under them.

I think this is another underlying truth behind the Recreance.

Edited August 2, 2018 by ScavellTane

[KalaDANG he/him]

Didn’t Stormfather confirm that the reason that the Radiants broke their oaths was because they learned that the Parshmen were the original inhabitants on Roshar? I don’t remember a denunciation from Honor, or the reducing the minds of the parshmen to mush necessarily being a part of it.

[ScavellTane]

Its all part of it. Its a build up. The severing of the Singers was just the last straw.

[goody153]

I think the singers being the natives of the land is just one of the reasons and not the main reason why they "betrayed their spren". We don't know enough yet maybe in the later books we'll learn more

Edited August 2, 2018 by goody153

[Calderis he/him]

@KalaDANG that is the reason stated in book... And it's not enough.

The Stormfather says that that wasn't the only time that their origins had been discovered but that normally Honor helped to ease their consciences, and this time he "raved about how they would destroy Roshar."

Add in that in every vision there were no Parshmen, and the gem archive speaks about the abandonment of Urithiru, the plan to trap BAM, and never once the Recreance... 

It was all a part of it. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Calderis

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

@KalaDANG that is the reason stated in book... And it's not enough.

The Stormfather says that that wasn't the only time that their origins had been discovered but that normal Honor helped to ease their consciences, and this time he "raved about how they would destroy Roshar."

Add in every vision there were no Parshmen, and the gem archive speaks about the abandonment of Urithiru, the plan to trap BAM, and never once the Recreance... 

It was all a part of it. 

The Recreance couldnt be part of the Gem archive right?  I mean, there'd have been no Radiants left to record it, the archive would have to predate it, no?

 

I could see whatever actions that hobbled the parshman being the step over the line that changed Honor's mind, if he was indeed all about Bonds and they started using their surges to directly Break Bonds on that scale, I could see that being a dangerous perversion of Honor's Intent (from said Intent's POV).

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The Recreance couldnt be part of the Gem archive right?  I mean, there'd have been no Radiants left to record it, the archive would have to predate it, no?

Yes, but there were no plans for it. 

[Quantus he/him]

Im not sure I understand, youre thinking they'd have pre-planned and recorded the Recreance?  I was thinking of it as more of an event, a mass decision (that may or may not have been entirely voluntary on all parts) than a political movement. 

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Quantus said:

Im not sure I understand, youre thinking they'd have pre-planned and recorded the Recreance?  I was thinking of it as more of an event, a mass decision (that may or may not have been entirely voluntary on all parts) than a political movement. 

That's my point... They were already abandoning Urithiru. They were planning a way to end the fighting. There was no plan for the end of the Radiants. Something happened to spark that event, and it was after those recordings. 

Trapping BAM and crippling the Parsh was the instigating event. 

[Weltall]

10 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Are we certain the Listeners views were in minority amongst the Singers during the Last Desolation?

All we can say for certain is that they're the only ones who were willing or able to take the steps that led to their being unconnected to Ba Ado Mishram and thus unaffected by her trapping and the backlash that had among the rest of the Parsh. There may have been others who wanted to take that step but weren't able to do so, but we'll never know now. Here's what Eshonai's mother had to say about it.

Quote

“The Last Legion, that was our name then. Warriors who had been set to fight in the farthest plains, this place that had once been a nation and was now rubble. Dead was the freedom of most people. The forms, unknown, were forced upon us. Forms of power, yes, but also forms of obedience. The gods commanded, and we did obey, always. Always.”

So according to the listener songs, the Parsh weren't given a choice in the matter of fighting (but probably didn't want to) and the group that became the listeners were assigned to figh in a more remote area. They might well have been able to slip away unnoticed or at least, BAM would have had much more pressing things to worry about, while other Parsh groups could not. But since they're the only ones who could have any memory of those times and they're well aware of how much they were forced to forget by going into dullform en masse, we're not likely to learn what the rest of the Parsh thought from their own words. We might get some post-Recreance recordings if there were any Radiants who thought to leave a message after the event but before breaking their oaths (maybe in Akinah, we know at least one Willshaper intended to go there after abandoning Urithiru and we know that there's at least one important thing still there) or a written archive that's actually been preserved. But nothing we know of right now.

[Diomedes]

11 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

BAM connecting to the Singers and providing them with forms of power granted them wisdom that have been denied to them by the Fused and Odium. They were on their way to developing a society that is not all about war.

But BAM is an Unmade that is quite loyal to Odium, right? The Listeners left Team Parsh/BAM by severing their connection, somehow unnoticed. Presumably this was around the time BAM was imprisoned that they were not pursued by BAM and other Singers. 

I wrote a theory on this thread why the Recreance happened, when it happened at Feverstone Keep. Remember the Parsh fought against Humans after the last Desolation in the "false Desolation", but before the Recreance and the imprisonment of BAM. Because there were still Radiants around to imprison BAM. 

´The Stonewards and Windrunners broke their Oath at Feverstone Keep, when "fighting was intense" hence the feeling of betrayal attributed to the Recreance. However, that means Feverstone Keep happened before Bo-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned and the Singers were stripped off their forms, because fighting was still very much going on. At least the Bondsmiths were still fighting after Feverstone Keep. Probably there were quite a few orders still fighting. 

This might have been said already elsewhere but I could not find it.

How could the Singers even wage war in the false Desolation against Humans and Radiants without the Fused to guide them?

I think they engaged in a nasty guerilla warfare using, perhaps, even terroristic methods. Thing is, this type of asymmetrical warfare quickly persuades the more powerful side that horrible means are necessary; Meaning: Killing noncombatants to weaken, to terrify the enemy or just because you hate those Parsh sooo much. I imagine a large, genocidal massacre had happened before Feverstone Keep, Stonewards and Windrunners had helped, without knowing it, to commit it. This triggered the Oathbreaking of the two orders. The other orders carried on, until something else happened. However, they succeded in binding Bo-Ado-Mishram.´

To clarify things here is the timeline according to my theory:

1. Last Desolation, 2. False Desolation (Parsh vs Humans and Radiants without Fused and Odium) 3. Listeners slip off unnoticed 4. Genocidal massacre with unknowing help of Windrunners and Stonewards 5. Stonewards and Windrunners end their orders at Feverstone Keep 6. BAM is imprisoned by a Bondsmith 7. Somehow  the seven other orders call it a day

    

Edited August 2, 2018 by Diomedes

[ScavellTane]

I would be interested to see where BAMs loyalty lies. Her nature surely had changed as evident by the ability to Connect. 

What I find odd is that the Listeners were 'sent' away. If BAM was as loyal to Odium as we believe wouldn't they have been killed? They confesed to being traitors. Their 'faction' were very much singled out.

[Calderis he/him]

59 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

What I find odd is that the Listeners were 'sent' away. If BAM was as loyal to Odium as we believe wouldn't they have been killed? They confesed to being traitors. Their 'faction' were very much singled out.

That is not what I understood at all.

I understood it that the Last Legion was sent elsewhere for some perpose and broke away intentionally. Not that they were exiled. Their desire to flee wasn't known. They took an opportunity presented. 

What implies to you that they had confessed to anything? 

[ScavellTane]

Forget it, I was being an idiot again.

Regardless, thats quite an achievement. All of them were in Dullform. There were no dissenting voice in their band.

[ScavellTane]

I would like to point out an observation that I don't think anyone has realised.

BAM provides voidlight right, now, Dalinar and the Stormfather also provides light.

The Stormfather couldn't renew spheres before Dalinar did it. Could BAM have had a bondmate? Could the mention of BAM connecting to the parsh people refer to an individual and not the race as a whole?

Considering the tone of the epigraph regarding Melishi, was the severing of the Singers done purposefully and without consensus? He saw BAMs ability to bond a Singer as dangerous and decided to remove that capability? The Singers were starting to gain the Nahel-bond so Melishi took that away? That would help explain why the Windrunners and Stonewards deserted en masse. Ultimately the Radiants enemies are the Fused and Odium, if the Singers were granted the Nahel-bond they could potentially join Honors side of the fight. 

Is the sibling the Stormfather refer to, BAM? If BAMs bondmate was disconnected, it could explain the sibling being asleep. Is this what Notum was referring to when he mentions severing Kaladin and Syls bond?

Also, it could also explain Gavilars obsession with the words. He had access to BAM but couldn't quite figure out the Oaths to bond her as a voidbinders Oaths is different than a surgebinders?

Did Honor copy what happened to BAM and applied it to the Stormfather?

 

Quote

"Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest."

"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named."

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

Speculation:

If you consider the passages with some spren as having joined the other side (ie. bonded Singers).

With BAM as a pseudo-Bondsmith and providing (I presume) Nahel-Bonds to various Singers, the Radiants would view that as a betrayal and essentially attacked the spren that had bonded with the Singers. The second passage explains that the Radiants planned something (to attack the Singer-bonded-spren(?)) and then abandon their Oaths.

This gives further weight of the Stormfathers claim that the ancient Radiants killed many of his children.

Edited August 3, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

The Stormfather couldn't renew spheres before Dalinar did it. Could BAM have had a bondmate? Was the mention of BAM connecting to the parsh refer to an individual and not the race as a whole?

This is really speculative, but possible. So you say a certain Listener bonded BAM, before the battle at the end of WoR, thus giving the Listeners acess to all those weird forms? We don`t have any evidence for that. Were is that Listener now? 

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

That would help explain why the Windrunners and Stonewards deserted en masse.

 The timeline does not line up with that one, though, as I said. I give you the full quote 

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.”— Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 20

The Oathbreaking of Windrunners and Stonewards at Feverstone Keep happened, before the war was over and BAM was imprisoned, when "fighting was intense". Therefore, the imprisonement of BAM cannot cause Feverstone Keep. 

It did, however, very likely cause the eventual Oathbreaking of the other orders.

[ScavellTane]

4 hours ago, Diomedes said:

This is really speculative, but possible. So you say a certain Listener bonded BAM, before the battle at the end of WoR, thus giving the Listeners acess to all those weird forms? We don`t have any evidence for that. Were is that Listener now? 

It wouldn't be a Listener though. The Singer bonded to BAM would be a pseudo-Bondsmith for them. When Melishi severed their connection the Singer-BAM bond was also lost since I would assume the Nahel-bond has some connection to Roshar itself.

4 hours ago, Diomedes said:

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.”— Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 20

Well I don't know then. Something triggered the Oathbreaking during the fighting and the Severing was the only significant event at the time (that we know of). Although, just because the Parsh lost their forms doesn't mean the war was over. The humans were determined to exterminate them.

Edited August 3, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Diomedes]

4 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

The Singer bonded to BAM would be a pseudo-Bondsmith for them.

So this pseudo- Bondsmith is still around somewhere, or was he killed during the battle at Narak, without the Alethi noticing that they had killed a pseudo-Bondsmith?

All I am saying is, that there is next to no evidence for your theory and it is, therfore, highly speculative.

4 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Although, just because the Parsh lost their forms doesn't mean the was was over.

I thought the loss of Forms reduced the Singers to this weird kind of Dullform, that we see most Singers inhabiting during most of WoK and WoR. It is impossible to keep on fighting in this state.   

[ScavellTane]

Most of the things I post are speculation. Also:

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by ScavellTane

[King Krooked]

From my understanding from reading OB, The Recreance occurred because they found out that the Parsh were the original inhabitants of Roshar, AND the discovery that they had already destroyed a planet through Surgebinding. This was the secret that Taravangian was keeping to use against the Coalition as well. It wasn't one or the other that caused it, it was both. Anything else is Tin Foil Hat territory.

[Diomedes]

35 minutes ago, King Krooked said:

Anything else is Tin Foil Hat territory

I very much disagree.

It seems like the modern Knights Radiant did not dissolve, even though the secret is out. 

Besides these reasons seem unconvincing. There is soooo much more to the story.

And arguing with evidence is hardly Tin Foil Hat territory, which is what we are doing.    

Edit: If you are new to this: My favorite theory is that the Orders realized that the oaths are all about human perception. Humans are flawed and entangeld in messy stuff. Therefore the oaths itselves cannot be upheld: They need to be broken. 

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Diomedes

[King Krooked]

Unless it's in text or a WOB, it's totally Tin Foil Hat territory lol. I'm definitely not new to this lol. I rarely post, but I've been Cosmere aware for over a decade. I see a lot of theory, and head canon pushed as fact here. I'm all for speculation, but lets keep it at that. As for the modern Radiants, they came pretty close. Kaladin couldn't fight the Parsh after he saw they were just normal folks. Shallan doesn't even know who she is between one thought and the next, so to me her opinion is a non factor. The Dustbringer is, and always has been Mr. T's camp. If it hadn't been for Cultivation, Dalinar would've been turned. Lift can't even count past 10, and only wants to eat. Renarin, we're not even going there. And Jasnah only cares about the truth, as long as it's true, she really doesn't care. They didn't have THOUSANDS of year of being told they were in the right. That's like if Christans discovered that Muslims had the true religion, it would hit the fan. It seems like to me, some folks just can't accept that the Recreance is what it is, and they feel the need to make more of it. Just my opinion.

Edited August 5, 2018 by King Krooked

[Diomedes]

27 minutes ago, King Krooked said:

I see a lot of theory, and head canon pushed as fact here

I am not pushing anything as fact here. You can hold any opinion you like.

But don`t disregard the tons of thoughtful discussion as stupid "Tin Foil Hat territory lol" , without even referencing it. 

And another thing. Don`t go straight ad hominem, without having good arguments. That quickly poisens debate. 

Just my opinion.

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Diomedes

[+Child of Hodor]

On 8/2/2018 at 0:58 AM, ScavellTane said:

The common consensus regarding the Recreance is that it happened likely due to the severing of the Singers Connection to Roshar and the denunciation from Honor regarding the Radiants worthiness.

I would go deeper and say that it happened because the Radiants removed the Singers ability to Progress without influence from Odium.

BAM connecting to the Singers and providing them with forms of power granted them wisdom that have been denied to them by the Fused and Odium. They were on their way to developing a society that is not all about war. 

Are we certain the Listeners views were in minority amongst the Singers during the Last Desolation?

Could the Radiant Khazirah have spoken out for the Singers at that time?

It would seem that the Singers were stepping away from Odium and the Radiants practically severed their legs from under them.

I think this is another underlying truth behind the Recreance.

What happened to the Singers is really sad it probably contributed to the Radiants desire to quit.

It seems like they got the idea for the mechanics of the Recreance from the effect imprisoning BAM had on the Singers. They broke the bond in such away to tear out a piece of their souls which made them incapable of bonding any Spren.

The radiants then did the same thing to their Spren. Broke the bond in such a way as to make the Spren incapable of bonding. 

From OB ch. 81 epigraph the effect on the Singers seemed to be incidental, they were focused on imprisoning BAM. But they saw the result and it gave them an idea.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Child of Hodor
Clarification

[Angsos]

BAM is the other really smart Unmade we haven't interacted with right and she got a taste of leadership without Odium. She might not be apparently ready to defect like Sja-Anat but she might not be as eager to be a subordinate again