[OB] Oathswearing and Surgebinding are Two Different Magic Systems

[MountainKing]

Oathswearing and Surgebinding are two different magic systems that interact together. The Nahel Bond is an natural occurrence that can happen when a physical entity interacts with a cognitive entity. We know this because we have multiple WoBs that nahel bonds/nahel-like bonds can manifest with other cognitive entities.

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Questioner

You said in an earlier interview that the glittery things in Elantris...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, seons.

Questioner

I believe that you said that the seons on Roshar would bond similarly--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes

Questioner

Would that work in the opposite direction?

Brandon Sanderson

Meaning what? Someone from Roshar could they bond a seon? Oh, would spren bond-- Yes that could happen.

source

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the bond between a seon and its master similar to the Nahel bond between a Surgebinder and his spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

source

So Nahel Bonds are naturally occurring things that can happen throughout the Cosmere no matter what shard is present in that area. While the swearing of oaths aren't found outside of Roshar. We also know that the bond between a seon and a Elantrian, won't grant access to a shardblade or a shardblade-like item, even if it is theoretically possible.

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Sir Jerric

Could a Seon or a Skaze turn into some sort of Shardblade on their home planet?

Brandon Sanderson

That is theoretically possible.  They work under the same fundamentals but they would need to have something to pull them more into the physical realm.  

source

But spren can't naturally form Shardbladed until at least around three oaths are sworn.(All orders we have seen form one at oath three, but Brandon says not all orders do that.) The only differences between the bond between spren and radiant and seon and elantrian, is that the radiant swears oaths, while the elantrian doesn't. The fact that the both types of bonds are the same and that seon could become shardblades if they had something to pull them into the physical realm makes me to believe there is another magic system at work here.

Oathswearing, I believe, is the mechanism that allows a spren to be pulled into the physical realm. I believe that by swearing oaths a nahel bond would be artificially strengthened to allow shardblades to be created. We know that when an oath is made the Radiant is flooded with power, and that they become more efficient with stormight, and at certain oaths other powers are granted. But why does swearing certain oaths on Roshar increase the Radiants power? Magic Systems are created by a Shard's investiture interacting with some trait on a planet, and access to that magic system has to follow the shard or shards mandate. Hemalurgy ruins a person, Allomancy preserves the person. Both Cultivation and Honor's investiture are on the planet and the designated oaths both binds and cultivates* the radiant after swearing them. Oathswearing interacted with the (sapient) spren on Roshar, which allows this magic system to both have beem naturally aroused and shaped by Ishar and the spren. Ishar then would have forced the surgebinders into the organization know as the Knights Radiants, who would use both magic systems to beat the fused.

Oathswearing is a seperate

*The radiant has to swear to become some ideal or follow some ideology, except for Lightweavers who have to face themselves.

[Calderis]

My response is going to be much the same as you heard in discord. 

I believe that the Oaths are something built into the Nahel Spren themselves, due to the bond heavy nature of Roshar's magic. The Radiants progress naturally without guidance (this does not mean they can't fail, obviously), to the point that Kaladin seems to know the words to his next oath but be unable to speak it. 

For the Oaths to be imposed on the surgebinders by Ishar would mean that a single user of a magic fundamentally changed a magic system. No single user is that powerful. Depending on the extent of the change, a Shard may not be that powerful. If he were capable of that, there would be no need whatsoever for his threat to kill all surgebinders if they refused organization. 

And that's the key in my opinion. Organization. The Oaths are open to interpretation. Creating an organization means teaching a set meaning to each set of oaths. Creating a code of conduct beyond personal interpretation. Creating a group of people to be held accountable to, and in the worst case to police themselves. 

Something like Malata happening wouldn't be an issue. She'd have either learned what her oaths were "supposed" to mean, and failed to advance, or the others would have dealt with her in whatever manner they found appropriate. 

[MountainKing]

I don't think Ishar changed Surgebinding, I think that Oathswearing is it's own magic system, that's only ability is to make surgebinding more powerful. I don't know if it was Ishar's idea, or he just helped shaped it after it began to form naturally.

[Kramerfarve]

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

 

 

[MountainKing]

2 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

 

 

I know of that post, and when referring to surgebinding, he usually refers to the knights radiant, so Oathswearing could count as part of surgebinding, I will make a more detail post later. This post was more of to say that not all nahel bonds lead to swearing oaths, and that swearing oaths isn't a core part of the nahel bond.

[Calderis]

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Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

source

The Oaths are a natural outgrowth of the Spren. 

[MountainKing]

Spren are sentient investiture, and the oaths have to match what the spren are already attracted. And there is another WoB on the creation of sapient spren, where Brandon says that sapient/radiant spren were both naturally occurring and created.

 

Also I plan to change my theory later today, so instead of  saying that surgebinding and oathswearing are different magic systems that the Nahel bond and oathswearing are two different magic systems, and surgebinding is a mix. 

This is getting to complicated, but why is it that only Rosharan Nahel Bonds require swearing oaths or even the ability to increase the Nahel bond's strength artificially without some shardaic intervention?

 

[Calderis]

It's not confirmed, but I believe it's because bonds are Roshar's focus, just like metal is on Scadrial. 

Bonds exist through the Cosmere, and the mechanics are similar, but if bonds are the focus of the magic systems of Roshar, then they are inherently more significant. 

[teknopathetic]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's not confirmed, but I believe it's because bonds are Roshar's focus, just like metal is on Scadrial. 

Bonds exist through the Cosmere, and the mechanics are similar, but if bonds are the focus of the magic systems of Roshar, then they are inherently more significant. 

It does seem like oaths are the focus, but that colour is bleeding into the system as a sub-focus as well (eye-color, gemstone colour). With Nalthis being so close I wonder if there is an interaction between focuses going on? 

Edited July 26, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It does seem like oaths are the focus, but that colour is bleeding into the system as a sub-focus as well (eye-color, gemstone colour). With Nalthis being so close I wonder if there is an interaction between focuses going on? 

If oaths were the focus, fabrials would require them as well. Like metal on Scadrial, a world's focus is going to be a part of all of the systems. 

The argument on Roshar's focus has basically always broken down to either Bonds or Splinters. Recently I've considered that it may actually be the surges themselves. 

I still lean primarily toward bonds. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Calderis

[teknopathetic]

59 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The argument on Roshar's focus has basically always broken down to either Bonds or Splinters. Recently I've considered that it may actually be the surges themselves. 

I still lean primarily toward bonds. 

Bonds does make sense as that is a constant between the Parshendi, The Heralds, The Radiants, the Fused, the Sleepless, and the Farbrials. 

Mistborn Era One Spoiler and non-spoilery Warbreaker info. 

Spoiler

Would that mean that Honour and Cultivation, and perhaps Odium, were blind to certain bonds in the same way Preservation and Ruin were blind to metals? On another note, is Endownment colourblind? 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Journey Before Pancakes]

@Calderis @teknopathetic I hadn't put much thought into this until now; but I see a lot of merit in bonds as the focus.

Gems for example are all about a uniform bond structure, and they have always been a major focus of Roshar.  Perfect gems have magical significance as well, which has to do with the bond being unbroken throughout.

There's also the bond between Honor and Cultivation, since they were romantic partners. It may explain why they chose Roshar.

The gems, whose quality depends on the bonds, have spren which can be bond with those gems.  The spren themselves are essentially a bond between the cognitive and physical realms (maybe a bit of a stretch of words).

Basically, it seems like it's just layers of stuff relating to bonds from my perspective, so I'm really down with this.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Journey Before Pancakes

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

Basically, it seems like it's just layers of stuff relating to bonds from my perspective, so I'm really down with this.

My main focus of it is, as with Scadrial's metals, the way in which the power is accessed. 

In surgebinding, you have a symbiotic bond between a human and a spren. 

The Fused seen to have hijacked the same powers through a parasitic bond in taking a body. 

Spren are literally bound in gemstones for use in fabrials. 

[Journey Before Pancakes]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My main focus of it is, as with Scadrial's metals, the way in which the power is accessed. 

In surgebinding, you have a symbiotic bond between a human and a spren. 

The Fused seen to have hijacked the same powers through a parasitic bond in taking a body. 

Spren are literally bound in gemstones for use in fabrials. 

All I'm saying is, it seems like it adopted the framework already in place.  Spren were already bonding with gems before the shards arrived, from what I understand.  That would mean the natural magic was already about bonds (like all the symbiotic spren bonds of greatshells, skyeels, etc.).

We don't really have a chance to even make that comparison with Scadrial since the framework was less of an issue.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

All I'm saying is, it seems like it adopted the framework already in place.  Spren were already bonding with gems before the shards arrived, from what I understand.  That would mean the natural magic was already about bonds (like all the symbiotic spren bonds of greatshells, skyeels, etc.).

We don't really have a chance to even make that comparison with Scadrial since the framework was less of an issue.

I agree. I've proposed previously that the constraints of a preexisting framework are precisely why R&P created Scadrial in the first place. In doing so they were able to shape the planet to make something that they wanted, rather than merely expanding on what existed. 

I see the natural spren bonds of the fauna of Roshar, singer forms included, as just organic fabrials. 

[Kramerfarve]

I really enjoy the theory that the Roshar system is based around bonds, but could it not also be construed as a symbiotic basis? This focus could also include the ashynite magic system.

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

I really enjoy the theory that the Roshar system is based around bonds, but could it not also be construed as a symbiotic basis? This focus could also include the ashynite magic system.

There's no symbiosis in what the Fused do. They insert themselves into a host and kill them in the process.

I don't see much of that in fabrials either. 

[MountainKing]

I'm ready to revamp my theory.

Bonds are the focused of all Rosharan(the system not the planet) magic systems. The Nahel Bond for Surgebinding, the Spren-Lifeform Symbosis with the fused, the Nahel Bond for voidbinding(Renarin), and another Symbosis with bacteria on Ashyn. The Nahel Bond was magical before Honor, Odium, and Cultivation appeared in the system, we don't know what exact powers the Nahel Bond gave pre-shardaic settling, as sapient spren, besides mega and god spren, didn't exist pre-settling. But we do know that it was possible for a lesser spren to form a Nahel bond.* 

Magic Systems formed by Shards' investiture follow two rules, the first rule is that a magic system has to have a focus on the planet, the second rule is that accessing the power must follow the shard's intent. Accessing the power somehow changes the focus of that power, metal is burned in Allomancy, a command is given** in Awakening, and metal becomes more invested in Hemalurgy.

In Surgebinding the focus is the Nahel Bond and the method to access power is to swear oaths. Swearing an oath artificially strengths the nahel bond between a spren and whom ever the spren is bonded to. Usually a focus for a magic system is not magical but in this case the focus is magical. This permanently changes how the nahel bond works on Roshar. Instead of forming a nahel bond and gaining powers, recipients of the nahel bond are encouraged to swear more oaths as the forming of a Nahel Bond is now the first step in gaining powers in Surgebinding.

The Nahel Bond pre Honor and Cultivation granted powers without the need to swear oaths, after Honor and Cultivation settled on Roshar the Nahel bond was used as a focus for the developing magic system, because the Nahel Bond is inherently magical, the Nahel Bond was affected by this development, so that now any Rosharan Nahel Bond will lead to swearing oaths to strengthen the Nahel Bond. Thus swearing oaths is necessary to progress in surgebinding: using the surges, increased stormlight efficiency, the formation of shardblade and shardplate, and any other abilities that are either unknown or unconfirmed.

*

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Fantasy Faction

Could any type of spren bond with a person (even if the results wouldn't be a Knight Radiant)? Or only the ones associated with a branch of the Knights?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh, that's an excellent question. This is something theoretically possible for a lesser spren to achieve.

source

**Originally is was, "color is removed in awakening," but it was pointed out that color is not the focus in awakening.

Edited July 27, 2018 by MountainKing
Fixing a Fact and Grammar

[Calderis]

Foci are what shapes the power. 

The ones we have confirmed are - 

Metal for Scadrial: In all three systems, the metal determines what power can be used. 

Commands for Nalthis: the color drain is weird, but it is not the focus. The focus is the given command. Which shapes the power. 

Forms for Sel: whether it is written (Dahkor bone runes, Aons, carved stamps) or movement (ChayShan and [speculation on my part] the mixing of potions). 

In ever system, the planetary focus is going to be something that is involved in every use, and what actually shapes that power. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Calderis

[Journey Before Pancakes]

So are we considering the entire Roshar system to be bond-focused?

It seems like it makes sense on the two planets we know of; and the third one has a shard bound to it, so that's a pretty good sign.  It also has some implications that focus may act the same across each system; not just each planet.

[MountainKing]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Foci are what shapes the power. 

The ones we have confirmed are - 

Metal for Scadrial: In all three systems, the metal determines what power can be used. 

Commands for Nalthis: the color drain is weird, but it is not the focus. The focus is the given command. Which shapes the power. 

Forms for Sel: whether it is written (Dahkor bone runes, Aons, carved stamps) or movement (ChayShan and [speculation on my part] the mixing of potions). 

In ever system, the planetary focus is going to be something that is involved in every use, and what actually shapes that power. 

And the bond shapes the power on Roshar, depending on which spren you bond you get access to different surges

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

So are we considering the entire Roshar system to be bond-focused?

The information that we've been given on foci is... Sparse to say the least. Brandon, in what little he's talked about it has always talked in terms of the specific world.

For the time being, off the information we have, I'm definitely not assuming it's the same across the board. 

4 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

And the bond shapes the power on Roshar, depending on which spren you bond you get access to different surges

The reason I listed them was first try and show how they are, to our knowledge at least, all tied to planets.

I'm not sure what focus has to do with what your proposing though. 

I just don't see why you believe the Nahel bond specifically needs to have changed. I don't see anything in the books or in WoBs to point in that direction. 

[ScavellTane]

The Oaths were imposed on the surgebinders because of infighting amongst themselves as aluded by the Nohadon vision.

It lead to near disaster right before the onset of a desolation.

I agree with MountainKing that the Oaths was aseparate addition to the Nahel-bond. Its the difference between a surgebinder (which all native Rosharans are to a certain extent) and a KR.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

The Oaths were imposed on the surgebinders because of infighting amongst themselves as aluded by the Nohadon vision.

It lead to near disaster right before the onset of a desolation.

I agree with MountainKing that the Oaths was aseparate addition to the Nahel-bond. Its the difference between a surgebinder (which all native Rosharans are to a certain extend) and a KR.

And if Ishar had the power to alter the magic system itself, then what need was there to make threats to get the surgebinders to go along? If that were the case they wouldn't have had a choice. It would be fall in line or kill your spren. 

I just don't see how it's possible, or how it fits. Imposing organization in the form of the Orders makes sense. Altering the magic system itself doesn't. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Calderis

[MountainKing]

Ishar didn't alter the magic system, the swearing of oaths was built on top of original surgebinding to create the surgebinding we have today(only difference so far is shardplate, shardblade, and more effecient stormlight usage), now if ishar just used that to reel the surgebinding into an organization, or if he somehow with honor's permission altered the developing magic system I don't know.