[OB] Oathswearing and Surgebinding are Two Different Magic Systems

[Calderis he/him]

OK. I had to do that whole sleep thing. 

6 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

The specifics of the Oaths perhaps. I believe the making of Oaths was mandated by Ishar.

I'm aware of that, and I don't see why. 

6 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

The Oaths are part of being a Knight Radiant. A surgebinder does not need the Oaths as represented by the Fused.

I guess what I should have said was, "the Oaths are a part of being bonded to a spren, which is the only natural means of surgebinding."  The Fused are a hack with no bearing one way or the other on this argument. Their means of access is so broken that they only get a single Surge in a system that is naturally paired. 

6 hours ago, Rhapsody said:

So before the first Desolation we have many surgebinders each following their own (individualized, as we see if we compare the third oaths of Kaladin and Teft) set of oaths.

Slight nitpick here. I agree with the general timeline you portray except for the start. 

The desolations began and then the Heralds were created, and then the Spren copied what the Honorblades blades did with the bond. 

6 hours ago, Rhapsody said:

Some may follow oaths conveying the same concept but they were no orders governing them. As you can probably imagine a bunch of people with the powers of a surgebinder each following their individual goals (even if all those goals are worthwhile) will create quite a lot of chaos.

And this is the part that is absolutely what I'm trying to say. Humans gain surges. They all follow the same general concepts by the types of spren they bond, but there's no greater goals or unifying organization. It's all individual. 

Nohadon was partial to Honorspren choices... But what's to keep two different Windrunners in two different nations/groups/families/whatever from being directly at odds with each other, both following the Oaths perfectly as they see them? 

This is why I keep bringing up Malata as an example. She has obviously progressed enough in her Oaths to have a Shardblade. Whatever those oaths are, it doesn't seem to have "forced" her to be what an organization would. 

5 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

I not sure how this helps my case. But why would a spren choose a bondmate that could not speak the Oath of its Order. Unless the bond was made without the Oath as a consideration.

I think the most likely scenario is one that @Rhapsody suggested already. That Malchin was a squire, or trying to be one, for someone in the order of Lightweavers and was never able to be the type of person who could bond a Spren in the first place.

The in world Words of Radiance was written 300 years after the Recreance IIRC, and Jasnah even warns Shallan that it may not be accurate but it's the best thing available. 

@Subvisual Haze I agree with your timeline perfectly in the first half, and then I have the same issues with the emergence of the spren.

If Nohadon was a Surgebinder, which is debatable in itself, his philosophy that is so heavily associated with the Knights Radiant could very well have been developed specifically because of the Oaths he had already spoken himself. He would have made the first Oath Famous, causing it to be attributed to him in origination, when that is not truth. 

This is not directed at any one of you, but just the way that I see things. 

What we are seeing in the books is currently far more in line with the time before the Orders. There are surgebinders, with oaths, but there is generally no unifying goals or laws governing them. They are free to interpret the Oaths how the wish, and work toward whatever goals the deem worthy. 

The only "Orders" that have been refounded so far are The Windrunners and Bondsmiths, and this only due to the way squires work naturally for Windrunners, and the sheer rarity of Bondsmiths. All of the other "Orders" at this point are just a single person trying to figure it out. Until they're organizations that are able to seek out new Surgebinders and guide them, and that new surgebinders seek out in turn, they are orders in name only. 

As far as what Ishar did... I do think it was more than merely founding the Orders. I think it was the establishment of the silver Kingdoms as we know them historically. Alethela for tge arts of war, Thalath to preside over commerce... All of it as a way to not only just provide stability and order over the world, but to direct those interested, or who develop a bond naturally towards Urithiru.

Frankly, with what we've seen of him now in his Tezim role, I find it more likely that he was threatening to kill humanity as a whole to impose this order on them all then I do that he changed the magic system and imposed the Oaths on the Spren. 

[Subvisual Haze]

5 hours ago, Rhapsody said:

That would be a beautifully logical timeline except Brandon Brandon himself tells us they are a natural outgrowth of the spren (se below). So not an artifical safety layer.

 

Not necessarily, that is an interesting quote though, thanks for sharing it.  The problem is you can read that quote as implying that the nature of spren had an influence on the specific oaths, but not necessarily that formalized oaths always existed.  That quote could still fit into a timeline where the spren initially bonded without oaths, or with oaths that were 100% individualized.  I'm proposing that Nohadon+Ishi had the effect of basically codifying a standardized oath system (same first oath for all orders, 5 total oaths for each order).

[Rhapsody she/her]

6 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Not necessarily, that is an interesting quote though, thanks for sharing it.  The problem is you can read that quote as implying that the nature of spren had an influence on the specific oaths, but not necessarily that formalized oaths always existed.  That quote could still fit into a timeline where the spren initially bonded without oaths, or with oaths that were 100% individualized.  I'm proposing that Nohadon+Ishi had the effect of basically codifying a standardized oath system (same first oath for all orders, 5 total oaths for each order).

As stated above (or the previous page in this case) I agree that it doesn't contradict that Ishar codified the oaths. I only think that he didn't decide on the oaths as a safety measure since in my opinion they were there before. He founded to orders and formalized the first oath probably to give the developing Knights Radiant a feeling of belonging together. 

[Subvisual Haze]

4 hours ago, Rhapsody said:

As stated above (or the previous page in this case) I agree that it doesn't contradict that Ishar codified the oaths. I only think that he didn't decide on the oaths as a safety measure since in my opinion they were there before. He founded to orders and formalized the first oath probably to give the developing Knights Radiant a feeling of belonging together. 

You'd have to completely disregard the tone of this WoR epigraph then:

Quote

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

[Calderis he/him]

24 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

You'd have to completely disregard the tone of this WoR epigraph then:

And I still fail to see how that means what is being said. 

If he could impose the Oaths, there was no need to make threats. If hey weren't bound to the Oaths prior and were able to act outside them, the Oaths would suddenly mean dead Spren. 

Creating the Orders and forcing organization does. That would make sense for threatening those who don't fall in line.

[ScavellTane]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And I still fail to see how that means what is being said. 

If he could impose the Oaths, there was no need to make threats. If hey weren't bound to the Oaths prior and were able to act outside them, the Oaths would suddenly mean dead Spren. 

Creating the Orders and forcing organization does. That would make sense for threatening those who don't fall in line.

I would like to point out, spren don't break promises. Once they decided to incorporate the Oaths it would have been eternal. The ones who did not would be destroyed.

Edited July 28, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, ScavellTane said:

I would like to point out. Spren don't break promises. Once they decided to incorporate the Oaths it would have been eternal. The ones who did not would be destroyed.

Then why would it apply to new Spren later?

Syl had only been bonded once prior to Kaladin.

If it were an agreement, it would only be binding to the Spren who did so. 

[ScavellTane]

Yeah, all spren who came after were created by spren who already agreed to that compact.

The spren agreed to be bound to the Oaths. You view our theory as Ishar essentially reporgramming surgebinding. If it was a reprogramming it would have been a form of corruption. The spren had to willingly agree to the binding. 

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, ScavellTane said:

Yeah, all spren who came after were created by spren who already agreed to that compact.

The spren agreed to be bound to the Oaths. You view our theory as Ishar essentially reporgramming surgebinding. If it was a reprogramming it would have been a form of corruption. The spren had to willingly agree to the binding. 

No, I view your theory as unfounded. I don't see how the things you say mean surgebinders were free from oaths is in the text. 

[ScavellTane]

It's not in the text. It's an inference. If it was cannon there would be no need for discussion.

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, ScavellTane said:

It's not in the text. It's an inference. If it was cannon there would be no need for discussion.

Alright then. It's speculation. That's fine. My issue the whole time is that it's been presented as the way things are. 

[Rhapsody she/her]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And I still fail to see how that means what is being said. 

If he could impose the Oaths, there was no need to make threats. If hey weren't bound to the Oaths prior and were able to act outside them, the Oaths would suddenly mean dead Spren. 

Creating the Orders and forcing organization does. That would make sense for threatening those who don't fall in line.

I agree 100% with Calderis here. I never said Ishar did nothing. Only that I believe he has nothing to do with swearing oaths but instead with the organization into the orders. I don't think that disregards the text from wor. 

[ScavellTane]

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Alright then. It's speculation. That's fine. My issue the whole time is that it's been presented as the way things are. 

I would have thought that all things not directly spelled out in the books are a form of speculation. Isn't that the point of the forums, to share them.

 

@Rhapsody and @Calderis equates the 'laws and precepts' as the organization of the Order of Knights Radiant as a whole.

I perceive that epigraph as Ishar demanding the spren to toe the line. The granting of the surges to men were not planned by the Heralds or even Honor. It was a consequence of the spren bonding.

From the Listener Songs, the 'betrayal' of the spren was not of survival but of taste. Considering that, other than perhaps the honorspren, I doubt that the other spren would have bothered with any kind of oath/ideal as a prerequisite to growth/enhancement.

Edited July 28, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I would have thought that all things not directly spelled out in the books are a form of speculation. Isn't that the point of the forums, to share them.

That's not the way that I see it, no. There is a good chunk of knowledge that we have about the cosmere that is through WoBs and piecing things together that is well founded and well accepted. 

Pure speculation is fine. But with the variety of knowledge that Brandon has given us, if someone presents something as the way it is without a qualifier of "I think" or something similar, I like some kind of explanation as to the reasoning for why it is a given. If it's presented as speculation, I dont look for that.

All that said, I've presented the reasons I don't think this is correct ad nauseum. I'll drop it. 

[ScavellTane]

Ishar's Mandate:

Quote

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

A: This is where the proto-Radiant spren began to implement Oaths?

B: This is where the proto-Radiants standardized/codified the Oaths?

C: This is where the Order of the Kinghts Radiant was formed?

 

1. Was Honors influence/investment within Roshar great enough that sentient spren, when they began to bond humans, did it with some semblance of the Oaths being part of the bond?

2. Syl says that the spren-bond was based upon the Honorblades. Would that imitation include the Oathpact? But the Oathpact was made before the First Desolation where the Honorblades would not have been needed as the Heralds did not intend to return. Did the Heralds then had another pact with Honor when they were granted the Honorblades?

3. Has all the proto-radiant spren always carried the Ideals of the Knights Radiant as we know them or were they gradually shaped and became more defined as the Radiants solidified and further defined their Order?

 

Regular Spren-bonding + Oath-making = Nahel-Bond?

Edited July 28, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Spoolofwhool]

42 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

2. Syl says that the spren-bond was based upon the Honorblades. Would that imitation include the Oathpact? But the Oathpact was made before the First Desolation where the Honorblades would not have been needed as the Heralds did not intend to return. Did the Heralds then had another pact with Honor when they were granted the Honorblades?

The Oathpact was made during the First Desolation according to the Stormfather, specifically to grant the Heralds the abilities necessary to find and imprison the Fused.

[ScavellTane]

Horrible thought, are the people killed by Honorblade sent to Braize?

34 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The Oathpact was made during the First Desolation according to the Stormfather, specifically to grant the Heralds the abilities necessary to find and imprison the Fused.

I would think that at the beginning it would be relatively easy to do as the number of Fused would be limited? 

The thing is,  a Heralds connection to his/her Honorblade is fairly shallow. If it was part of the original Oathpact I would think that the two would have a much more deeper connection.

Edited July 28, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Rhapsody she/her]

5 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I would think that at the beginning it would be relatively easy to do as the number of Fused would be limited? 

The thing is,  a Heralds connection to his/her Honorblade is fairly shallow. If it was part of the original Oathpact I would think that the two would have a much more deeper connection.

to the first part. Yes there were probably fewer Fused then, which actually doesn't make it easier to find them and secondly doesn't give the Herald the abilities needed to capture them and prevent them from returning.

The connection may be weaker than with a normal living shardblade (aka a spren) but that is because it doesn't suffuse their souls the way the spren does. That doesn't mean that it would need a stronger connection for the oathpact to work. I believe the oathpact was made and the Honorblades given to the Heralds as a sign for that and to endow them with the needed abilities but the two are actually not so interwined that the Blades would be needed for the oathpact to hold. Prove of the last point: the oathpact still binds the Heralds even though they have left their blades behind, though more weakly.