How to (most likely fail to) make medallions

[Calderis]

OK. Medallions have been discussed to death, and we know there's one pesky little thing about the nicrosil in them that just doesn't make sense. 

So I had an idea, based on a couple of things that I'm not even sure are possible, that I wanted to share. Both to hopefully Kickstart some new avenues of conversation concerning the medallions... and in the freak chance that I'm right I can say I called it... 

That said, the chances of this being correct are... Low. 

The question of how medallions work always comes down to the nicrosil. It's obviously storing the power itself, but how does it grant it to someone without the ability to tap nicrosil? 

Well, what if it isn't granting the ability to tap nicrosil? What if instead, it's temporarily imparting a Hemalurgic trait? 

Here's the breakdown. 

1. A voluntary subject with whatever power needs to be stolen stores identity in an aluminum mind.

2. A unkeyed hemalurgic spike is created. 

3. A person with the ability to burn the metal of this spike, store in aluminum, and store in nicrosil, burns the hemalurgic spike. 

4. The now compounded hemalurgic power must be immediately stored in nicrosil, or the resulting spiritual changes will be... Nasty. 

5. storages of the appropriate power are made in conjuction with the now "unsealed" nicrosil. 

 

Here's why I think this might work. 

Feruchemy has to be tapped. The nicrosil in every medallion we've seen is never tapped, save in the case of tapping the ability to use allomantic powers with the bands. We've never seen the need to tap the ability to use nicrosil. They also, while being tapped, deplete themselves. 

Spikes are placed, and work continually. You place them, and the power is permanent as long as the spike is in the bindpoint. 

So what if the hemalurgic/feruchemical equivalent of compounding is placing a Hemalurgic charge in a feruchemical metalmind? It still wants to be used. It still presses out word, but the Feruchemy aspect negates the bindpoint. It integrates automatically... At the drawback of interference with another medallion attempting to do the same thing. It's not depleted because it doesn't actually leave the metalmind. 

Its a longshot, based on the idea of be able to store a Hemalurgic charge feruchemically, and the ability to burn hemalurgic spikes to mass produce them... But it's the only thing I can think of for how the stupid nicrosil ring does what it does without the need to tap it. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Calderis

[MountainKing]

I like your idea, but where did the southern scadrialians learn hemalurgy, remember Kelsier gave them the finished project and excisors and they worked it out on their own. Unless excisors are just another word for spikes

[Calderis]

Thry learned it from him... I didn't think that was ever in question. Kelsier showed up in the south and taught them to make medallions, which one way or another has to involve hemalurgy, even if it's just in getting multiple. Powers into people. 

And the word "excisors." excision. They have to be spikes. 

[Spoolofwhool]

Quote

Questioner

Does creating unsealed metalmind involve Feruchemical duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

(hesitating)...Yes. I will write it all out for you eventually. I want to get at least one more book done, then you find out exactly why and how.

Questioner

Because I was pretty confused about the Investiture and Spiritweb...

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the reason I'm kind of hesitant of this, [why not you just RAFO this one right now], but it is not a RAFO, because it is like it's a secret. I want to write it out exactly how it happens, because I have it in my notes in bullet points and it's complicated, right? Cause I want some of the things in the magic system as be as complicated as for instance explaining how a computer works right now. You can do it, but you know...I want the magic to start getting that technical if that makes sense. When you say "involve", right, that's a big word. Why just don't you let me, after lost metal...if I haven't released it, you have permission to come to me and say: "Brandon, you said you would release this, you haven't yet [...]" and I will give to you the bullet point flowchart of how you build the unkeyed metalminds.

source

How do you factor in feruchemical duralumin?

Otherwise, very interesting.

[StrikerEZ]

@Spoolofwhool I like that WoB, haven't seen it before. I kinda want that bullet point flowchart even if he releases it in book. That'd be so interesting to have, and would make it much easier to reference back to.

@Calderis I don't have much to say about your idea, but I think it could work. The medallions are just so confusing, so I don't even know where to start on figuring out how they work, so this is a way better theory than I'd ever come up with.

[Iridium Savant]

So I have thought about this a lot, it is one of my favorite things to ponder in the Cosmere.

@Calderis I think you have given a lot of great ideas to the forums and really enjoy reading your posts but I have to respectfully disagree with your order of operations here.  Step 2 of your plan involves someone voluntarily tapping an aluminum mind while someone else kills them and/or they kill themselves somehow to create the unkeyed spike.  That means there are a lot of metalborn in SouthScar regularly giving up their lives and what we have seen of the culture so far tells me metalborn down there are gonna be pretty full of themselves with all the sudo-worship they seem to get.  (Though I could be wrong here, maybe the reverence that Allik gives to metalborn is because the Southerners treat those who are expected to sacrifice their lives with a kind of stand offish 'you are a dead man walking' kind of respect.)

The point about excisors however is getting us much closer to what is actually going on.   I believe the meaning of the word excise is the biggest clue we have on how the unsealed Nicrosil minds are created. 

So far this is what I have for the (incomplete I think) steps of creating unsealed Nicrosil Minds.

1. Aluminum Mind #1 gets Filled with Users Identity. Then Swallowed.
2. Aluminum Mind #2 starts to be filled with Identity of the user while..
3. Nicrosil Mind gets Filled with Flared Identity from Aluminum Mind #1

The basic theory here is based on the fundamentals of Compounding.  When allomanticly burning a filled metalmind you get the effect of the investiture from the metalmind x10.  We know that burning metals allomanticly is really just a specific chemical key that is opening a path for Preservations investiture to flow into the physical realm.  My theory is that when you burn an aluminum mind filled with identity then burn it allomanticly you are pulling in 10x more investiture than you got sure, but you are pulling that investiture directly from Preservation.  That extra investiture is not keyed to an individual, just to the identity of the powers.  You then use F Nicrosil to store that unsealed investiture.

The excisors I believe are a tool.  I imagine a Victorian era mad scientist tool that has three vials filled with blood that store three hemalurgic spikes.  The device has adjustable settings that allow the user to fit it to someone's body with adjustable knobs and hinges.  Those adjustable settings allow the user to precisely place the three blood and spike filled vials to precise hemalurgic bind points on the body.  You then compress the main connector to the three vials and that injects the spikes into the target.  The three spikes give A-Aluminum F-Aluminum and F-Nicrosil.  That person is now able to flare-store their metallic abilities in the Nicrosil.  The excisor can then be retracted pulling the spikes out and back into their blood vial storage and moved on to the next person so they can store their single metal power in another medallion.
 

This of course is a working theory and obviously missing some major concepts, for instance this is the first time I as seeing the WoB that @Spoolofwhool posted and nothing about this theory requires Duralumin.  So more pondering is needed, but that is what I got so far.  Maybe all of us sharders can keep working this out.  Anyone have ideas on how connection is required in the creation of the medallions?

[Calderis]

@Spoolofwhool as you well know from discord last night, I have no clue about how connection plays into it. There's obviously more to it.

We're still talking about new avenues here, so the thread is still doing what I want it to. 

@Iridium Savant there's a couple points I'd like to address.

If the mechanics I propose are sound, then frequent deaths would not be necessary. If it's possible to compound a Hemalurgic spike allomantically, then the nicrosil of any medallion could be used as a seed for more medallions. 

The only time death would be needed is in the production of a new type of medallion. 

As to the reverence towards Metalborn, due to their rarity, I don't think I is only because of their powers, but also because of the nature in which those powers contribute to their society. 

The excisors may be more complex Tha  simple spikes... But they still need to be Hemalurgy, which still means theft and likely death. 

[MountainKing]

What if excisors are tools to use Hemalurgy that can cut out a piece of the soul without killing someone.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, MountainKing said:

What if excisors are tools to use Hemalurgy that can cut out a piece of the soul without killing someone.

It's not going to leave them in a pleasant state... 

Quote

The_Vikachu

I remember reading you answer earlier that a person being used to charge a hemalurgic spike does not necessarily have to die. Would that victim be similar to a Drab from Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, making a spike rips off a piece of someone's soul. So...yeah. I'd need to see my exact quote from before, but let's say it's not going to leave a person in good shape.

source

 

[MountainKing]

They will still be alive, and it aligns more to the praise of the metal or we see in Bands of Mourning, metalborn strat of as being more than a regular person, and then they are reduced to something less than a person.

[Iridium Savant]

Okay I am picking up what you are laying down now.  One person sacrificing themselves would create the spike, then through compounding that investiture can be multiplied and cycled to where you will not need to spike anyone else as long as you have the seed of that investiture stored in a Nicrosilmind.  A Nicrosil Compounder will be able to create 10x that investiture by burning it allomanticly then take 90% of what was created to make new medallions and store the other 10% back in another seed Nicrosilmind.

Interesting.

Well since we got started on this I have been searching some WoB, and I did find this one saying that hemalurgic spikes can not be burned allomanticly.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219-words-of-radiance-philadelphia-signing/#e7946

 

[Calderis]

@Iridium Savant We have conflicting WoBs here. Some are RAFO, others are "it would do weird things" and then the one you have. 

I think the issue though, is the one I addressed. Unless you have a willing participant storing Identity, or catch a trueself ferring/full feruchemist storing Identity, the spike would always be keyed to the person it was stolen from. 

[LiquidBlue]

@Calderis, thanks for the theory. I think that we are missing essential information that explains medallions, but this is fun theorizing.

I agree that the name excisors is very suggestive, and hints that hemalurgy is involved. 

I think that it is interesting speculation that the charge released by allomantically burning a spike can be shunted into a nicrosil mind. It actually makes a lot of sense, so far we have only seen the capacity to use magic systems stored in nicrosil minds -- a piece of the spirit web. If burning hemalurgical spikes releases little pieces of spirit web, it makes sense that it could be stored in a nicrosil mind.

The biggest leap is that the hemalurgical charge in the nicrosil mind would reach out to the person wearing the medallion, and grant them the ability. I do like how you use this to explain why the nicrosil mind isn't depleted with use, and why multiple medallions interfere with each other.

If this is an actual interaction between hemalurgy, allomancy, and feruchemy, I wonder if there are other effects possible. Specifically, can any hemalurgical spike be converted into a nicrosil medallion such as human strength and senses, or even single spike hemalurgical constructs?

I am still stuck a little on how the hemalurigcal charge filled nicrosilmind reaches out to the the wearer. This could simply be what happens when a nicrosilmind is filled with a hemalurgical charge, but I wonder if there might be an additional wrinkle. Metalminds can be unkeyed if filled when the feruchemist is also storing Identity, can the metalmind also be affected if the feruchemist is tapping or compounding Connection? We have seen that Identitiless Connection does tend to reach out for the nearest valid target. So maybe it is possible to make a feruchemical charge that isn't locked to a single Identity, but is also super Connected.

Maybe this is all that is needed, and we don't have to worry about hemalurgically charged nicrosil, but I still like the hemalurgical charge theory. Just because the nicrosil mind charged with feruchemical or allomantic ability is superconnected and reaches out to the wearer doesn't mean that the person's soul knows what to do with the charge, but it does know what to do with a hemalurgical charge. Also if anyone could use the charge in a unkeyed super connected metalmind, then you wouldn't have to bother with nicrosil in the first place. Just distribute the charged metalminds directly.

edit: Maybe it doesn't even have to be super connected. The other unkeyed metalminds might reach out with their identitiless connection, but as I speculated, the soul doesn't understand, but the soul does know what to do with the hemalurgical charge when it reaches out. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by LiquidBlue