7/23/18 - aeromancer - Raise the Stakes!(D)(5430)

[aeromancer he/him]

My submission's a few hundred words over the cap, but I haven't submitted for the better part of the year, so maybe we can call it even. Anyway, this is from a fresh project. This chapter is around the 3-4 chapter mark, but it works as a stand alone submission. There's no actual drugs, but there is gambling which is a similar vice, so D for gambling. (Both G and V are in use already) The game the characters play, Siege, was specially created by me for this chapter. 

This is my first time writing something of this nature, so all feedback would work. Especially considering that most of the game's mechanics get expo-dumped. It's kind of hard for me to tell, because I love discussing game mechanics. Seriously. Discuss Dominion with me at your own peril.

[Mandamon he/him]

First, welcome back!

Second, I see your enthusiasm in your comments above, and you're probably not going to like what I'm about to say... I think the story is actually very enjoyable at heart, but you need to dump all but the very essence of the game. Show us what the characters are feeling instead. You could still have a brief discussion of the rules, but it really doesn't matter what they're playing. They could be picking a high card, or playing poker, or the most complex game in existence. What matters is what the characters are doing.

I skimmed most of the middle section, simply because it was all die rolls, and I didn't have any stake in trying to learn a game. However, I am very interested in these two individuals who can manipulate luck, and that gets almost no time in the story.

In fact, you set this up as the big reveal, but it falls flat because we don't know enough about it to be surprised. Are magic powers common here? is it magic? Technology? There's  a fairly strong Star Wars vibe, so it could be either.

Anyway, as I said, I see a good core of a story here, but it needs a lot more focus on bringing out the interesting characters you've already created, and a lot less on the game they're playing.

Oh, and this reads like a short story. This is a book? It seemed to have a pretty definite arc and end.

 

Notes while reading:

pg 1: a bit too much infodump in the first paragraph. You can probably dole out the mission slower, to keep up the interest.

pg 1: in fact, the whole page, while amusing, is a bit of a maid-and-butler

pg 4 “You want a water-resistant pocket?”
--you could put them on the inside...

pg 4: "A wretched hive of scum and villainy indeed."
--er, yeah. I was already getting a "Solo" vibe from this, but this part might be a little too on-the-nose, especially with mentions of "Imperial." This could easily be a Star Wars fan fiction.

pg 4: "I would really like to destroy this place"
--Wait, why? There's a description of how, but no reason why.

pg 8: "You’re the legendary Lady Luck, and the owner of this casino..."
--This infodump is unnecessary. We've already guessed who she is, and there's no reason to do a silted introduction.

pg 10: I'm noticing a lot of over-explanation and telling, rather than showing.

pg 11: "I know what you want."
--yet I have no idea, and it's starting to bog down the story. Why are any of them here and what are they doing?

pg 12: I feel like the explanation of the game detracts from the story. I want to read, not add die rolls. It doesn't really matter what they play. It's about the emotion between the players.

pg 13: I skimmed most of this page because it's just statistics. How did the players feel?

pg 17: still skimming a lot to this point. The conversation between B. and F. was good at setting the tone, but a lot of the rest is a blow-by-blow that doesn't add tension.

pg 17: "The ability to manipulate dice didn’t free one from a gambling addiction, it seemed."
--Wait, so A can manipulate luck? That's a big thing and it's not even covered.

pg 20: "J. can manipulate a die roll.”
--I feel like you need a significant portion of the story devoted to this instead of number-crunching.

pg 20: “Because I’m the one the Director appointed in charge of this team.”
--Not a very auspicious end to this chapter. I'd prefer a zinger instead of this obvious statement.

[aeromancer he/him]

@Mandamon Thanks! Let me jump right in.

53 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

Second, I see your enthusiasm in your comments above, and you're probably not going to like what I'm about to say... I think the story is actually very enjoyable at heart, but you need to dump all but the very essence of the game. Show us what the characters are feeling instead. You could still have a brief discussion of the rules, but it really doesn't matter what they're playing. They could be picking a high card, or playing poker, or the most complex game in existence. What matters is what the characters are doing.

Oh, I completely expected this. Well, not this in particular, I've just never written characters playing a complex game before, which is odd, frankly, given how often I play them. I knew I was going to over explain things, I just didn't know how much, where, and what normal people do when they play card games. (I'm not saying I'm abnormal, I'm usually just the one counting cards or calculating probabilities, so it's hard to focus on emotions)

56 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

I skimmed most of the middle section, simply because it was all die rolls, and I didn't have any stake in trying to learn a game. However, I am very interested in these two individuals who can manipulate luck, and that gets almost no time in the story.

In fact, you set this up as the big reveal, but it falls flat because we don't know enough about it to be surprised. Are magic powers common here? is it magic? Technology? There's  a fairly strong Star Wars vibe, so it could be either.

Yeah, I kind of expected people to skim it. (That's why I didn't feel bad about going over, though that probably means I should have deleted it.)

To clarify, J can't manipulate luck. Only the Lady can, which means J can't. (It's actually a rule, of sorts, that two people can't have the same power.) When he mentions that he forced the die roll, he didn't do it using any form of magic, it's a skill he acquired to be able to perfectly throw the dice that way. Through lots of training. (He does have magic abilities, but they aren't used in this scene) Obviously, I should make that clearer.

I suppose there's a Star Wars vibe? I happen to be a massive fan (read: my current signature is a Tycho Celchu quote) and it definitely influences a lot of my writing. I'll keep an eye out when I go over the short again. The tech is Industrial Age, by the by, but it plays no relevance for this chapter.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

Oh, and this reads like a short story. This is a book? It seemed to have a pretty definite arc and end.

 That's because I cut the thread out. There's actually a scene where the line breaks happens near the end that I cut out. The Lady answers the two questions they were gambling on, but it roughly reads: "Do you know where [Location 1] is?" "No."  "Do you know where [Location 2] is?" "Yes, it's by X.", which is only works when you know why J is seeking that information. (It's in a previous chapter) The suspicion was that the Lady would know the answer to the first, but not the second.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

pg 1: a bit too much infodump in the first paragraph. You can probably dole out the mission slower, to keep up the interest.

pg 1: in fact, the whole page, while amusing, is a bit of a maid-and-butler

Noted. I'll see what I can do to clip it, and perhaps sparse the dialogue throughout the rest of the piece instead of it occurring here.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

pg 4: "A wretched hive of scum and villainy indeed."
--er, yeah. I was already getting a "Solo" vibe from this, but this part might be a little too on-the-nose, especially with mentions of "Imperial." This could easily be a Star Wars fan fiction.

Heh. Change the names and it very well could. (J to Han/Luke, Brutus to Chewie, and F to Lando/Han) Maybe I should do it to see what kind of response I get. What can I say? I like sabacc. (Proper sabacc, mind you, with shifting cards and all. None of this Solo: A Star Wars Cash Grab nonsense.)

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

pg 12: I feel like the explanation of the game detracts from the story. I want to read, not add die rolls. It doesn't really matter what they play. It's about the emotion between the players.

pg 13: I skimmed most of this page because it's just statistics. How did the players feel?

pg 17: still skimming a lot to this point. The conversation between B. and F. was good at setting the tone, but a lot of the rest is a blow-by-blow that doesn't add tension.

pg 17: "The ability to manipulate dice didn’t free one from a gambling addiction, it seemed."
--Wait, so A can manipulate luck? That's a big thing and it's not even covered.

I could (and should) swap numbers for emotion. even still it'd be tricky because J is very calm during this entire scenario. How would you feel about mostly cutting the numbers, and raising the commentary that B and F have?

Also, yes, A (the Lady) can manipulate luck. More correctly, she can control chaos to influence psuedo-random events (which translates to her being to cause die to roll any number, but she can only know J's hand if she causes it, which she never will). I kind of thought that would be self-evident that she was doing something because she dumps her hand the first turn to roll quintuple fives. (The odds of rolling that are 7776 to 1. And now I sound like Threepio because it's really 6 to 7776.) To clarify, the odds of rolling any set of quintuples using five dice are the same rough odds as getting four-of-a-kind in texas hold 'em - twice.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

pg 20: “Because I’m the one the Director appointed in charge of this team.”
--Not a very auspicious end to this chapter. I'd prefer a zinger instead of this obvious statement.

Would you rather him swap his heterochromacy to prove how capable he is? Drop a handful of die so they all roll high? What kind of zinger would you look for here?

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

First, welcome back!

And, again, thanks! It's good to be back. I've missed this.

[Robinski he/him]

Hey Aero, interested to be reading something of yours after quite a while, and to see how your writing has progressed. Let's dive straight in.

- There's quite a lot of information in the second paragraph, but I'll take it all on trust at the moment, as I don't know how much of it I will need going forward.

- Early on, the bantering tone is promising.

- Yeah okay, more names. I think I am just about keeping track, but I feel I've get plenty to remember at this point (page 1).

- As an engineer, I immediately start to disbelieve about the top plate when you sati's bolted into the wall. But it's supported on many, many columns, right? Think of the substructure needed to support a road or rail bridge. Having done that, don't you dare tell me this plate covered in buildings is cantilevered off some wall or other.

- Feels like there's a fair bit of telling, which I guess is inevitable when gearing up so quickly and diving straight into the action.

- 'shone' not 'shown'

- "the streets were a delightful spiderweb of interwoven streets"

- "wretched hive of s and v" - great phrase

- "I would really like to destroy this place, J thought" - For one thing, comma, not period, as the tag is part of the same sentence. More importantly, I don't see anything to support this loathing for the place, because I don't know anything (really) about J. So, this thought feels like very direct telling.

- I don't get any real sense of the U'city being inhabited, so when the kid runs into him it comes out of nowhere. The description is kind of abstract. Doesn't feel like they are there. Are there other people in the streets? What can they see, smell, hear?

- There is also a weird mind-reading thing. What is that about? It goes unexplained.

- "speaking like his normal self" - grammar.

- Cheats? Huh? Again, not explained.

- What? Wait, what happened there? The kid stole something?

- "A few dark doors without lights suggested that those places were ones not frequented or only patronized by those invited" - really complicated phrasing, hard to follow.

- "It was in the center of undercity, though the establishment hadn’t started there. The owner had simply gambled her way up." - Again, I don't understand. The building hadn't started there? Okay, I sort of get it, but had to read three times.

- "Four seems like a lot for her" - But something like that is about him, surely. He's the one betting his house (or whatever).

- "They have a rule about concealing your identity" - Telling.

- Well, I've learned something today. I have never, ever heard the word 'forewent' - thank you  

- You say there are people at the table, but it doesn't feel like it, because we are just told there are people. We can't get any sense of them, sex; appearance; noise; mood; the place still feel empty.

- "Keep it. This disguise is only one way."

- The description of the lady by J is pure telling. It's quite hard to take, very mechanical.

- "wager two questions from you" - two answers, presumably.

- Why is 'Stakes' capitalised? I can't see a reason for it.

- A's dialogue scans a lot better for me than the others somehow. It just flows better, is clearer, and the meaning is simply expressed. A lot of the other dialogue is so slick and minimalist that I can't actually understand it, or is telling, or tending towards being unengaging. A's is none of these things, it seems to me.

- I find all this talk about bankrupting people unrealistic. Have you ever been to a casino? That's really not how it works most people who go to the casino actually do pretty much stick to a limit, because they are there for fun and don't have a gambling addiction. Even those with an addiction, I would wager (sorry, couldn't resist that), might operate on the basis that, if they want to come back again tomorrow and the next day and the next, can't afford to blow all their funds at once. Plus, the best gamblers in the building will be the ones who absolutely know their limits and are the least likely to permit themselves to be bankrupted.

- "halfway through the bankrupt" - grammar: halfway through the bankrupt what?

- "A had either directed them to alternate room to gamble, or let the veterans of the place watch" - I don't understand this.

- "J interrupted their verbal sparring" - I think if you have to tell us it's verbal sparring perhaps it's not working on that level.

- I'm having another thought about the bankrupting thing. You don't actually mean bankrupting in the real sense of the word, do you? I think you mean 'busting' them, cleaning them out of the funds that they have available for gambling? That's a different thing from bankrupting, and I think the 'b' word is misleading in its use here - if I'm right about how it's being used.

- Who is 'G a s t'?

- I'm trying to decide how I feel about the game. It's an interesting game, but the description of how it's played being spoken during the game kind to drops the tension and feels a bit clunky, dynamically.

- I'm finding all the tactics about the game rather boring, but it's largely because I'm not really invested in the characters, so I don't care who wins. Also, major bugbear of mine. The statistical probability of all these triples and doubles, then 5 x 5's coming up in consecutive rolls is infinitesimally small. It's just not realistic. Gambling movies so often make this sort of thing horribly contrived.

- I would advise strongly against using numerals if you're going to submit this anywhere. 100 and 200 should be spelled out.

- I'm definitely not following all this stuff about games and rerolls etc.

- I started skimming at this point, as it was all about the game and not about the characters. I felt I didn't have an investment in the outcome.

Summary: hmm. A lot of detail is skimmed over to the point that the world doesn't feel real or substantial. Names, concepts and organisations are mentioned but skimmed past, so I don't really now what they do, why they exist or what their function is. I mentioned the dialogue and there are portions that are very telling of information, and that makes them difficult to swallow, then there are other parts of dialogue that I just don't understand.

When we get into the game, and sense of character motivation disappears, for me. It's all about the game and that's really not very entertaining. I didn't follow the rules, which seems very complicated. Also, all those numerals; it's like doing arithmetic.

The idea of a story around gambling has been done a lot in film and TV; maybe not quite so much in the written form. I think you need to have really strong characters and a really strong reader investment in outcome to get away with pulling up and game very few people will have heard of and explaining it in detail during the story. Also, I think the explanation needs to be much clearer, because I think you're going to lose a lot of people if it's not crystal clear and uncomplicated how the game works. All the sums will turn off a lot of readers, I think.

I think the character thing is the biggest point though. I think they need to be stronger and more engaging, and their relationships too, for the story to work.

I hope this is helpful. I appreciate it's not glowing praise, sorry! This is a short story, right?

<R>

[aeromancer he/him]

@Robinski Thanks! Let me take a look.

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

- As an engineer, I immediately start to disbelieve about the top plate when you sati's bolted into the wall. But it's supported on many, many columns, right? Think of the substructure needed to support a road or rail bridge. Having done that, don't you dare tell me this plate covered in buildings is cantilevered off some wall or other.

(waves hand) S T E A M P U N K need no explanation. (Actually, this was rushed. But I like the idea of a multi-layered city.) And yes, there are columns. Many, many columns. There might even be a massive turbine built through the top plate to help ease the strain. (And, after looking it up, no, it's not cantilevered. I bend physics, not break it.)

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "I would really like to destroy this place, J thought" - For one thing, comma, not period, as the tag is part of the same sentence. More importantly, I don't see anything to support this loathing for the place, because I don't know anything (really) about J. So, this thought feels like very direct telling.

- I don't get any real sense of the U'city being inhabited, so when the kid runs into him it comes out of nowhere. The description is kind of abstract. Doesn't feel like they are there. Are there other people in the streets? What can they see, smell, hear?

- You say there are people at the table, but it doesn't feel like it, because we are just told there are people. We can't get any sense of them, sex; appearance; noise; mood; the place still feel empty.

Noted. Descriptions will be added, and background will be fleshed out. As for the first problem, J has an abnormal hatred for lawbreakers. Like, an abnormally strong hatred. It makes sense for an inner monologue, but it is kind of direct.

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

- Well, I've learned something today. I have never, ever heard the word 'forewent' - thank you  

Still haven't heard it, only read it.

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

- I find all this talk about bankrupting people unrealistic. Have you ever been to a casino? That's really not how it works most people who go to the casino actually do pretty much stick to a limit, because they are there for fun and don't have a gambling addiction. Even those with an addiction, I would wager (sorry, couldn't resist that), might operate on the basis that, if they want to come back again tomorrow and the next day and the next, can't afford to blow all their funds at once. Plus, the best gamblers in the building will be the ones who absolutely know their limits and are the least likely to permit themselves to be bankrupted.

No, I've never been to a casino, nor do I know how gambling actually works, which is made kind of clear, from your descriptions of how these things actually work. I will have to change some things, then. The Lady is supposed to be a master gambler.

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

- Who is 'G a s t'?

F's original name. I missed one, it seems. (And, on the note of names, I'm kind of surprised no one called me out for naming two characters on the same team 'Julius' and 'Brutus'.)

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

- I'm trying to decide how I feel about the game. It's an interesting game, but the description of how it's played being spoken during the game kind to drops the tension and feels a bit clunky, dynamically.

- I'm finding all the tactics about the game rather boring, but it's largely because I'm not really invested in the characters, so I don't care who wins. Also, major bugbear of mine. The statistical probability of all these triples and doubles, then 5 x 5's coming up in consecutive rolls is infinitesimally small. It's just not realistic. Gambling movies so often make this sort of thing horribly contrived.

It's kind of best described as a loose mixture of Yahtzee, Liar's Dice, and Backgammon, of which I only know how to play two out of three.

So, here's the thing: The Lady can control her rolls to let her roll whatever she wants. Magic. She self-handicaps to stop her from winning every game, because its not gambling if you always win. All (with the exception of one) of J's rolls were generated by a random dice rolling program. Trust me. I hate endless amounts of royal flush hands too.

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

I think the character thing is the biggest point though. I think they need to be stronger and more engaging, and their relationships too, for the story to work.

Noted. That, I definitely can do.

19 hours ago, Robinski said:

I hope this is helpful. I appreciate it's not glowing praise, sorry! This is a short story, right?

Helpful, yes. Glowing praised, no. But I don't come here for glowing praise, I come here help. Thank you very much.

And, it's not supposed to be a short story, though I did modify it to be similar to that, seeing as this takes place around chapter 3-4 of a theoretical book I might right.

[Robinski he/him]

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

And yes, there are columns. Many, many columns.

Phew.

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

There might even be a massive turbine built through the top plate to help ease the strain.

Oooh.

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Descriptions will be added, and background will be fleshed out.

Cool.

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

J has an abnormal hatred for lawbreakers. Like, an abnormally strong hatred. It makes sense for an inner monologue, but it is kind of direct.

Nice.

Be good to have that shown in later draft(s). Not all that easy to do maybe, so perhaps a challenge, but it's a totally reasonable motivation.

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Still haven't heard it, only read it.

Okay.

'Been presented with' then  

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

The Lady is supposed to be a master gambler.

Hmmm.

I tend to feel that she would know then not to risk staking something that she was not prepared to lose.

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

I'm kind of surprised no one called me out for naming two characters on the same team 'Julius' and 'Brutus'.

Darn.

Cross my heart, I was going to do that then the notion left me as I moved on. At least you didn't call one Cassius too!!

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

The Lady can control her rolls to let her roll whatever she wants. Magic.

Ahhh.

I did not get that on reading through, until it was explained at the end.

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

All (with the exception of one) of J's rolls were generated by a random dice rolling program.

Ahem.

I'd be tempted to ask if the RNG engine has a money back guarantee  

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Noted. That, I definitely can do.

Yaay!

52 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

But I don't come here for glowing praise, I come here for help.

Lols.

Just as well   And well said. Me too.

Also, I'd like to retract one of my comments. If you are going to go into all of the detail of the numbers of games and the rolls--which I'm not saying don't do (although I think I will be a (good)  challenge to do it well)--then why not go ahead and use all the numerics. I think it was a problem where the numbers 100 and 200 appeared in isolation, but when you got into all the scores, I think it becomes a style, almost like a textbook, and you can get away with it, as long as it's understandable, and it's SF. I really don't see it working in a 'period' fantasy.

I would totally read another version of this, because I'm encouraged by you saying what edits you'll undertake.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Robinski

[kais]

I don't have this one in my email. Could you resend it @aeromancer?

[aeromancer he/him]

@kais Resent. PM if there are any problems.

[kais]

Got it! Unclear why my e-mail has been randomly eating subs recently. 

Overall

It's really hard for me to judge a chapter in the middle of a book, since I don't have any of the hooks I need to care. I don't know anything about the characters, nor their backgrounds, motivations, nor do I have a through line for the narrative. As such, it's very hard to stay focused and care about a game that is playing for stakes I don't know about. I'm not sure how much help my comments will be. Generally I found the gameplay too long and drawn out, because I didn't care about the players or the outcome. That could easily change if I knew more about them and the world.

On 7/26/2018 at 11:17 AM, Mandamon said:

but you need to dump all but the very essence of the game

Seconded. This reminds me of your battle scenes, which tend to be very elaborate, detailed, and drawn out. But with those, because you spent so much time worldbuilding and character building, they could be really cool. This lacked the backstory.

On 7/26/2018 at 11:17 AM, Mandamon said:

I skimmed most of the middle section, simply because it was all die rolls, and I didn't have any stake in trying to learn a game. However, I am very interested in these two individuals who can manipulate luck, and that gets almost no time in the story.

Also agree. I just didn't care about the game at all. 

On 7/26/2018 at 11:17 AM, Mandamon said:

This could easily be a Star Wars fan fiction.

Yes. Very easily. Nothing wrong with that at all, though. I have been known to dabble in Star Wars fanfic myself.

On 7/26/2018 at 1:06 PM, aeromancer said:

I like sabacc. (Proper sabacc, mind you, with shifting cards and all

OMG the scenes of sabacc in the EU (the old one, before they deleted it) were always so cool.

On 7/26/2018 at 2:46 PM, Robinski said:

When we get into the game, and sense of character motivation disappears, for me. It's all about the game and that's really not very entertaining. I didn't follow the rules, which seems very complicated. Also, all those numerals; it's like doing arithmetic.

I agree with all of this completely.

As I go

- That second paragraph is wordy in the dialogue. I think it would work if we were first introduced to the character, but since I have no investment in them, it comes off as very 'Joss Whedon.'

- page four: your Star Wars line probably would have to be said in dialogue to not be copyright infringement. I think. 

- page six: the only female in this narrative thus far is a casino, apparently

- page seven: I'm unclear at this point what the, er, point is, of the narrative? 

- page nine: casino owner is interesting, but the back and forth seems flat. If your MC is trying to verbally trap her into playing with him, both sets of dialogue are coming off as stilted. I think it's the dialogue style, the 'Joss Whedon' effect. It can work in banter, especially on screen, but it's generally too wordy for books because the time it takes to read it detracts from any building tension. It might work better to only have one or two characters use that speech style. Make the casino owner much more directly, with shorter sentences, to show the difference

- page 13: while I love a gambling scene as much as the next person, I don't yet care about these characters. I don't understand their motivations, their goals, their fears, and what the plot line is. Without these things it's hard to care at all about the gambling scene. Like with gambling, what fun is it if there aren't any stakes? 

- I don't understand the ending. 

[aeromancer he/him]

1 hour ago, kais said:

Yes. Very easily. Nothing wrong with that at all, though. I have been known to dabble in Star Wars fanfic myself.

OMG the scenes of sabacc in the EU (the old one, before they deleted it) were always so cool.

Sabacc in Star Wars, unfortunately, never boils down to skill, and more or less is a competition as to who has more essence of pure Corellian distilled within them and/or plot demands, and the wins are based strictly on this hierarchy. (Which is why only Han Solo can beat Lando Calrrissian in a game of what is supposed to be chance.) It's very entertaining, to be sure, but I wanted to approach games from the way I play them in real life, which is a strict by-the-numbers approach. In light of the feedback I've gotten, I've reconsidered this position.

1 hour ago, kais said:

- That second paragraph is wordy in the dialogue. I think it would work if we were first introduced to the character, but since I have no investment in them, it comes off as very 'Joss Whedon.'

- page nine: casino owner is interesting, but the back and forth seems flat. If your MC is trying to verbally trap her into playing with him, both sets of dialogue are coming off as stilted. I think it's the dialogue style, the 'Joss Whedon' effect. It can work in banter, especially on screen, but it's generally too wordy for books because the time it takes to read it detracts from any building tension. It might work better to only have one or two characters use that speech style. Make the casino owner much more directly, with shorter sentences, to show the difference

This isn't so meaningful to me, since the only thing I've seen that Joss Whedon worked on was Avengers, but I gather the gist of it. I'll see what I can do with altering the speech styles.

1 hour ago, kais said:

- page six: the only female in this narrative thus far is a casino, apparently

Robinski gave me flak for not fleshing out the casino, so that'll happen. You will not be pleased to hear that the main cast for this novel, concept-wise is male. The supporting cast has a far better distribution, but that kind of belies the real problem. Of the three mains (J, B, F), F is the only one I can conceivably rewrite as female (for plot reasons). It'd be a lot of work for me, but doable.

1 hour ago, kais said:

- page 13: while I love a gambling scene as much as the next person, I don't yet care about these characters. I don't understand their motivations, their goals, their fears, and what the plot line is. Without these things it's hard to care at all about the gambling scene. Like with gambling, what fun is it if there aren't any stakes? 

- I don't understand the ending. 

The main reasons I submitted this was purely for the gambling scene, but, as you point out, gambling is kind of meaningless without stakes. The difficulty present is that the stakes here aren't really supposed to be explicit as this point in the plot. What J wagers is completely useless, as far as the plot is concerned. What he wants is the potential to ask a question, because his superior believes that the Lady knows something about something which may destroy the world.

Yeah, even with the full backstory to this chapter, the stakes are lacking. I'll just have J wager something with actual stakes.

And the ending is unclear, yes. It's supposed to be a reveal that J is dexterous enough to roll die with whatever number he feels like, but that kind of got loss. There was supposed to be another reveal as well, but this chapter needs rewriting, badly. I mentioned this to Robinski, and he indicated he'd like to see it resubmitted. So, in the event that does happen, I would hate to spoil the real reveal.

Edited August 3, 2018 by aeromancer

[shatteredsmooth]

Overall:

This almost felt like a self contained story instead of an opening chapter, as you said in the post. The scenes initial conflict of gambling to get the info was resolved, though I am left wanting to read on to find out what information J got.

I also liked the way you set up to reveal J was able to manipulate dice, though I think it would’ve had more impact if I knew him a little better. I felt stuck on the surface of these characters, almost like they were tropes with some personality but not enough to make them real in my head. They’re not all that poorly developed. There just seems to be something missing from them…says the person whose characters lack depth and emotion.

The Undercity with all its twisty dark streets felt a little cliché, along with Lady Luck, but that can work if it is what you want. The lady herself actually felt like the most unique character to me, especially the way you showed her gambling addiction during that last game. That was fantastic!

The way the rules of the game were set up worked for me. I got a little confused, but then in real life, I never understand a game’s rules the first time someone explains them. If I reread just to learn them, more than likely, they would be clear. It didn’t feel too info dumpy.

I think the big thing for this section is to really flush out each character’s uniqueness and if it is part of a larger work and not a standalone, maybe end with a little more of a hook.

I’m looking forward to more!

 

 

As I read:

 

… “Sure. Let’s go. Yay.” I reread this interaction a few times to make sense of it, but I still laughed.

“And Dark Eye wants…” Something about this confused me.

“...Brutus’ frame will compensate…” I kind of get the point, but the sentence didn’t really make sense

“Equal to intelligence to the rest…” Something is off with the two to’s

“area of the capitol” So far there has been a good balance of dialogue and exposition, but the Brutus as dumb muscle seems forced and cliché. It almost seems stuck in the middle of just breaking the trope and not having Brutus act like a brute at all and Brutus intentionally playing into it to fool people who aren’t his friends.

“using tracks” You used tracks a lot close together and it stood out to me.

“…fixed. The water” Are you intentionally leaving something out here, beside the period? Something felt missing between this and the scene break.

“Won’t water get trapped” Well if the pocket is water resistant and its sealed, is the water going to get in there in the first place? Or maybe I’m thinking water proof, not resistant.

“Wouldn’t be affected.” What wouldn’t be affected?

“You’re the legendary…” This felt forced, and like it was an info dump masked as dialogue

“Worse more than anything” is worse supposed to be worth?

…”as well as run the highest stakes.” Something seems off in this sentence.

“The sensitive information” this phrase was a little too vague. Maybe sensitive isn’t the right word?

“saw you roll a…” They seemed to say a lot out loud while playing. Is this something gamblers do to confuse each other? It felt a little forced and unrealistic to me, but then I don’t really gamble…unless you count occasionally playing poker with M & M’s.

“Bring it!” seemed out of character

[shatteredsmooth]

On 7/26/2018 at 4:06 PM, aeromancer said:

Through lots of training. (He does have magic abilities, but they aren't used in this scene) Obviously, I should make that clearer.

I had assumed the die role was some kind of magic, not luck, but like a subtle Magneto thing. 

 

On 7/26/2018 at 4:06 PM, aeromancer said:

could (and should) swap numbers for emotion. even still it'd be tricky because J is very calm during this entire scenario. How would you feel about mostly cutting the numbers, and raising the commentary that B and F have?

Writer who always fails to make characters emote chiming in: I liked how he was so focused on the cards and the strategy. I don't have the attention span to do that in most games, except from Scrabble. I try counting the letters, but I screw it up half the time even though they are on the board in front me. Malfunctioning brain aside, the main character's focus on the game felt very believable to me. I just really annoyed every time he talked. I was thinking "shut up and focus on the game" while wondering if that was actually a strategy. 

 

On 7/26/2018 at 5:46 PM, Robinski said:

I think the character thing is the biggest point though. I think they need to be stronger and more engaging, and their relationships too, for the story to work.

 

THIS! Ok, and maybe if the characters were already really well developed, the game with the math and lack of emotion would be tolerable for other readers? 

 

On 7/26/2018 at 5:46 PM, Robinski said:

- I started skimming at this point, as it was all about the game and not about the characters. I felt I didn't have an investment in the outcome.

OK, so I think the point @Mandamon and @Robinski lost interest are where I finally got drawn in. 

Though I do agree what they and @kais say about the world building and characters being rushed and underdeveloped. 

And re all the star wars stuff, I was picturing J more like Kenneth Branagh playing Benedict from Much Ado About Nothing than han/luke vibe, and B as more Adam Baldwin (a la Jayne or Casey) than Chewie. 

My reading of this was a kind out in left field for this one. Yay subjectivity.