Cosmere Beef

[Ripheus23]

There must be something wrong with me, because I don't feel like Sanderson has ever done anything wrong

Let's take a gander at a disagreement... least some quibbling... I felt like 

Spoiler

Dalinar suddenly doing whatever the heck he did at the end of OB

was a little deus ex machina-ish.

[Fezzik]

6 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

was a little deus ex machina-ish.

Yep. In the same way the ending of the first mistborn did. At this point, I trust Brandon enough that I know there is an explanation, even though we don't have it yet.

[Fanghur Rahl]

Since my educational background is biology, I confess I was a bit annoyed when I found out that Sanderson fell into the absurd cliche of having two completely different species with radically distinct physiologies on top of it being able to not only have the desire to but also the ability to produce viable hybrids. I realize that this is fantasy, but that's always irritated me whenever I see this cliche. It's basically equivalent to expecting two completely independent civilizations to meet for the first time and discover that they both independently developed the English language. 

And even if you want to handwave it away by saying that Adonalsium deliberately created all life in the Cosmere to be capable of interbreeding, considering their radically different physiologies, the Horneaters and Herdazians should have way more distinctions from ordinary humans than just an extra pair of molars and strong fingernails respectively. 

 

Scientific rant officially ended for now. lol.

[Gasper]

I really dislike Elantris as a book even though I love the Selish magic systems and their applications. I have tried reading the first mistborn trilogy, it is a good book series but it reads like Downton Abbey got a helping of Game of Thrones Violence, Tom Clancy politics and tame YA fiction romance. I have very few problems with the second mistborn trilogy, mainly because Wax and Wayne seem more like real people and less like a pair of sociopaths trying to take down the government and then end up dead or married to the king. I think that Steris needs to be fleshed out as a character, but other than that, the characters are pretty good. Wax seems like a real person, he has "killed" his first wife twice, and was actually effected by that and it keeps effecting him through out the books. Wayne is insane and an alcoholic to deal with his guilt over killing. Marasi has an inferiority complex and tries to be best at everything to make up for the fact that her power is mostly useless at the present time and she is the illegitimate daughter that no one wants. 

Warbreaker is actually pretty good. Susebron and Siri are basically middle schooler sweethearts who are in the middle of a political power play. Seriously, once you realize what is going on and their first dates are basically learning to read, it is almost Hallmark levels of sappy. And Vasher is basically Batman, which is awesome.

Stormlight Archive is pretty good, I think we will start seeing the repercussions of Dalinar's actions in the next book. Yes, Dalinar is Op right now, bu I think that will be explained in the next book or negated somehow. Kaladin has some major depression and personality issues that need some therapy. But then there is Shallan..... I really dislike Shallan, I think that she is going to betray everyone and kill Adolin. Someone needs to sic Churi-churi on her then soulcast her into air or a Radiant shaped pile of jam. 

[BrightnessSamantha]

 

13 minutes ago, Gasper said:

I really dislike Elantris as a book even though I love the Selish magic systems and their applications. 

Glad to see I'm not the only one! I'm in the middle of Elantris right now and have been having a hard time getting into it. Now I don't feel so bad! I'll power through it because I never leave a book unfinished but man, am I struggling with this one!

[Fanghur Rahl]

Of all the Cosmere books I've read/listened to, I probably liked Elantris the least. Though only in the sense that I like chocolate less than ice cream; I still liked it.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, BrightnessSamantha said:

 

Glad to see I'm not the only one! I'm in the middle of Elantris right now and have been having a hard time getting into it. Now I don't feel so bad! I'll power through it because I never leave a book unfinished but man, am I struggling with this one!

I like everything that takes place in the city itself, so about 1/3rd of it. The other two parts i didn’t like so much.

My biggest issue is the nobles don’t feel like real people. Compared to Mistborn or Stormlight where the ruling classes similarly terrible people, but they feel like  people in those series. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

My biggest issue is the nobles don’t feel like real people. Compared to Mistborn or Stormlight where the ruling classes similarly terrible people, but they feel like  people in those series. 

I actually disagree with you about this. If anything, I think that the nobles in Elantris are the MOST human of all the nobles in Sanderson's various series; certainly way more so than Mistborn Era One. Generally speaking, power does not almost universally make human beings evil into an organized class of sadistic psychopaths like on Scadrial. Roshar was somewhat more realistic in that yeah the nobles were far from angels but at least they didn't routinely go around murdering, torturing and raping innocent underlings willy-nilly as if such behaviour was completely alright; Rosharan culture kind of reflects the kind of division of power and status of certain medieval societies and monarchies. Scadrial on the other hand, well. I think even the worst sociopaths in the history of humanity would blanche in horror at how evil that society was.

By comparison, the system on Sel was basically just a rather unsustainable Plutocracy where greed was rampant. I can't think of any way in which the system on Sel was in any sense 'less human' than the one on Scadrial; some might even argue that many first world countries are like that right now, in effect if not by law.

[+Child of Hodor]

14 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I actually disagree with you about this. If anything, I think that the nobles in Elantris are the MOST human of all the nobles in Sanderson's various series; certainly way more so than Mistborn Era One. Generally speaking, power does not almost universally make human beings evil into an organized class of sadistic psychopaths like on Scadrial. Roshar was somewhat more realistic in that yeah the nobles were far from angels but at least they didn't routinely go around murdering, torturing and raping innocent underlings willy-nilly as if such behaviour was completely alright; Rosharan culture kind of reflects the kind of division of power and status of certain medieval societies and monarchies. Scadrial on the other hand, well. I think even the worst sociopaths in the history of humanity would blanche in horror at how evil that society was.

By comparison, the system on Sel was basically just a rather unsustainable Plutocracy where greed was rampant. I can't think of any way in which the system on Sel was in any sense 'less human' than the one on Scadrial; some might even argue that many first world countries are like that right now, in effect if not by law.

I was thinking more along the lines of depth of character. People like Sadeas and Amaran are far more interesting, fully drawn characters. 

King Iadon seems chartoonish in comparison. He’s a dumb sexist and then the big twist is his human sacrifices. It fell flat for me.

As for the brutality of Mistborn, I don’t think it’s that different from how slaves were raped and abused in America, Rome and elsewhere through history. Some were treated decently others were fed to lions for people’s amusement. 

Scadrial is a brutal, harsh world under the Lord Ruler.

[Fanghur Rahl]

I'll definitely grant you that. They certainly were much more shallow as characters in Elantris for sure. Then again, Scadrial had its fair share of R-rated cartoon villains too; though admittedly, in their case one could always handwave it by assuming that Ruin was driving them to that that way. I just think that the whole system on Scadrial was completely unnecessary in terms of its sheer brutality. A benevolent yet harsh dictatorship would have worked just as well; then again, I suppose Ruin was to blame for much of his cruelty.

[recneps]

31 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I was thinking more along the lines of depth of character. People like Sadeas and Amaran are far more interesting, fully drawn characters.

Speaking of Sadeas reminds me of another one of my big issues.
In Way of Kings and for much of Words of Radiance, he was a great character. He was genuinely trying to help Alethkar in the way he thought best, despite how it set him against one of his oldest friends. Near the end of Words of Radiance, though, he lost that. He just became another power hungry villain, and Ialai stayed that way in Oathbringer. They actively work against the best interests of the kingdom and lose all appeal as good characters.

[Fanghur Rahl]

Wizard's Third Rule: "Passion rules reason, for better or for worse."

Especially when Odium's around.

[Ripheus23]

I remembered another thing... I don't like the word "slatrification" too much...

[supersmith]

My beef. Basically all of words of radiance. The beginning was great. Except for kalidin. Like come on man, bridge 4 is safe you got great jobs but you can’t cheer up to save your life. Then there’s the whole losing syl part. I LOATHE this part. I can’t stand it. I know that it’s important for his character development and I like how it resolved but I can’t stand to read it. The only reason I read wor is because of the big fight at the end. That part is legit. More beef. The fact that szeth just gets to walk around with no problems. Um, WHAT??!?? He literally slaughtered hundreds of people but everyone’s like, ya ok whatever. Also the fact the Adolins so torn up about killing sadeas. He was planning on killing him in a duel. Come on! 

[Fanghur Rahl]

11 minutes ago, supersmith said:

My beef. Basically all of words of radiance. The beginning was great. Except for kalidin. Like come on man, bridge 4 is safe you got great jobs but you can’t cheer up to save your life. Then there’s the whole losing syl part. I LOATHE this part. I can’t stand it. I know that it’s important for his character development and I like how it resolved but I can’t stand to read it. The only reason I read wor is because of the big fight at the end. That part is legit. More beef. The fact that szeth just gets to walk around with no problems. Um, WHAT??!?? He literally slaughtered hundreds of people but everyone’s like, ya ok whatever. Also the fact the Adolins so torn up about killing sadeas. He was planning on killing him in a duel. Come on! 

Clarification: to my knowledge, Adolin was never intending to kill Sadeas if he duelled him. The intention was simply to knock him off his high horse by completely curb-stomping him and to deprive him of his shards. But regardless, even if he DID want to kill him in a duel,there's a huge difference between defeating someone in a duel and murdering them in cold blood through what essentially amounts to a knife in the back. In an honor-based society like Alethkar, those are two completely different moral issues, and what Adolin actually did would have been considered cowardly and dishonorable even setting aside the part about it being illegal.

[Calderis]

@Fanghur Rahl they took the precedent for the duel by boon from a duel in which Sadeas himself demanded a duel from. Gavilar and killed a rival Highprince.

Sadeas fled the arena as quickly as he did because he knew what was coming, and it would have required him to kill Adolin or die. 

It wasn't just a political maneuver. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl]

But Dalinar never wanted Sadeas to actually be killed; even after he left him and his army for dead he didn't. He only wanted to take the bullets out of Sadeas' gun so to speak. From what I remember, there was no rule that would have forbidden Sadeas from surrendering, or at least if there was they wouldn't have enforced it. Am I missing something here?

[supersmith]

Dalinar didn’t want sadeas dead, but Adolin did. Time and time again you hear his inner thoughts talking about how he wanted sadeas dead.   

[Calderis]

Even before the plan was put into place, that was on the table. 

No, Dalinar didn't want to kill Sadeas, but he also know that Sadeas wasn't the type to just back down. He knew that killing Sadeas was a option they may have to take.

From WoR, chapter 22, long before the boon was ever planned. Accidentally Spoilered... Oh well. 

Quote

 

Spoiler

“There’s no need to fight every Shardbearer in camp,” Dalinar said softly. “We need to narrow our attack, choose duels for you that point us toward the ultimate goal.”

“Which is?” Adolin asked.

“Undermining Sadeas.” Dalinar almost sounded regretful. “Killing him in a duel, if we have to. Everyone in camp knows the sides in this power struggle. This won’t work if we punish everyone equally. We need to show those in the middle, those deciding whom to follow, the advantages of trust. Cooperation on plateau runs. Help from one another’s Shardbearers. We show them what it’s like to be part of a real kingdom.”

 

The boon was also done based off the "Right of challenge" which seems to be a duel to the death in itself. 

Quote

“Perhaps,” Adolin said. “But I think you underestimate the position he’d be in, if we do this correctly. The Right of Challenge is an ancient tradition—some say the Heralds instituted it. A lighteyed warrior who has proven himself before the Almighty and the king, turning and demanding justice from one who wronged him . . .”

It then goes on to say that Sadeas would have the option of appointing a champion in his place, but would still lose his shards if that were to happen. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

I agree that he considered it an option, but I always interpreted it as being a last resort, at least in Dalinar's eyes. I had assumed that what Dalinar meant was that if Sadeas refused to yield in the duel, then they might ultimately have no choice but to kill him. But simply curbstomping him in the duel would have been enough to largely discredit him.