What exactly is Nightblood? (WoR spoilers inside)

[menacekop]

My theory; he is an awakened shardblade.  AKA a "dead" spren that has been given a lot of breath, perhaps a devine breath or maybe even more...

 

The only proof i can offer is from a Q&A with Sanderson from the San Francisco book signing....

 

Q: If Nightblood were on Roshar would he be a Shardblade?
A: Yes, they are exactly the same thing. He is a Shardblade that is twisted and is a lot more powerful than normal.

 

Discuss?  Already been postulated?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Can you please link to that in the Q&A thread for easier reference? 

 

That is news to me that we have that level of WoB going on here and I'll have to think on it a bit 

[menacekop]

Can you please link to that in the Q&A thread for easier reference? 

 

That is news to me that we have that level of WoB going on here and I'll have to think on it a bit 

 

I read it in the compilation thread here... http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6605-words-of-brandon-compiled/

 

Which links to this thread...

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6587-san-francisco-signing-audio/page-2

(page 2 is where they lay out the Q&A)

Edited March 26, 2014 by menacekop

[Kobold King he/him]

I thought Nightblood was a swordspren, in the same vein as the ship and the stick that Shallan spoke to in WoR. I thought Vasher & Co accidentally transferred a lot of Breaths to a spren, hence its Shardblade-esque nature.

[JamesTanm]

Breath is investiture given to the people of Warbreaker (I cannot remember the name of the world). Nightblood is the result of an INCREDIBLE amount of breath forced into consciousness and given form. If Brandon said that they are exactly the same thing, that would imply that not only is a large enough quantity of Breath condensed considered a Splinter of Endowment, but that the Splinters of Honor are really jsut sentient investitures in incredibly large quantities. Unless there is something more to breath than just simply investiture, but Brandon has said "investiture is investiture" in terms of Nightblade needing something to feed on. 

Now, having said all of that, that is all entirely resting on the fact that we were told the truth about Nightblade's creation... which isnt garunteed

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I think it's more along the lines of "both are Realmatically the same." They're both ideas (Destroy evil vs. honor, law, truth, etc) given life through Investiture (Breath, Endowment's Splinters vs. Honor's Splinters) that take the physical aspect of destructive magical swords.

[Tempus]

Brandon has stated that splinters other than Spren could be bonded and on Roshar it would act similar to a Nahel bond. That includes Seons, Skaze, the Unmade, etc... as well as spren. Those are all splinters.

 

We know that Returned are splinters, and that they have the fifth heightening. We know that splinters have their own sentience. We know that the amount of breaths used to Awaken Nightblood was roughly the same amount as required to reach the fifth heightening, and that it was done by a person with the ninth heightening. To all intents and purposes, Nightblood has investiture like a splinter, and sentience like a splinter. He has an intent as well. He is pretty much a splinter, in a sword, with sentience. To call him 'an Endowment based sword spren' would be reasonably accurate.

 

I believe this is what causes Brandon to say that they are the same. However, they are likely not EXACTLY the same - their method of creation is different, the intent is different, and it's likely that Nightblood cannot necessarily do some of the things that shardblades can do (like re/dematerialize, or change form). We also know that he drains breath pretty fast, while Shardblades seem to only drain stormlight at a very small rate.

[JamesTanm]

That still makes me wonder about the relationship of the splinters and investiture (investiture being my biggest interest in the Cosmere, which is why I focus on it so much). Still, I think you are right that I am reading too much into the word "exactly", which will undoubtedly lead me down the wrong path. Still, it was an interesting word to use...

[bartbug he/him]

I put a theory on it, saying basically what Tempest has said here. I believe that Nightblood effectively is a Shardblade, except one at the same class of power as an honorblade.

[Observer]

Nightblood seems to be built almost identically to a Shardblade, but with different materials. Like, the difference between a very intricately and specifically crafted bastard sword made of iron, and an identical one made of steel, or some other horrible analogy like that. Nightblood has more Investure in it than a Shardblade, and sucks in "dangerous amounts of Investure" exactly like an Honorblade. It even leaves things gray when it hits them! And like an Honorblade, WoB has it that Nightblood can do some really freaky things, especially on Roshar. It's a sword with enough life-related Investure to become a splinter, given a Shardlike cognitive aspect to destroy "evil", and the powers of a Shard/Honorblade to accomplish the goal.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I'm cross posting this here, but this is based on a tidbit from the SF signing...bottom Q/A

 

So Nightblood = Shardblade = Physical form a Spren can take = Splinter of a Shard

 

Does that then mean that Nightblood is a DestroyEvilSpren? 

 

That is a serious question btw. He seems to be the Spiritual Ideal of destroying evil given full Sapience to his Cogitive aspect via the Investiture of Breaths. He should also then be a splinter of Endowment in the same way that Rosharian Spren are splinters of Honor/Cultivation. 

 

Would a Seon that traveled to Roshar end up in the form of a Shardblade? 

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I just posted this in the other thread, but I'll put it here too. Seons/Skaze can indeed be made into Shardblades.

Q: Could a Seon, or a Skaze, could they turn into a, some sort of Shardblade on their own planet?

A: That is theoretically possible. It's—I mean they work under the same fundamentals, but they would need to have something to pull them more into the physical realm.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Thanks for the find.

 

Any thoughts on Nightblood's spren type?

[Observer]

Nightblood is, primarily, a thing of destruction. I'd go with a subtype of Ruinspren, or something similar.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Haven't read the book in a while, but doesn't Nightblood cause blood when he kills? Hence the name Night-BLOOD?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

No, he basically turns things to dust that aren't alive (lifeless, stone walls etc). there is definitely blood when he kills living people though... which is very different from a Shardblade. 

 

The Q/A indicated that he is a "twisted" and "more powerful" shardblade though. 

 

it may be relevant that every time he kills and blood leaks out that I can find, he is still mostly sheathed with only about 1" of the blade exposed. When he is drawn he sucks down Breath prodigiously and turns things to dust by the merest scratch. 

 

Warbreaker Annotations:

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke that he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

 

[Khyrindor he/him]

Thanks GHM

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

I agree that Nightblood is, Realmatically, the same thing as a Shardblade. What I wonder, however, is if it can be bonded in the same way as a Shardblade, ie be dismissed and summoned. I would guess not, given that Nalan carried it in a scabbard. I would guess not, given that it is alive, in the same way that Syl and Pattern are alive as Shardbaldes. However, I don't believe it can change form in the same way Syl and Pattern can, because Nightblood is literally a sword given intelligence, whereas bonding spren can take the Physical form of a Shardblade.

[Odium's_Shard]

This topic swerved onto some interesting discussion about the interaction of a Cosmere planet and the nature of Investiture cycles of magics that can occur on it.

 

The point was raised that if any other creature of Investiture was brought to Roshar it too could link itself to a human or other Cognitive aspect that displayed its appropriated Ideal. In the same way an honorspren was attracted to a man of honor, and could form such a bond as to transfer Investiture, perhaps such a creature could be bound. So, since a spren is Investiture and is bound to a Physical loci, is this similar to the way in which Feruchemical metals retain links to the Investiture that was given to them in the form of physical properties, or memories?

 

Do all Investiture cycles mimic each other with slightly different foci on different planets, depending on the embodying fragment of Adonalsium (such as Honor creating a system with ideas and ideals)? So the systems created by Preservation and Ruin, while having the Physical focus of metal, embody ideals associated with their Shards, such a preserving stores of properties, or the way in which people are Invested (Snapping when in a situation of Preservation, or being Ruined so to speak with a metal spike).

 

Odium's_Shard

PS: Apologies for the ramble, I flitted through a lot of heavy stuff here quite briefly.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

This topic swerved onto some interesting discussion about the interaction of a Cosmere planet and the nature of Investiture cycles of magics that can occur on it.

 

The point was raised that if any other creature of Investiture was brought to Roshar it too could link itself to a human or other Cognitive aspect that displayed its appropriated Ideal. In the same way an honorspren was attracted to a man of honor, and could form such a bond as to transfer Investiture, perhaps such a creature could be bound. So, since a spren is Investiture and is bound to a Physical loci, is this similar to the way in which Feruchemical metals retain links to the Investiture that was given to them in the form of physical properties, or memories?

 

Do all Investiture cycles mimic each other with slightly different foci on different planets, depending on the embodying fragment of Adonalsium (such as Honor creating a system with ideas and ideals)? So the systems created by Preservation and Ruin, while having the Physical focus of metal, embody ideals associated with their Shards, such a preserving stores of properties, or the way in which people are Invested (Snapping when in a situation of Preservation, or being Ruined so to speak with a metal spike).

 

Odium's_Shard

PS: Apologies for the ramble, I flitted through a lot of heavy stuff here quite briefly.

The bonds are as similar as any other link between realms, really. I don't see much of a special connection though.

I wouldn't be so sure about Snapping coming from anything specific to Preservation. To be a Surgebinder requires a broken soul too, and Snapping can also come from extreme joy – not just protecting yourself from dangerous situations. It's a Cosmere-wide phenomenon for any magic involving receiving external power.

KCHAN

How does Snapping work after Sazed changed it? If you don't want to reveal it all right now, are there any hints you can give us?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He couldn't get rid of this entirely. I don't want to spoil things, but Snapping was built into Allomancy primarily because of larger-scale magical issues. This is getting deep into the issue, but it has to do with a person's spiritual makeup and a 'wounded' spirit being easier to fill with something else, kind of like a cut would let something into the bloodstream. Sazed made this threshold on Scadrial much easier to obtain.

[Vortaan he/him]

I agree that Nightblood is, Realmatically, the same thing as a Shardblade. What I wonder, however, is if it can be bonded in the same way as a Shardblade, ie be dismissed and summoned. I would guess not, given that Nalan carried it in a scabbard. I would guess not, given that it is alive, in the same way that Syl and Pattern are alive as Shardbaldes. However, I don't believe it can change form in the same way Syl and Pattern can, because Nightblood is literally a sword given intelligence, whereas bonding spren can take the Physical form of a Shardblade.

 

I kind of disagree. I see Shardblades as primarily Cognitive entities manifesting on the Physical realm, whereas Nightblood is a primarily Physical entity with an extremely strong Cognitive aspect. From the outside this is probably the same thing, but I think it provides Nightblood a lot of the same strengths that normal humans have, which spren don't, namely the ability to retain sentience without any kind of bond onto the Physical realm. Also note that Shardblades as of right now do not consume Investiture but Nightblood does. This is probably due to his nature as a physical object, as opposed to sprens' nature as Cognitive entities.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I don't think that is what they are, really. It seems to me like Nightblood– and all Awakened objects– are really just man-made spren that get attached to a physical object. You form an idea, a Command, in your head, give it life through Breath (with less breath meaning less living, less sentient, just like Nahel spren vs. normal spren), and then paste it onto a scarf, or sword, or corpse, et cetera. But they're still a spren-ish being even if they've been taped to an object. Nightblood's a Cognitive entity still– he's 'Destroy Evil', not "I am a stick sword."

[Odium's_Shard]

I think you're right to imply that a Command in Awakening is almost parallel to a spren in Surgebinding. They're the Cognitive aspect of the magic. I think I might have implied elsewhere that when Investiture is grafted onto the Physical object (human, sword, metal) this is done through some sort of Cognitive bridge that shapes the Investiture (in my opinion).

 

As for Shardblades not consuming Investiture, do we know if a Shardblade that is not of a Nahel bond (one that has a gemstone in its hilt) doesn't consume Stormlight? Because it seems to operate as some sort of fabrial. I don't know what it would use this Stormlight for (in Shardplate, that takes Stormlight to repair itself), but then we don't know why Nightblood needs Breath (presumably it could sit sheathed forever and be fine).

 

Lastly, on the point about Snapping, you're probably right (I was making a very tenuous link). I like the Brandon quote about having a broken Spiritual aspect allows something else (the Investiture key) to be grafted on more easily. In this way, Shallan, Renarin, Kaladin and Dalinar could all be considered those with a broken Spirit (though the Edgedancing girl seems quite happy, and the old man who can heal quite at peace).

[Vortaan he/him]

I don't think that is what they are, really. It seems to me like Nightblood– and all Awakened objects– are really just man-made spren that get attached to a physical object. You form an idea, a Command, in your head, give it life through Breath (with less breath meaning less living, less sentient, just like Nahel spren vs. normal spren), and then paste it onto a scarf, or sword, or corpse, et cetera. But they're still a spren-ish being even if they've been taped to an object. Nightblood's a Cognitive entity still– he's 'Destroy Evil', not "I am a stick sword."

 

However, if you removed the Command somehow, the sword would still be there. If you removed Syl from the Physical realm, there's nothing left. I honestly feel Nightblood has more in common with people than with spren, but I'll agree to disagree until we have more information.

[Odium's_Shard]

In the same way that I have discussed spren moving to the Physical Realm in a different thread, it might be possible for Nightblood to fulfil a similar Realmatic role (like a spren) while still having a large Physical presence, or even being anchored in the Physical Realm.

 

Odium's_Shard