Jasnah's potential matches

[Meerletalis]

Jasnah and Kaladin in a sour face face-off would be amusing, but it would not have to be romantic.

[Aleksiel]

I really don't understand those of you who want her to end up alone. The series are going to cover many years. Do you really want Jasnah to grow old alone? I think that would be very sad. 

[kaellok]

I really don't understand those of you who want her to end up alone. The series are going to cover many years. Do you really want Jasnah to grow old alone? I think that would be very sad. 

 

Alone?  No.  No one is saying that.  Or by 'alone' do you mean 'no romantic attachment'?  Not everyone judges their self-worth based on having a romantic partner.  She should learn to have close friends; that's an area where she's definitely lacking right now, but there are hints of potential.  But if she's paired up with someone just because it would be 'sad' for her to be 'alone' (because anyone who is single is obviously alone) then I think that would weaken her character, not strengthen it.  That doesn't mean that if it happens it's bad, just that if it obviously happens to ensure that all of the main characters are 'paired up' it would be bad.

[Aleksiel]

Alone?  No.  No one is saying that.  Or by 'alone' do you mean 'no romantic attachment'?  Not everyone judges their self-worth based on having a romantic partner.  She should learn to have close friends; that's an area where she's definitely lacking right now, but there are hints of potential.  But if she's paired up with someone just because it would be 'sad' for her to be 'alone' (because anyone who is single is obviously alone) then I think that would weaken her character, not strengthen it.  That doesn't mean that if it happens it's bad, just that if it obviously happens to ensure that all of the main characters are 'paired up' it would be bad.

 

Noone should base their self-value on romantic relationship; this isn't what I meant at all.

Humans are social creatures, we need family, close friends, love. Having a romantic relationship is a natural part of one's life. Not the most significant, not something to defy yourself with, but it's not healthy (or whatever's the appropriate word; sorry not my native language) for anyone to not have any romantic interests ever. 

 

Jasnah is so detached from such things it doesn't make her look strong and independent in my opinion. Just shows she's hurt and created thick walls between herself and others. She has some strong internal issues she hasn't dealt with. She could be strong, independent and in a happy relationship and I fail to see how this could possibly undermine her character.

[Patrick Star]

I'm in the Jasnah - Sigzil camp here.

 

Sigzil's the only intelligent (and non-evil) guy close enough to Jasnah's age to qualify.

 

Sorry if this was said earlier in the thread, but keep in mind that Sigzil was Hoid's apprentice.  That would definitely make things interesting (assuming Hoid keeps hanging around with Jasnah).

[Moogle]

I really don't understand those of you who want her to end up alone. The series are going to cover many years. Do you really want Jasnah to grow old alone? I think that would be very sad. 

 

I, personally, wouldn't see it as very sad. It's not like she's alone when she has Ivory. Perhaps she could want a few close friends and to work on getting better relationships with her family, but I don't see the need for a romantic relationship.

 

I think she's doing what she loves, and will continue to do so as she ages. She's a scholar, and her work is of earth-shattering importance. Even when it's not that important and the Desolation is dealt with, there will be enough scholarly work to be dealt with that she'll never be lost and without purpose. She can even go world-hopping, if she feels the urge. Her current situation is what she wants, or so I'd guess. It's a bit different than the typical person's life, but then, she's a bit different herself.

 

I also don't see the need for much character growth. I may be alone in this, but sometimes characters are just where they need to be and have no need to change. Jasnah's pretty great where she's at. She might have a few demons in her past, but I'm not entirely sure she hasn't come to terms with them. Her caution and trust issues are a defining trait of her Order (Wise/Careful), so I don't see her losing them any time soon.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

I, personally, wouldn't see it as very sad. It's not like she's alone when she has Ivory. Perhaps she could want a few close friends and to work on getting better relationships with her family, but I don't see the need for a romantic relationship.

 

I think she's doing what she loves, and will continue to do so as she ages. She's a scholar, and her work is of earth-shattering importance. Even when it's not that important and the Desolation is dealt with, there will be enough scholarly work to be dealt with that she'll never be lost and without purpose. She can even go world-hopping, if she feels the urge. Her current situation is what she wants, or so I'd guess. It's a bit different than the typical person's life, but then, she's a bit different herself.

 

I also don't see the need for much character growth. I may be alone in this, but sometimes characters are just where they need to be and have no need to change. Jasnah's pretty great where she's at. She might have a few demons in her past, but I'm not entirely sure she hasn't come to terms with them. Her caution and trust issues are a defining trait of her Order (Wise/Careful), so I don't see her losing them any time.

 

Sure, if that's what she truly wants. But first she's gonna need to find close friends. She's terrible when it comes to connecting with others.

 

The way I see it now, her behavior is a result of traumatic experience in her childhood and therefor is an issue that needs to be resolved. No, I don't have solid proof and if turns out it's not the case, then sure. Of course, there are people that are self-sufficient and don't really need others, but Shallan feels like a better example of such a case. So far Jasnah seems to me too emotionally detached from all people (her family included) in a way that looks like some self-preservation due to some sort of fear. 

 

But even if she's happy the way things are now, does it mean nothing should change? Just because she isn't seeking a romantic relationship doesn't mean one will somehow interfere and ruin her character. It's just this is my over all impression of people saying she's good on her own as if having a significant other somehow would make her weak and ruin her character, which this makes no sense to me.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Aleksiel

[kaellok]

Noone should base their self-value on romantic relationship; this isn't what I meant at all.

Humans are social creatures, we need family, close friends, love. Having a romantic relationship is a natural part of one's life. Not the most significant, not something to defy yourself with, but it's not healthy (or whatever's the appropriate word; sorry not my native language) for anyone to not have any romantic interests ever. 

 

Jasnah is so detached from such things it doesn't make her look strong and independent in my opinion. Just shows she's hurt and created thick walls between herself and others. She has some strong internal issues she hasn't dealt with. She could be strong, independent and in a happy relationship and I fail to see how this could possibly undermine her character.

 

I see what you're saying now, and I at least somewhat agree.  The closest thing she has to a real friend is Ivory, and then Shallan.  Having actual, real friends (which Shallan could easily become, but wasn't there yet) would be good.  

 

The concern that people seem to have with Jasnah being romantically engaged is that it isn't necessary to strengthen her character any--and if it's done in a "ALL THE MAIN CHARACTERS MUST HAVE LOVE INTERESTS HURRAH!" manner, then it would weaken her current strengths.  Of course, if it's done well then that argument flies out the window; it'll just be harder to have a convincing, realistic romantic relationship for her than a convincing, realistic and deep friendship with other people.  If you contrast that with, well, most of the other characters--they all feel deeply and strongly, even if not exactly love.  We've seen the breadth and depth of their emotions, and so it's not such a huge leap for me to accept them falling deeply, madly in love.  

 

Maybe Jasnah does too; we just haven't seen much of her yet, and nearly all of that has been through other people's eyes.

[Seloun]

Really?  Nothing gets a girl in the mood like killing her father i guess...

 

Well, that's the 'established drama'. It's just a matter of putting Jasnah and Szeth in a box that they have to work together to get out of. Basically the chasm scene with Kaladin and Shallan (people with externalities causing conflict, but are underlying very compatible) except even more intense. Especially if Szeth is repentant. I could see Szeth offering Jasnah her revenge in the right situation, but Jasnah being Jasnah will want to know why Szeth did the things he did, first.

 

Jasnah is actually perhaps the best person to forgive him for what he did during his time as Truthless - Gavilar's murder is where Szeth really begins his fall into darkness, and Jasnah is probably the person most invested in Gavilar (Navani clearly had problems with Gavilar, and Elhokar is more jealous of his father than anything else; Dalinar seems to have always viewed Gavilar's death as _Dalinar's_ failure, and appears to have reconciled himself with that in WoR). If Jasnah is able to forgive (or at least empathize or understand), it would be a huge step in Szeth's recovery.

 

None of this is necessarily indication of a romantic relationship, but there are clearly massive issues that will have to be worked out between the two, more than probably any of the other protagonists and Jasnah.

[Satsuoni]

Noone should base their self-value on romantic relationship; this isn't what I meant at all.

Humans are social creatures, we need family, close friends, love. Having a romantic relationship is a natural part of one's life. Not the most significant, not something to defy yourself with, but it's not healthy (or whatever's the appropriate word; sorry not my native language) for anyone to not have any romantic interests ever.

Natural? I know I will probably anger some people by this, but speak for yourself   I have no idea how to feel love, and what I feel in that department is highly annoying at most times, feeling like another mind with a completely different set of priorities invading on my normal "thinking" and skewing my judgement into being more biased and disgusting. Personally, it is as natural as Ruin's control over Marsh.

 

Jasnah is so detached from such things it doesn't make her look strong and independent in my opinion. Just shows she's hurt and created thick walls between herself and others. She has some strong internal issues she hasn't dealt with. She could be strong, independent and in a happy relationship and I fail to see how this could possibly undermine her character.

So? Some issues are not dealt with for a reason, and are better left alone. Essentially, I agree with the above posters - her romantic relationship with somebody *can* be written well enough not to feel like a character break, but, IMO, doesn't need to exist (unless it is with a spren. She does spend a bit of time in Shadesmar where some spren seem to be more solid and human-shaped. But that is just me)

 

 

I also don't see the need for much character growth. I may be alone in this, but sometimes characters are just where they need to be and have no need to change. Jasnah's pretty great where she's at. She might have a few demons in her past, but I'm not entirely sure she hasn't come to terms with them. Her caution and trust issues are a defining trait of her Order (Wise/Careful), so I don't see her losing them any time soon.

Surprisingly enough, I agree totally. All too often, change for the sake of change just leads to character corruption... I wish more characters stayed the same, actually (while growing in power ).

[Tazren]

Noone should base their self-value on romantic relationship; this isn't what I meant at all.

Humans are social creatures, we need family, close friends, love. Having a romantic relationship is a natural part of one's life. Not the most significant, not something to defy yourself with, but it's not healthy (or whatever's the appropriate word; sorry not my native language) for anyone to not have any romantic interests ever. 

 

Jasnah is so detached from such things it doesn't make her look strong and independent in my opinion. Just shows she's hurt and created thick walls between herself and others. She has some strong internal issues she hasn't dealt with. She could be strong, independent and in a happy relationship and I fail to see how this could possibly undermine her character.

 

Not everyone even wants to be in a romantic relationship. Just like some people are asexual, some are aromantic. Some people might prefer shorter relationships to life-long ones. It's all entirely individual. You can have a rich, meaningful life with or without, depending on what you feel. 

 

There are plenty of possibilities for Jasnah having platonic relationships with great depth and meaning. Shallan, for one. She could reconcile with her mother. There's Dalinar. And don't forget Ivory. Then there are other characters that might appear in the rest of the series.

 

I would go so far as to say that a character doesn't even need meaningful relationships with other characters. They need meaningful connections to them. Szeth, for instance, doesn't really have any relationships, so far as we've seen. He does have a very meaningful connection with Kaladin, however. He'll probably have one with his herald. Would it be interesting to see something more of a (non-romantic) relationship? Sure. Necessary? No. The connections are sufficient.

 

[Aleksiel]

I see what you're saying now, and I at least somewhat agree.  The closest thing she has to a real friend is Ivory, and then Shallan.  Having actual, real friends (which Shallan could easily become, but wasn't there yet) would be good.  

 

The concern that people seem to have with Jasnah being romantically engaged is that it isn't necessary to strengthen her character any--and if it's done in a "ALL THE MAIN CHARACTERS MUST HAVE LOVE INTERESTS HURRAH!" manner, then it would weaken her current strengths.  Of course, if it's done well then that argument flies out the window; it'll just be harder to have a convincing, realistic romantic relationship for her than a convincing, realistic and deep friendship with other people.  If you contrast that with, well, most of the other characters--they all feel deeply and strongly, even if not exactly love.  We've seen the breadth and depth of their emotions, and so it's not such a huge leap for me to accept them falling deeply, madly in love.  

 

Maybe Jasnah does too; we just haven't seen much of her yet, and nearly all of that has been through other people's eyes.

 

Oh, I agree with you here - if it ins't done right, it would be a real pain to read, but so far I like how Brandon has written various relationships in other books, so I think he's capable of writing something good and believable.

 

I really don't want her to suddenly have someone out of the blue, it would feel fake and forced. But hey, she'll probably be around till the end of SA and that's a lot of time. 

 

 

So? Some issues are not dealt with for a reason, and are better left alone. Essentially, I agree with the above posters - her romantic relationship with somebody *can* be written well enough not to feel like a character break, but, IMO, doesn't need to exist (unless it is with a spren. She does spend a bit of time in Shadesmar where some spren seem to be more solid and human-shaped. But that is just me)

 

Jasnah is pretty awesome as she is now, but I think every main character changes in ten books period. Doesn't seem to have any other issues to deal with except learning how to connect with others; this is basically the only area that I see space for development as of now. I see you think some issues shouldn't be dealt with, but if Jasnah stays the exact same person till the end of the series while everyone else progress, it would be really strange to me. 

 

That said, she could advance as a character in other ways ; this is just the most obvious one to me and frankly I like characters with at least one strong close friendship better. I suppose it's a matter of personal opinion, so I accept you feel differently and I'm not trying to convince you; just sharing my opinion.

 

 

Not everyone even wants to be in a romantic relationship. Just like some people are asexual, some are aromantic. Some people might prefer shorter relationships to life-long ones. It's all entirely individual. You can have a rich, meaningful life with or without, depending on what you feel. 

 

Oh, this is true and I didn't mean to imply it's a necessity. Only it seems to me it's not that Jasnah doesn't want one, but that she fears all sort of connections to others that don't put her in control of the relationship/connection. She doesn't have friends from what we've seen and even with Shallan she's the one in charge. If it turns out she's totally at peace with herself and truly simply doesn't neither want nor need close relationships of any sort, then of course she shouldn't bother with such. 

 

 

 

Overall,  I see what you all mean and it makes better sense to me now; perhaps I didn't explain myself well in my previous posts. My previous impression (proven wrong now) was that many people thought Jasnah shouldn't have any close connections with anyone, not just in a romantic way, but in every other, else her character will be ruined. Thank you for the clarifications on the matter. When I said it would be sad if she ends up alone I didn't intend to imply alone as equal to without a romantic relationship.

 

I think a character can only benefit from learning how to form close relationships with others (romantic or not) and I'd prefer to see Jasnah making some development in the area. Even Sherlock has Watson and Jasnah/Shallan relationship so far is a mentor/student one, which I don't really count as friendship. So far Jasnah feels to me like a very lonely person, not because she's that type, but because she's afraid and I'd like her to face her fears and outgrow them.

(Note: I'm not saying a romance is the way for that to happen)

 

edit: some grammar and spelling 

Edited March 27, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Tazren]

I don't think that Jasnah's been alone because she's afraid. I think she may not feel the same social needs as others. Look at what Navani says, about how Jasnah never really needed her as a mother. Jasnah went her own way, even since she was little. 

If she's lonely now, it's probably mostly for two reasons: her atheism, and the fact that she's been consumed by extremely important work. 

 

Also ...

 

Oh, I agree with you here - if it ins't done right, it would be a real pain to read, but so far I like how Brandon has written various relationships in other books, so I think he's capable of writing something good and believable.

 

 
I guess we're different there. I don't like the way Brandon has written romantic relationships in the previous books. I don't even like how some it has been handled in SA so far. He just has a tendency to write rather flat romances, imo. He doesn't hit the emotional depth many other writers manage. 

[Aleksiel]

I don't think that Jasnah's been alone because she's afraid. I think she may not feel the same social needs as others. Look at what Navani says, about how Jasnah never really needed her as a mother. Jasnah went her own way, even since she was little. 

If she's lonely now, it's probably mostly for two reasons: her atheism, and the fact that she's been consumed by extremely important work. 

 

Actually, according to Navani Jasnah changes drastically

 

 

I would try to get close to her, and there was this coldness, like even being near me reminded her that she had once been a child. What happened to my little girl, so full of questions?

 

I suppose with the little information on Jasnah we have, it ca be read either way - she either outgrew that period of her life or something pushed her to withdraw from social contacts and close relationships.