[Theory] Radiants' Passive Abilities

[Argent]

One of the questions I asked Brandon during his visit to Chicago had to do with what looked like special abilities some of the Radiants-in-training we've seen exhibit. I suggested that Shallan has the ability to take perfect Memories, Jasnah has an incredible sense of direction, and Kaladin is a naturally skilled fighter. Brandon agreed that those skills are supernatural in nature (though scholars disagree - which I can see happening if the spren are considered natural by some, and supernatural by others; if such a debate exists, and those abilities depend somehow on spren, then it's likely that there is a connection here). He also added that I might not have all three examples 100% correct - and now that I think about it, Kaladin's feels kind of lame. So here's the theory I suggest:

 

The Knights Radiant gain not the ability to influence the natural world through Surgebinding from their Nahel bond, they also acquire some of their spren's abilities, but in a weaker form.

 

Let's look at the Surgebinders and spren pairs we know of:

 

Shallan & Pattern

This couple is really the base of my theory. We know that Shallan can take a perfect visual Memory of things, a snapshot of reality, and we also know that Pattern can reproduce light and sound perfectly. Perhaps this is where Shallan's ability came from. It's worth mentioning that Shallan didn't always have this ability - we see her practicing in her flashback chapters, but I suspect the need to practice was a part of her recovery from repressing her memories of Pattern.

 

I am toying with the idea that Shallan also has the ability to... persuade people, to change their minds, to change them - to transform them, in other words. There is some evidence for this: she is pretty good at convincing people  to do what she wants - getting Jasnah to take accept her as a ward, convincing her to not only keep her around but also confide into her, getting Tvlakv to change his route and take her to the Shattered Plains, persuading Vathah and his deserters to fight against the bandits and save the caravaners, getting Sebarial to go along with her bluff and pay her the outrageous price she named, intriguing Adolin enough to make the boy to at least consider love for her. There are more, of course, and so it seems like a lot of what Shallan does is transforming people. 

 

This, if true, would give her one "passive" for each Surge, something that makes sense to me. But there is already little enough support for the original theory, I don't want to look too much into a derivative one.

 

Jasnah & Ivory

We don't really know anything about Ivory, but he must have control over the Surges of Transportation and Transformation. If Jasnah does indeed have a superior sense of geolocation, it could easily come from her spren. Transformation doesn't seem to fit too well with her, so I won't look for support for that derivative theory here. Not yet, at least.

 

Kaladin & Syl

I had to think pretty hard (read: over 10 seconds) about this one. Syl's control over gravity doesn't seem to endow Kaladin with insane yo' momma jokes, and her Adhesion Surge doesn't manifest itself directly... until you remember that she first thought she was a bondspren, she "holds things together." And this is exactly what Kaladin does - he held Bridge 4 together so hard, its members refuse to let go of the name even now. He is also pretty tight with Dalinar, and now with Adolin. Renaring and Elhokar both confided in him, essentially seeking his his help and advice respectively about how to fit in, how to become what they are supposed to be. There is the divine attribute of leadership too, of course. So now I don't actually think Kaladin's fighting skills are supernatural - it's his ability to hold people together, one way or another.

 

Ym & ???

I am not sure we can get anything out of Ym - not only is his bond is pretty fresh, we don't see much of him. 

 

Lift & Wyndle

So, Wyndle has mastery over the Surges of Progression and Abrasion. Unfortunately, much of Lift's thoughts and actions are impulsive, so we never get to see her deep personality (except for when she cares about those who are forgotten, but that alone is not really an ability). The one unexplained supernatural ability she has, her ability to metabolize food into Stormlight, is accounted for enough to know that Wyndle is not responsible for it. Plus, I am not even sure how Wyndle's two Surges would express themselves passively in Lift...

 

Renarin & Glys

I am not too sure about Renarin, but I think he taps into Glys' power over Illumination for some pretty heavy duty insight. I recall the first book mentioning how Renarin has the habit of looking at people in a way that makes them uncomfortable, as if he were staring into their soul, dissecting them, figuring them out. Perhaps not the best explanation, but it feels like it fits and is certainly better than trying to match him against Progression.

 

Dalinar & The Stormfather

Those two don't really apply. Their bond is even fresher than Ym's, and while it's possible that the whole "Dalinar has been bonding with him for a long time" could've give Dalinar something, I half doubt it, half don't want to explore it.

[Swimmingly]

On Renarin and Glys: Progression (interpreted as movement into the future) could give him a sense of fate and the momentum of events, especially with Illumination aiding perception and focus.

[poolboy]

Dalinar changed from the battle focused warrior he was to someone who tried to instill order and discipline in his army and later nation. I think that desire to unite and guide could be benefits on his bondsmith connection. Make him turn away from pure warrior and see bigger picture.

[Truthwatcher]

Interesting theory. I have a question, though. Do we have any reason to believe that Syl's tendency to "bind things" is any different from any other Honorspren's? Or are Pattern's mimicry abilities different from those of any other Cryptic? If not, then these passive abilities would be the same for all Radiants of a single Order. This doesn't really pose a problem to the theory in and of itself, except possibly in the case of the Windrunners. It would really seem to me that this sort of "bonding" would really be an ability of Bondsmiths rather than Windrunners. However, if it is true that each Order has one ability for each surge, then it could make sense that both Kaladin and Dalinar have this ability. However, then it would raise the question of what Kaladin's passive gravitational surge ability is. I'm trying to think of some sort of passive gravitational ability, but am blanking at the moment. Perhaps someone else will have more insight.

[Argent]

On Renarin and Glys: Progression (interpreted as movement into the future) could give him a sense of fate and the momentum of events, especially with Illumination aiding perception and focus.

 

Getting an idea about how events will unfold unless something unexpected is introduced to the system, this kind of stuff? I would like to agree, but it sounds almost too much like his Truthwatching...

 

 

Dalinar changed from the battle focused warrior he was to someone who tried to instill order and discipline in his army and later nation. I think that desire to unite and guide could be benefits on his bondsmith connection. Make him turn away from pure warrior and see bigger picture.

 

I don't think those abilities change you are. They are exactly what I describe - abilities. And Dalinar hasn't show anything too extraordinary so far, at least not anything that sounds like it could come from his spren.

 

 

Interesting theory. I have a question, though. Do we have any reason to believe that Syl's tendency to "bind things" is any different from any other Honorspren's? Or are Pattern's mimicry abilities different from those of any other Cryptic? If not, then these passive abilities would be the same for all Radiants of a single Order. This doesn't really pose a problem to the theory in and of itself, except possibly in the case of the Windrunners. It would really seem to me that this sort of "bonding" would really be an ability of Bondsmiths rather than Windrunners. However, if it is true that each Order has one ability for each surge, then it could make sense that both Kaladin and Dalinar have this ability. However, then it would raise the question of what Kaladin's passive gravitational surge ability is. I'm trying to think of some sort of passive gravitational ability, but am blanking at the moment. Perhaps someone else will have more insight.

 

No, I treat all members of a given Order the same way. All Windrunners are good leaders (I do see the problem with the idea of them being good "bonders" or "uniters"... I am thinking about a solution). All Lightweavers are good at arguing, debating, convincing, persuading. All Elsecallers have a good sense of direction, and so on. 

[poolboy]

I'm not suggesting it stopped him from being who he was or changed him. I was thinking more along the lines of it allowed him to shake off the Thrill which we know is from the Unmade. I guess the ability would be protection from Odium/Unmade influence.

[Seloun]

Actually, one might argue that the ability to receive visions from Tanavast is one of the special gifts for Bondsmiths/Dalinar. Dalinar goes outside, and unlike e.g. Kaladin (who always seems to be talking to the Stormfather in the Cognitive) Dalinar just starts talking to the sky and the sky responds.

 

I'm still inclined to say that Memory and wind-reading are the most likely abilities for Lightweavers and Windrunners. Hard to tell without exact wording, but I don't know that not being 100% correct precludes getting the general gist of the abilities correct.

[PorridgeBrick]

I'm pretty positive Kaladin's fighting is supernaturally based– he remarks how he feels like the wind's talking to him, how he feels like he could continue fighting with his eyes closed. And when he loses his powers, he's unable to do even basic spear exercises properly. If one of your list is off, it's probably Jasnah's geolocation, since that only comes from a single offhand comment Wit thinks to himslef.

[Levian]

Lift & Wyndle

The one unexplained supernatural ability she has, her ability to metabolize food into Stormlight, is accounted for enough to know that Wyndle is not responsible for it. Plus, I am not even sure how Wyndle's two Surges would express themselves passively in Lift...

 

I'm 99% positive that Lift got that ability from the Nightwatcher. I don't have the quotes to back me up but Wyndle talks about how his Mother influenced her or gave her a gift that he doesn't fully understand... Which as a side note makes me even more convinced that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation, or Cultivation's Spren similar to the Stormfather. 

 

About Kaladin I'm also pretty sure his fighting skills are partially supernatural thanks to his bond. At one point Kaladin is talking to Syl and she confirms that their - at that point unknown to Kaladin - bond gave him an edge in combat. Now that could simply come down to Kal holding a bit of Stormlight to make himself stronger, more agile and able to heal, or maybe it's a more specific passive ability of the Windrunners.

 

I can't remember about Shallan but I remember someone... Jasnah I think?... talking to her and coming up with the conclusion that something to do with her bond is what lets her take mental photographs. So all in all, I totally support this theory!

 

Also, do we know all of the passive abilities all of the KR are given just by being able to hold Stormlight? Things like self-healing, reduction of fatigue, increase in strength and endurance, etc.

[Witless]

What if Kaladin's gravitational ability is enhanced spatial awareness that would certainly explain his fighting ability, particularly in situations where he fights multiple opponents, and how quickly he picked up the change in perspective required to fully utilise his gravitation abilities.

I imagine that without the abilities Kaladin is a fairly gifted fighter he would just need to adjust to the loss of all the extra information.

Love the theory btw.

Edit: grammer

Edited March 24, 2014 by Witless

[Argent]

Another thing I considered for Kaladin was grace - Syl certainly is graceful enough, especially when she flies around him as he fights or practices. So I could go with that.

Lift's ability comes from the Nightwatcher, we agree on this. I was saying that because we know this thing doesn't come from Wyndle, we don't know what does.

What Jasnah was saying is that Shallan's art, in general, comes from her cognitive aspect getting it from Shadesmar essentially. She herself can't see the spren, the living ideas, there but perhaps she and all artists are more in touch with their cognitive aspects, which in turn can see those ideas.

[Chlehrma]

If you have gotten this far and still have not realized that there are spoilers, then set down the tablet or step away from the computer, go outside, get a rock, then hit yourself in the head between three and five times. Hoid would approve this message.

BTW SPOILERS ahead.

Very nice post, Argent. I do not agree with all of it, but it was very well thought out.

Kaladin's ability with the spear definitely came from his bond with Syl--the wind guiding him and nothing being able to stop him when he fought with the strength of protecting the fallen. Also some spoilers near the end of WoR when he is practicing with his spear demonstrate that the skill is not wholly his. This may also be shared by Bondsmiths in that Adolin, an accomplished duelist and perhaps the best alive, watches Dalinar fight and expresses a sense of awe at the beauty of his movements. The problem with this is that the surge that links Bondsmiths and Windrunners is adhesion. Nothing about that indicates an ability to fight, but Dalinar has several decades of combat experience to account for his ability, so the surge link may be entirely irrelevant.

Shallan's ability to take memories is definitely linked to her spren in some way. There was something in one of the excepts from the words of radience that indicated that all Lightweavers had some manner of mental skill that set them apart. I assume this to mean perfect recall in one manner or another such as languages, images, etc. Additionally, she has the power to transform people by making them want to be more than they are--though she has to draw a picture to do it. I do not know if this is tied to transformation or just a side effect of her light weaving since it effectively reshapes perception.

Excellent call out with Jasnah and her sense of direction. I completely missed that when reading. It makes sense that an Elsecaller would have a hard time getting lost. This is likely shared with Willshapers since they also have the travel surge.

Ym is able to discern another's pain or point of suffering--empathy/compassion. We see this in his interaction with the child and in his explanation of the universe. We also see this in Lift when she knows instinctively that the Larkin is suffering and how Darkness feels. Renarin looks into people's souls--perhaps he is the equivalent of a savant and this is what let's him see the future or maybe it's because he has double cultivation based surges? IDK. The instinctive empathy may be linked directly to the Growth surge.

Dalinar--His ability to lead men may be tied to the surge, though it is hard to say. He was a warleader long before he started bonding with the Stormfather and having visions. We do see him unknowingly use some surges in WoK like when he saves El from the chasmfiend and the inconsistency of the Thrill demonstrates that he was on the cusp of a full bond (WoB indicates that Kaladin was not always immune to the Thrill but was unaffected after bonding Syl). So it is possible that some of his actions in WoK relate to the bond. As you stated earlier, it is too early to tell exactly what innate benefit may exist.

Sadeas--it looks like the innate benefit of bonding a death spren is that your shard blade becomes unbound and you twitch a bit. Oh, and everyone else gets happier. Oh, my mistake, that was not a nahel bond.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Swimmingly]

Getting an idea about how events will unfold unless something unexpected is introduced to the system, this kind of stuff? I would like to agree, but it sounds almost too much like his Truthwatching...

I don't think those abilities change you are. They are exactly what I describe - abilities. And Dalinar hasn't show anything too extraordinary so far, at least not anything that sounds like it could come from his spren.

No, I treat all members of a given Order the same way. All Windrunners are good leaders (I do see the problem with the idea of them being good "bonders" or "uniters"... I am thinking about a solution). All Lightweavers are good at arguing, debating, convincing, persuading. All Elsecallers have a good sense of direction, and so on.

If their passive ability (future sight) was their most distinctive ability, then I see no reason why their ability wouldn't be what the order's named after. After all, should Truthwatching come from a single Surge, then either Lightweavers or Edgedancers should be able to see the future as well. From what we've seen of Lift's application of Progression, that's possible, but Shallan's Illumination seems to be giving visions of the present and near past as a secondary to the illusions. A sprenbond power that can interpret future events vaguely, independent of Stormlight or Surge, during highstorms, would make the Truthwatcher thing obvious. Besides, whereas Lightweaver Illumination is illusory, Truthwatcher Illumination could be mostly divinatory (so, seeing distances, piercing illusions)

I wonder if, while the Lightweavers use true lies to change the situation for their ideal image, the Truthwatchers must use careful "false truths" that bring themselves about, similar to Greek prophecies in tradition. Perhaps they can see inevitable destinations, so they seek to make the journey the best one leading to the best scenario.

[Colby Jack]

Kaladin Stormblessed
 

Heroic Aura(Passive)

Targets Air, Ground, Friendly, Self.

Damage +30%, Movement Speed +20%, Attack Rate +10%.
Health +50, Mana +10, Armor +1.5.

[Swimmingly]

There's no way to jack a regen effect in there, is there?

[Jedi Radiant]

While I agree that som of Kaladin's skills likely come from his Nahel bond, let's not discount his natural (god-given and self-trained) abilities altogether. Kaldin showed natural aptitude with the staff in the flashback in WOK (when he was still in the village), which I would assume was before he encounterd Syl. Also, don't forget, Kaladin was able to kill a large chasmfiend without any access to Syl and her abilities, as far as I can tell. Granted, he had Shallan distracting the beast and he had a shardlade at the end, but it took 3 full shardbearers to do the same in WOR. I admit Elhokar (one of the three full shardbearers)was a bit of a distraction, but Dalinar and Adolin also had Saldeas with a shardbow, and numerous muggles shooting arrows as well.

 

Long story short, I have a hard time attributing Kaladin's baddassery entirely to his Nahel bond. Kaladin admittedly learned quicker than most, but I believe it has been stated multiple times that he trained more, and harder, than most others.

 

C'mon folks, let's give some credit where credit is due!

Edited March 24, 2014 by Jedi Radiant

[Colby Jack]

There's no way to jack a regen effect in there, is there?

There is, but it's an active skill.

[Argent]

@Chlehrma, it looks like you are focusing more on the divine attributes themselves, and that's something I specifically didn't want to do (my Kaladin write-up notwithstanding). Both Lift's and Ym's (assuming he would've been an Edgedancer, which sounds likely, but not guaranteed) could be attributed to just plain ol' human compassion and empathy. Same with Kaladin's leadership (which means I mostly retract my original write-up, I'll revise it), Shallan's (artistic) creativity. and Jasnah's wisdom and careful consideration. I guess what I am saying is that you need those attributes in order to attract the appropriate spren and begin the bonding process. Maybe the Nahel bond enhances them - but that's not my point at all. The time Kaladin spoke the Words of the Second Ideal, he thought that Stormlight can't give you something you don't already have; Stormlight perfects. 

 

My idea was that each Order's members get an ability that can be used without the need for Stormlight. Shallan doesn't need it for taking Memories. Jasnah doesn't seem to need it for orientation. Kaladin... what does Kaladin do that seems like a magical ability, but doesn't require Stormlight? And, honestly, I don't know - he is a really good soldier, so both his fighting and leadership could be mostly natural; Syl certainly helps, at least with the former, but I am not sure if this counts (mostly because he seemed to have a natural talent even back when he was a young teen). 

 

@Swimmingly, I wasn't suggesting that Renarin can actually see the future as his passive ability, just that it gives him a measure of insight. Simply understanding people's motivations and feelings is enough to give you an idea about what they are going to do in a given situation; except in Renarin, this understanding could be on steroids (the same way Shallan's memory can go into overdrive, and Jasnah's spacial awareness might). Truthwatching, in my mind, would actually require Stormlight - no amount of deductive or inductive reasoning can give you the knowledge that the Everstorm will be created X days from today.

[akintu]

Good post, I have a few random thoughts.

 

1.  Kaladin - Jezrian is the Windrunner's herald, and he is associated with leadership.  Taln references Jezrian teaching leadership, and Kaladin is obviously a crackerjack small unit commander.  It remains to be seen how effective he is on a larger scale.  I think there is plenty of evidence that his fighting ability is at least somewhat tied to his bond as well (with the references to being able to fight with his eyes closed, feeling as if he is the wind, etc).  Combined with epigraph references to the Windrunner's preferring a hierarchy and squads, this seems to point to the Windrunner's being both great soldiers and effective leaders of at least small units.  I view the leadership side as more of a tactical one.

 

2.  Dalinar - Don't have much to add here except for the Dalinar vs Kaladin leadership dynamic.  If Kaladin's leadership is more on the tactical side, Dalinar's is more on the strategic side.  This seems to fit with the Stormfather's command that Dalinar will be a Radiant with no shards, Dalinar's transition from warrior to politician, and the limited number of Bondsmith's (three, right?).  Bondsmith's unite disparate factions, are more political leaders (or maybe great generals), where Windrunner's are more the unit commanders.  I think part of Dalinar's growth is to rely less on the sword and more on words to lead people.

 

3.  Shallan - I pretty much agree with you.  One of the WoR epigraphs mentions the Lightweavers doing something that inspires the KR to pursue a second assault, despite being apparently defeated once.  I think in addition to the Memory part, there is also an element of being able to inspire/transform people (psychology, basically, or lies and truth in the right combinations).

[Numb]

I think Windrunners passive ability may be in their ability to form squads/Squires. We haven't read about any other order having these pseudo-radiants. 

[Levian]

I think Windrunners passive ability may be in their ability to form squads/Squires. We haven't read about any other order having these pseudo-radiants. 

 

That has me sort of confused. I'm not sure if I was tired when I read certain parts of WoR and just didn't clue in to what was happening, but if we saw "squires" I totally missed it. I just sort of assumed that the bridgemen had been living the oaths and attracted their own spren. It would make sense, being dedicated guards (minus a few people who only followed because Kal was doing it).

 

But I could also see it being possible to possibly have a small squad of men to have the general passive abilities of just holding Stormlight, like the healing and strength it gives. Is this just speculation? Is anybody able to provide me with a quote or two that sort of backs the squire idea?

[Moogle]

But I could also see it being possible to possibly have a small squad of men to have the general passive abilities of just holding Stormlight, like the healing and strength it gives. Is this just speculation? Is anybody able to provide me with a quote or two that sort of backs the squire idea?

 

Here's a thread describing the theory. It's very well supported. Particularly considering that Bridge 4 only started glowing with Stormlight when Kaladin spoke the Third Ideal. It seems that was the moment he was capable of supporting squires.

 

We also have WoBs on squires existing and how Windrunners had more than other Orders. I'm not sure where they are, but they're probably in here somewhere.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Numb]

The bridgemen seemed to only start glowing after Kal said his third oath(I don't have the book on me right now to confirm). The epigraph about Windrunners mentions their like for command structures and squires. If the bridgemen had attracted spren then they would know about the spren but none of them mention any spren or even of speaking the oaths. Instead all we know is that they started glowing in battle. The only one that actually had a POV and/or different experience is Lopen. This could either mean he's attracted a new spren or it's just Brandon's way of showing us the squire transformation in action.

 

While it's not stated exactly what a squrie is, this theory does seem highly plausible. 

 

edit: Dam just refer to Moogle above lol

Edited March 24, 2014 by Numb

[Argent]

I think Windrunners passive ability may be in their ability to form squads/Squires. We haven't read about any other order having these pseudo-radiants.

I asked a related question during the Chicago signing and Brandon said that some Orders have squires, some don't, and even among those who do, the number varies (he said that the Windrunners have "an abnormal" number of squires, whose strength/abilities might be abnormal too). He told me to keep an eye on them.

[Levian]

Awesome, thanks for the info guys. I totally missed the part in WoR talking about the squires. I spent a LOT of nights reading until 4-5 am...