Love Triangle Parallel

[Elena]

Well, to be fair, she does treat him somewhat dismissively during Kaladin's flashback, and I suspect this is what people have in mind when thinking bad thoughts about Laral

 

 

Alright, I agree and now I feel bad! I mean Laral is a victim of Roshone's crappiness too. You're right. The only thing I feel was truly her fault was when Kaladin was asked to get Wyler (Is that his name? I cannot remember for the life of me.) and her food. She could have been quiet or indifferent but is straight up cruel to him. "Go ahead boy. Know your place." or something like that. Oooh, it just burns me up.

This reads to me as a classical example of kids doing what they are expected to. Roshone hated Kaladin's father - her treating him badly would only be encouraged. I agree that it wasn't the nicest thing, but kids do always try their best to fulfill their group's expectations, as sad as it is. 

 

 

 

It's also worth noting that Laral seems to want to marry Kaladin, too, pre-Roshone - the entire passage is really too long to quote, but she implies pretty strongly that she wants him to become a soldier to win a Shardblade, thus becoming lighteyes and acceptable for them to get married.

Yeah, that was blatant. I also really loved Kaladin's reaction at her obvious interest, something like 'Laral had been acting stange lately' and that priceless scene where she wants him to help her climb because 'it's polite' even though she can perfectly manage it on her own. My cousin and his first girlfriend are about that age, and hilarious to watch, so I really loved that bit.

 

 

 

I really do think that Kal's mom was part of a light eyed family some how.That she was just born dark eyed by some random happenstance or her parents were mixed light and dark. That her brothers and sisters were all light eyed but she and maybe one more got the dark eyed gene. Then married a dark eyed man for love instead of being "sold" to her husbands family for prestige and status.

EDIT: I expanded on this theory here. Hopefully, the post there is more organized.

This is actually my favorite Hesina theory. It is clear that she is more than she looks at first, and IMO the only reason why her parents would possibly have disliked her marriage to Kaladin's father - a skilled surgeon, and full citzien - is got to be that they considered themselves to have better social status. Lirin's second nahn - you don't go much higher than that. Plus, there's the fact that she wanted Kaladin to marry Laral to consider.

 

“An accomplished young surgeon of the right rank could draw the attention of a poorer noble family, one who wished money and acclaim. It happens in the larger cities.”

But they don't live in a large city and Laral is neither particularly poor (Roshone does marry her for her inheritance, in the end) neither that low ranked. In WoR, Kaladin refers to the citylord's family as 'middle-dahn'

Also, for what is worth:

Tvlakv spoke with an important-looking lighteyed woman. She [...] looked much as Laral had, at the end. She was probably of the fourth or fifth dahn, wife and scribe to one of the camp’s officers.

So, what I'm saying is that Laral's social status was theoretically much, much higher than Lirin's family - unless they had some other connection we weren't made aware of. That said, I do not believe that Hesina's parents (or one of them) were/are lighteyed - such a thing was bound to come up, especially by Roshone - but I think it's definitely possible one of her grandparents was.

It makes sense. Rich merchant marries poor brightlady, or maybe the other way around; some of their children are lighteyed, some aren't. One of the darkeyed kids marries yet another rich darkeye, a choice much more socially acceptable than a country surgeon; and their daughter is Hesina, whose marriage is frowned upon by her rich and/or lighteyed relations, but there isn't much they could do about it.

In a society with a cast system as rigid as Alethkar's, someone like Lirin wouldn't have married a brightlord's daughter/sister, no matter how poor or minor her family. But a grandaughter, on the other hand..

I'm pretty sure this could be the case.

Edited March 25, 2014 by _Elena

[ram433]

The main difference between the Adolin/Shallon/Kaladin triangle and the Gavilar/Dalinar/Navani triangle is the relationship between the two men. From the way people talk you get the sense that maybe Dalinar, the little brother, was in many ways the better man, but he deferred to his older brother with the exception of that one little temptation he had that thought about in WoK. But Kaladin doesn't defer to Adolin at all. He would be very aware of the social obstacles, but he would not give up something he wanted in order to please Adolin. I think Shallan will either choose Kaladin, or Adolin will think she is and that will be what sends the golden boy over the edge. I have a pet theory that Adolin is our Anakin Skywalker. Odium needs a champion and I think he is it. But further argument on that point is off topic. 

[snote]

 

This is actually my favorite Hesina theory. It is clear that she is more than she looks at first, and IMO the only reason why her parents would possibly have disliked her marriage to Kaladin's father - a skilled surgeon, and full citzien - is got to be that they considered themselves to have better social status. Lirin's second nahn - you don't go much higher than that. Plus, there's the fact that she wanted Kaladin to marry Laral to consider.

 

Quote

“An accomplished young surgeon of the right rank could draw the attention of a poorer noble family, one who wished money and acclaim. It happens in the larger cities.”

But they don't live in a large city and Laral is neither particularly poor (Roshone does marry her for her inheritance, in the end) neither that low ranked. In WoR, Kaladin refers to the citylord's family as 'middle-dahn'

Also, for what is worth:

Quote

Tvlakv spoke with an important-looking lighteyed woman. She [...] looked much as Laral had, at the end. She was probably of the fourth or fifth dahn, wife and scribe to one of the camp’s officers.

So, what I'm saying is that Laral's social status was theoretically much, much higher than Lirin's family - unless they had some other connection we weren't made aware of. That said, I do not believe that Hesina's parents (or one of them) were/are lighteyed - such a thing was bound to come up, especially by Roshone - but I think it's definitely possible one of her grandparents was.

It makes sense. Rich merchant marries poor brightlady, or maybe the other way around; some of their children are lighteyed, some aren't. One of the darkeyed kids marries yet another rich darkeye, a choice much more socially acceptable than a country surgeon; and their daughter is Hesina, whose marriage is frowned upon by her rich and/or lighteyed relations, but there isn't much they could do about it.

In a society with a cast system as rigid as Alethkar's, someone like Lirin wouldn't have married a brightlord's daughter/sister, no matter how poor or minor her family. But a grandaughter, on the other hand..

I'm pretty sure this could be the case.

 

Something else to consider in this theory is something Kaladin says when Laral runs down to talk to the sons of farmers in Hearthstone. Someone asks,"Kal, you know stuff. Is it true that a dark eyes can become a light eyes?" Kal responds in a peculiar way. The kids are talking about Shardblades and actually changing their eye color permanently. Instead Kal says, "Sure happens all the time. A light eyes family of low Dahn marries a dark eyes of high non and their children are born with light eyes."

I know he is a surgeon that has been taught all about genetics and how they can affect the patient. Hence why he knows what to ask Ronaron in regards to his seizures. That isn't just basic "cut here" information. That's indepth internal medicine. So, it isn't completely surprising that Kaladin would know what happens when two people of different eye shade conceive. Though, it could also be that his mother told him the exact story of how his father and her were betrothed. I have found that a lot of times in stories. Stuff isn't just mentioned for the sake of conversation. Brandon wanted us to know that is possible. That we have people change eye color both by marriage and shardic influence. It's a pretty good reason to think she may be from a light eyed family with a dark eye gene in it's pool. Whether it was Kal's grand parents or great grand parents, I couldn't say.

Also, about the kids being kids thing. I don't think she was that young when that happened. She was like 16 or so when the event with the food happened. That's not a grown up, but that isn't an age when you're doing anything your parents want. I know her father and I think her mother are both dead at this point. So, she may be doing like you say and just trying to appease her future parent-in-law's sensibilities. I just honestly think that she knowingly and purposefully blew up her relationship with Kaladin. It was a way to make herself stop feeling guilty and sad, by pushing him away. If he doesn't come around, she doesn't have to be reminded how much she cares. So, once she saw herself in a situation that was past her control. She dropped the hammer and put all her eggs in the basket with Wyler. The next time we see her after Wyler dies, she is visibly broken. She just had her life dissolve in front of her. She didn't like Wlyer as much as Kaladin but thought it would be a more comfortable life. The negatives were worth the risk. Though after the loss of a bearable man and Kaladin, she realized her life had just turned to ashes. Who knows how she was pushed and prodded. What hardship she had to endure before she was willing to make that choice. She could be in a similar situation to Shallan. Marriage to a wealthy house may have sheltered her friends and family from terrible situation. I just really do think she intentionally was mean to Kal. That's my only point and theory.

[rererak]

Wow, have to admit, when I started reading these posts about Laral I was thinking "nah, her story is over," but I have a feeling you guys are making a strong point. I still believe that Tarah, with her shroud of mystery, will make a better Shshshsh than Laral, but I could see it going both ways as well.

 

And the Hesina bit! Man, that actually makes a lot of sense! I mean, they even point out at one point (and pardon, I do not have my book with me right now) that if a darkeyed married a lighteyed then the children could be dark or light (and in the case of the Bastard, both!), so it is very possible Hesina has a parent or grandparent of lighteyes.

[Elena]

Also, about the kids being kids thing. I don't think she was that young when that happened. She was like 16 or so when the event with the food happened. That's not a grown up, but that isn't an age when you're doing anything your parents want. I know her father and I think her mother are both dead at this point. So, she may be doing like you say and just trying to appease her future parent-in-law's sensibilities. I just honestly think that she knowingly and purposefully blew up her relationship with Kaladin. That's my only point and theory.

It might be as you say but, believe me, social and peer pressure should never be underestimated. The very same thing happened to me, as much as it hurts admit it. I went to study abroad when I was sixteen, for a year, living with a complete strange family - whom I absolutely did not like. They were the exact type of people I despise, shallow and negletting and often intentionally mean, whose only purpose in hosting an exchange student had been to get a baby-sitter. That was against my exchange rules, and I complained, but my local supervisor wouldn't listen - she was friend with the lady, and she and all the members of the local section of the organization kept telling me that it was my fault, that I should be more open-minded and accepting of a different culture and different life style, and that in the end I was to blame because I spent too much time talking to my family and friends at home instead of trying to make friends with the people I was living with.

After I while, I actually started believing them - not because I rationally thought they were right; but because when you are sixteen, and living on your own, among people who all share the same mindset, it's really hard not to just go with the crowd, especially when you're alone. So I stopped talking to my friends at home and spent time with some of the frankly more repugnant people I've ever met, because I was encouraged to do so - so trust me when I say I found the way Brandon wrote Laral completely realistic (and this is also why I really emphatize with her). After what, three years?, spent hearing every day what a criminal Kaladin's father was, it's no wonder she felt like she had to be rude to him.

That said, I also agree with you that she consciously destroyed their relationship. Again from experience, I can guarantee that when you feel like you don't have much control on your life intentionally ruining it is something strangely appealing - as a way to affirm some measure of control. Like saying 'okay, my life sucks already so I'm going to ruin one more thing, at least this way I'll be doing it myself and I'll have one less thing that can be taken away from me'.

It's sad and twisted, but it happens.

Also, re: Hesina and her parentage. I felt like we were going off-topic, so I opened a new thread about it.

[Rybal]

I think the pragmatist and experience in Navani wouldn't want to see a girl, that is now part of her "clutch" as Adolin put it, about to marry someone who isn't right for her. Even if the other person is part of the same clutch. It just seems to me that Shallan and Kal fit better in their personalities.

 

Of course, there's also the fact that Shallan makes Adolin better. He learns to be himself around her, which would be a strength. At the end of the day, a Highprince (or the heir) needs someone that they trust and that they can confide in. Navani would certainly see this. You can't forget that she has her own vested interest in Adolin and would arguably put him above Shallan regardless of the relationship between Shallan and Navani.

 

Also, I will reiterate one of my prime arguments against the Shalladin theory - Syl and Pattern. Honorspren and Cryptics neither like nor trust one another and that has to be taken into account when considering the potential of such a relationship.

[Seloun]

Also, I will reiterate one of my prime arguments against the Shalladin theory - Syl and Pattern. Honorspren and Cryptics neither like nor trust one another and that has to be taken into account when considering the potential of such a relationship.

 

I'd actually consider this to be more of an indication it will happen than not (if everything aligns without conflict, there's no story). See Romeo and Juliet or any other story where the relationship is at odds with organizational conflict. This is actually exactly the sort of conflict you'd expect to see if you were expecting a Shallan/Kaladin relationship: the fundamental conflict is not intractable (Syl is willing to admit Cryptics are _probably_ not evil, just unpleasant) and overcoming it is an important plot point (clearly the Radiants are going to have to work together to save the day).

[snote]

I'd actually consider this to be more of an indication it will happen than not (if everything aligns without conflict, there's no story). See Romeo and Juliet or any other story where the relationship is at odds with organizational conflict. This is actually exactly the sort of conflict you'd expect to see if you were expecting a Shallan/Kaladin relationship: the fundamental conflict is not intractable (Syl is willing to admit Cryptics are _probably_ not evil, just unpleasant) and overcoming it is an important plot point (clearly the Radiants are going to have to work together to save the day).

I agree with you on this one. I think it is an interesting aspect of the story to explore. Which makes it even more appealing than just what you pointed out. In my mind, Syl hates lies with her nature. As I feel Cryptics are the same in reverse. They don't understand the "uptight" honorspren. They probably confuse them by their very principles. I know it says there is a hierarchy to the spren and we're only given a glimpse of the true nature of them thus far. So, it may turn out to be something more superficial or in depth. I just keep thinking of the bonded spren like the daemons from "His Dark Materials". Where any coitus would translate to the spren intertwining in a loving way. So, yeah, that's not gonna happen.

 

 

It might be as you say but, believe me, social and peer pressure should never be underestimated. The very same thing happened to me, as much as it hurts admit it. I went to study abroad when I was sixteen, for a year, living with a complete strange family - whom I absolutely did not like. They were the exact type of people I despise, shallow and negletting and often intentionally mean, whose only purpose in hosting an exchange student had been to get a baby-sitter. That was against my exchange rules, and I complained, but my local supervisor wouldn't listen - she was friend with the lady, and she and all the members of the local section of the organization kept telling me that it was my fault, that I should be more open-minded and accepting of a different culture and different life style, and that in the end I was to blame because I spent too much time talking to my family and friends at home instead of trying to make friends with the people I was living with.

After I while, I actually started believing them - not because I rationally thought they were right; but because when you are sixteen, and living on your own, among people who all share the same mindset, it's really hard not to just go with the crowd, especially when you're alone. So I stopped talking to my friends at home and spent time with some of the frankly more repugnant people I've ever met, because I was encouraged to do so - so trust me when I say I found the way Brandon wrote Laral completely realistic (and this is also why I really emphatize with her). After what, three years?, spent hearing every day what a criminal Kaladin's father was, it's no wonder she felt like she had to be rude to him.

That said, I also agree with you that she consciously destroyed their relationship. Again from experience, I can guarantee that when you feel like you don't have much control on your life intentionally ruining it is something strangely appealing - as a way to affirm some measure of control. Like saying 'okay, my life sucks already so I'm going to ruin one more thing, at least this way I'll be doing it myself and I'll have one less thing that can be taken away from me'.

It's sad and twisted, but it happens.

Also, re: Hesina and her parentage. I felt like we were going off-topic, so I opened a new thread about it.

The Hesina link was thoughtful. I agree I ramble often and easily.

You definitely opened my eyes to your way of thinking on this one. After reading your story, I found myself remember similar events in my own life, where you're surrounded by people who think something, you find horrendous, is acceptable. So, you go from complacent, to indifferent, and finally to agreeable.

I live in Kentucky. I was around racism my whole life. Being a random white kid, most of the friends I made came from racist families. I never felt at first like people were innately better or worse because of any reason, other than their character. I can confidently say that I feel like that now. Though, there were times in my grade school and middle school years that I don't know if that I can. I hate that I can't but you can't hide your mistakes and expect them to not be repeated. I can relate is what I'm getting at. I'm in my 30's now and I chalk it up to me being a stupid kid who just wanted to fit in. It in no way makes it right or acceptable. I never hurt anyone or said anything mean to anyone. I just was complacent in a behavior and form of speech I would feel disgusted hearing today. If that makes sense. I know this may be a little more intense than is appropriate for this discussion. I just felt like you sharing your experience deserved an honest reply.

[Elena]

You definitely opened my eyes to your way of thinking on this one. [...] I know this may be a little more intense than is appropriate for this discussion. I just felt like you sharing your experience deserved an honest reply.

Yeah, I'm still not quite over it and maybe I'm oversharing

I didn't want to point fingers but I completely uderstand - I'm a big city girl from Europe and went to Georgia which is not quite Kentucky, but close enough. I'm also an agnostic, occasionally date girls, and look mexican enough that people did act racist around me -- really not pretty. That said, we're going off-topic Thanks though

Edited March 25, 2014 by Elena