singers (OB) Transformers more than meets the eye

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

I would like to discuss the Singers . Compare notes and see if we are overlooking anything.

To begin with i’d Like to go over the difference between Singers and listeners . The Singers are the original race that became the Parsh when a Bondsmith imprisoned one of the Unmade which trapped them into Slaveform . The listeners were the last company of Singers that turned. Away from the “Old gods” and eventually became the parshendi. I thought that all the listeners were wiped out in the creation of the Everstorm except for Rlain, Venli and demmed. However on my last re-read Venli spoke of 2000 listeners that survived the Everstorm . It is worth noting that the Listeners are considered traitors by the Fused for turning away from them and actively preventing their return by assasinating Gavilar.

       The Singers and Listeners both have 4 sexes . Malen and Femalen, which are appear like male and female but are asexual and have no reproductive parts. As far as I can tell all forms of power and most forms that the pashendi know are Femaen and malen. The only forms that are male and female that are in use are mateform , dullform , and slaveform. This is how the parsh were able to reproduce. 

   The. Current hierarchy of the singers is as follows . The Singers are on the bottom . They have no forms of power.; Limited to mateform workform, nimbleform, slaveform, dullform , 

The next in power are the Regals which are Singers and Listeners who have taken a lesser voidspren into their gemhearts, they still possess their own minds . So far we have only seen Regals in Stormform and Envoyform. 

Lastly we have the Fused , who are Cognitive Shadows that all occupy Forms of Power. And exist by killing the spirit web of a Singer. They see the Singers as cattle and are the true Leaders of the Race.

A last note is the Singers who have been awakened by the everstorm. To fill the gaps in there spriteeb they have all been given the consciousness of whatever country they served as parsh. Parsh from Alethi , act Alethi , parsh from Thaylan act

 Thaylan .

 

now hear are the things we must figure out.

Can singers use stormlight ? Can they become squires , can they bond spren.

I strongly believe that singers cannot ! That is why Rlain says he has to adopt a form to be able to embrace stormlight . I think only Regals can use stormlight or bond a spren.

i have discussed this with Sages before and I strongly feel they are totally misreading what Rlain is saying .

Buf here is the more interesting question ? 

We have seen Venli bond a spren and thus be on  her way to becoming a KR ( specifically a Willshaper. Can the Fused bond Higher Voidspren like Ulim? If so can they eventually learn to create living shardblades ? Can they learn to developer shardplate . 

     Syl said the spren saw what honor did with the honorblade and they copied it. Can Ulim and the higher Voidspren learn to copy what Syl and wyndle do? This has never happened before but a lot of things are happening that has never happened before? 

And our last big question is what would happen if Dalinar and Venli and Kaladin and Rlain convince the Singers to abandon the Fused . Will this deny them bodies to posses or can the Fused force themselves into any Singer unfortunate enough to be caught in the Everstorm? 

I think the Singer has to open his body up to receive the Fused. What do the sages say? 

 

Are there any other forms that are male and female? Scholar form perhaps.?

[MountainKing]

All forms have reproductive parts mateform is just the best form to have it in. And Singers and Listeners can use stormlight and become squires.

[Calderis he/him]

The Singers are the race, the listeners are (were?) a nation.

5 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

A last note is the Singers who have been awakened by the everstorm. To fill the gaps in there spriteeb they have all been given the consciousness of whatever country they served as parsh. Parsh from Alethi , act Alethi , parsh from Thaylan act

 Thaylan .

I don't think this is correct. I simply think they were restored, and they act the way they do because it was the culture they have always been exposed to. They do what they know. 

5 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Can singers use stormlight ? Can they become squires , can they bond spren.

I strongly believe that singers cannot ! That is why Rlain says he has to adopt a form to be able to embrace stormlight . I think only Regals can use stormlight or bond a spren.

i have discussed this with Sages before and I strongly feel they are totally misreading what Rlain is saying .

As in your other thread, Rlain does not say that he needs a form to draw in Stormlight. It's directly said or implied. He says that the other members of Bridge Four don't understand the way that Singers change forms, and they subconsciously believe that he's better off as he is, and fear that Stormlight would push him towards becoming a monster. 

Voidforms, tied to Odium be a prerequisite of access to a magic system of Honor and Cultivation makes no sense. 

5 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

And our last big question is what would happen if Dalinar and Venli and Kaladin and Rlain convince the Singers to abandon the Fused . Will this deny them bodies to posses or can the Fused force themselves into any Singer unfortunate enough to be caught in the Everstorm? 

Odium loses. Without singers on his side to accept them, the Fused have no bodies and Odium has no agents other than the Unmade. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

4 hours ago, MountainKing said:

All forms have reproductive parts mateform is just the best form to have it in. And Singers and Listeners can use stormlight and become squires.

If all forms had reproductive parts then there would be no difference in Malen and males. Mateform is not the only form that is male. Their are others:dullform and Slaveform are the only ones I have found. The Parsh are evidence of this. Perhaps in Workform they could be male and female. But all Regals and Forms of Power are Malen and Femalen. Thus if a Femalen has breast they are extremly small and no vagina. A Malen has no penis and probably a bigger chest , more pronounced masculine features. In WoK we see a Malen in warform on the battlefield with no penis just carapace armor down in that area

 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

s in your other thread, Rlain does not say that he needs a form to draw in Stormlight. It's directly said or implied. He says that the other members of Bridge Four don't understand the way that Singers change forms, and they subconsciously believe that he's better off as he is, and fear that Stormlight would push him towards becoming a monster. 

Voidforms, tied to Odium be a prerequisite of access to a magic system of Honor and Cultivation makes no sense. 

I disagree here. When someone shows me in book a Singer that is not in a form of power using stormlight I will believe this. I will even accept a WoB. If I ever get a chance to ask Brandon for a WoB quote this would be it. This makes perfect sense to me. If Listeners could of used stormlight they wouldn’t need forms of power. By now they would of attracted a Spren. Are you telling me that Eshonai and Venli are the only Listeners worthy of a Nahel bond? Of course not , as we see in the books most of the Singers are nice ,honorable , people. All of them are broken. Some of them would of attracted spren by now. This has not happened for one simple reason. In order to be able to bond with a spren , or use stormlight they need to at least be in a form of power. As soon as Eshonai turned to Storm form she attracted Timbre. Timbre told Venli he chose her because he doesn’t trust humans, many of them killed other lightspren. She can’t be the only spren who thinks this way. Eshonai and Venli were the first to adopt a form of power in millennia . Thus they were first capable of using stormlight. Or a nahel bond.  I know I won’t convince you of this. But when it comes out later I’m right, just remember old SzethIsBadAsHell told u so.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

The problem with saying a Singer has to adopt a form of power in order to form a Nahel bond is that those forms are acquired by bonding a Voidspren. Venli seems to be a special case to me; she wasn't the one Timbre originally ventured out of CR for. And just because we didn't see Timbre before Eshonai switched to Stormform doesn't mean she wasn't there. It's possible that I'm wrong, but if SzethIsBadAsHell is correct then any Spren that seeks to bond with a Regal-form Singer must subdue and trap the Voidspren that give him/her form before the bond allows a user to draw Stormlight. Not sure that many spren will have the skill on one hand or the inclination on the other to take the extra step involved in bonding to a Singer.

There are forms that are asexual, but they haven't shown up in the narrative. We've never knowingly seen a malen/femalen on screen. Keep in mind that the Listener songs indicate that there are many forms, possibly hundreds of them. The Listeners only discovered 3, Warform, Nimbleform, and Workform (when they abandoned Odium's cause they were stripped down to Dullform and Mateform); none of those forms had the malen/femalen variant and so could reproduce. The other forms we've seen are forms of power, Stormform, Envoyform and Scholarform (looks like Nimbleform).

There's more going on with Singers from different lands having the same customs as their former masters than just a blithe "well that's just what they observed". The Everstorm returned their Identity which allowed them to express Connection (connection in the Realmatic sense). Thaylen Singers know how to sail even though Thaylen sailors rarely employed Parsh slaves on their vessels. Aziran Singers know how to read and write well enough to write petitions for overdue wages; before the Everstorm they couldn't read at all, could barely speak. The way they reflect the culture they came from indicates more than just a mimicry of learned behavior. They weren't really able to observe anything in their previous form. Otherwise Sai would not have needed to be taught how to play a card game he observed being played hundreds of times when his mind was still shackled.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

There are forms that are asexual, but they haven't shown up in the narrative. We've never knowingly seen a malen/femalen on screen.

The only confirmed male/female forms we've seen so far are Mateform and Slaveform (Parshmen). The thing is that though Brandon originally said that Malen/Femalen were ture neuters, he's back pedaled on that to them being asexual rather than incapable. 

Quote

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

source

 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Ok. Only 2 confirmed male/female. 0 confirmed malen/femalen. 

But now I'm confused. If most Listener forms are asexual instead of true neuters, then what need for different sexes to accommodate them? One can be asexual without being neuter; a large percentage of the fandom thinks Jasnah is asexual and there's no question of her femininity. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

21 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

There are forms that are asexual, but they haven't shown up in the narrative. We've never knowingly seen a malen/femalen on screen. Keep in mind that the Listener songs indicate that

We have seen them in the story . I listened to the books on audio so I caught references pretty easily : Demed and Venli are in malen and femalen form. And sometimes even refer to each other as such.

warform is a malen femalen form. They grow carapace and armor.  Nimbleform is also malen femalen. When Venli first changed to Envoyform she thought it’s was nimbleform because both we so similar . 

I do see the problem when I say they must. Be in a form a power to embrace stormlight or form a nahel bond. Perhaps there are forms of power like dullform that require a spren that’s not of the void. Anger spren was used to change into storm form , so perhaps glory spren or happy spren ?  

I think the singers have forgotten this form . And it can be a key in winning them over fro. Odium. 

Lastly all void spren are lesser spren a higher spren like Syl or Timbre should easily suppress them 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I think almost all the forms except for mateform and "slaveform" are asexual.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

4 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think almost all the forms except for mateform and "slaveform" are asexual.

And dullform too but those are the three I know

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Sounds to me like I need another reread is in order for me. I totally missed that. However I don't think it was ever indicated that Warform is malen/femalen but like I said, rereads are needed.

I do believe there are forms that Singers can access that aren't Odium-based. Singers and spren pre-date Odium's arrival in-system after all. Problem is, it would have been a simple matter for Odium to excise knowledge of those older forms from the Singer consciousness either magically or by using mundane methods. I think part of Venli's eventual story arc will be to rediscover those ancient forms and spread that knowledge to the Singers. That way there won't be a repeat of Melishi's abomination.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

39 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The only confirmed male/female forms we've seen so far are Mateform and Slaveform (Parshmen). The thing is that though Brandon originally said that Malen/Femalen were ture neuters, he's back pedaled on that to them being asexual rather than incapable. 

Quote

I really wish he would stop doing that .  He did the same thing with shardblade Ds being able to cut Aluminum . Anyways I started forming my theory when I read they were nueters which made a lot of sense. Saying they are asexual is ok as long as they are still nueters , having malen and femalen by asexual and not be nuetered Is insane . How could u tell the difference between malen and males! 

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I really wish he would stop doing that .  He did the same thing with shardblade Ds being able to cut Aluminum . Anyways I started forming my theory when I read they were nueters which made a lot of sense. Saying they are asexual is ok as long as they are still nueters , having malen and femalen by asexual and not be nuetered Is insane . How could u tell the difference between malen and males! 

The difference is defined by the Singers themselves. Malen aren't interested, males are, and same for femalen/female. They would all know that at a glance. It's a matter of function, not form. 

[MountainKing]

The Singers have forms of power that use the Surges and are not of Odium, but Radiant Honda are different. Normal singers bonds work starts in the Physical Realm then reaches the Spiritual Realm, where the spren changes the singers spiritweb ,and that causes the singers change forms. A Radiant bond heals the spiritweb. The spren takes their spiritweb and shoves it into the recipient's spiritweb, fusing the spirit webs together. This allows the Radiant to use stormlight, just like a spren. Radiant bonds don't change existing spiritwebs or has an existing spot to fuse with, they just fill in the cracks in the spiritweb. Regular bonds have a dedicated spot in singers spiritweb.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The difference is defined by the Singers themselves. Malen aren't interested, males are, and same for femalen/female. They would all know that at a glance. It's a matter of function, not form. 

The problem with that is that the only form that shows interest is the one specialized to show it, Mateform. All I'm saying is that if singers are simply asexual outside of Mateform instead of neuter, then other genders should not exist. An asexual male is just a male uninterested in sex. That does not make him a different sex altogether. Gender is a biological designation not a frame of mind. If he/she has the parts and they work then that singer is a male/female. Uninterested is a frame of mind; one can be forced to comply regardless of interest.

Brandon may want to backpedal on the asexual instead of neuter thing but he already established in the text that different genders exist. Hard to do without a ret con.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Bigmikey357

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

The good news is Eshonai is POV character of book 4 . I’m sure all our questions about malen , femalen , forms of power and whether or not they can embrace and form nahel bonds in any form will be answered .

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

The good news is Eshonai is POV character of book 4 . I’m sure all our questions about malen , femalen , forms of power and whether or not they can embrace and form nahel bonds in any form will be answered .

Eshonai's flashbacks won't answer anything about forms and Stormlight. They'll all take place before her death. Presumably showing us the initial interactions of the listeners and humans. 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

How about the other way around? Can a Parshendi bond a Knights Radiant spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Historically, the Parshendi were not made Knights Radiant, or the parshmen weren't.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Can they become squires maybe?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Historically they did not, but it's not impossible.

source

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Can Parshendi provide what the humans can provide, in terms of a mutualistic relationship with the spren?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

I found some relevant WoBs.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Eshonai's flashbacks won't answer anything about forms and Stormlight. They'll all take place before her death. Presumably showing us the initial interactions of the listeners and humans. 

Well Eshonai was in the process of bonding Timbre. So that will tell us if she could do that before she adopted Storm form or not . Also the flashback could be discussions about ancient times  or beliefs the Listeners had . 

[Calderis he/him]

16 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Well Eshonai was in the process of bonding Timbre. So that will tell us if she could do that before she adopted Storm form or not . Also the flashback could be discussions about ancient times  or beliefs the Listeners had . 

Possibly, though I think the bond with Timbre began around the time of the interludes we saw. 

Question, that is admittedly speculation. Have you considered the possibility that the reason we first see Timbre following Eshonai after Stormform isn't because Stormform allowed Timbre to be drawn, but that the bond had already begun, and Timbre had been hiding in Eshonai's gemheart, to weak yet to be heard, and to weak to suppress the Voidspren and was ejected during the transformation as a result? 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Possibly, though I think the bond with Timbre began around the time of the interludes we saw. 

Question, that is admittedly speculation. Have you considered the possibility that the reason we first see Timbre following Eshonai after Stormform isn't because Stormform allowed Timbre to be drawn, but that the bond had already begun, and Timbre had been hiding in Eshonai's gemheart, to weak yet to be heard, and to weak to suppress the Voidspren and was ejected during the transformation as a result? 

That would explain why Eshonai kept having to suppress the old rhythms despite being in Stormform.

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That would explain why Eshonai kept having to suppress the old rhythms despite being in Stormform.

And why when she attuned peace, and clutched at her chest from the screaming, she found Timbre in her hand. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

Yes but the point was that Eshonai flashbacks would give us those answers . If she encountered Timbre while In warform then we will know for a fact I’m wrong. But if she encountered her after Stormform then I could be right . Ulim spoke of Eshonai with Derision saying her transformation was not done correctly . I think Timbre was There and stopped the anger spren from taking control . But we will see . And it definantly will give us answers . I like Eshonai better than Venli anyways !