Toaster Retribution he/him Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 Jasnah is all game on killing Heralds, and now when she has two of them with her (Taln and Ash), and should know the locations of three others (Ishar, Nale and Battar). She might also know that Jezrien is dead, depending on how much Ash is willing to tell her. So, given that Jasnah knows the locations of more than half of the existing Heralds, will we see her attempt to search them out, and kill them? And what, exactly, will she do with Taln and Ash now that they are in her custody.
Leyrann Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) Well we do have this one so Taln at least is very unlikely to die. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/352-miscon-2018/#e10291 Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] When can we get a Herald of War perspective? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] You've gotten one really brief one. You really won't get them until starting around book six. So, you got a little bit left. Taln is a main character in the back five books, but he's only kinda just a tangential character in the first ones. I doubt much is going to come of that plan to be honest. Perhaps "Odium is trying to kill the heralds" is already enough for Jasnah to think "then maybe it's better to have them alive". Edited June 9, 2018 by Leyrann spoiler instead of quote
Calderis he/him Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 I highly doubt that Dalinar is going to be on board with the "kill all the Heralds" idea. I think Taln and Ash will be fine.
RShara she/her Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Calderis said: I highly doubt that Dalinar is going to be on board with the "kill all the Heralds" idea. I think Taln and Ash will be fine. The Stormfather is the one who told Dalinar that the Fused don't go back to Braise when they die, so yeah, Dalinar should know or realize that killing the Heralds would accomplish nothing. They'll be fine. 2
Naurock Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 I think she's going to quickly learn that killing the Heralds is not going to seal away the Fused. I agree with @Calderis
goody153 Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) I really really really REALLY hope so that Sanderson makes them play a pivotal role to keep them alive. And not just kill off Ash or something and turn Taln into another character living just to suffer like in (Mistborn Trilogy spoilers) Spoiler Marsh lol . I wanna see Herald level of redemption(for Ash) and reward(for Taln). Also the hinted centuries spanning romance might be the sweetest romance we would see in cosmere well aside from (Mistborn Trilogy spoilers) Spoiler Ruin and Preservation LOL I mean think about it Taln being a "duty first" kind of dude then Ash dissuading him and feeling all guilty because of her crime to him, i think they could be more interesting than Navani/Dalinar pair which is basically the same . I think they'll make an extremely interesting pair of character together and their road to becoming a Knight Radiant(assuming this path is going there) I just worry that it's not beyond Jasnah for murder or torture. OMG pls don't torture Taln he already went through enough Edited June 10, 2018 by goody153 2
Leyrann Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 10 hours ago, goody153 said: OMG pls don't torture Taln he already went through enough I doubt he'd even notice more torture after 4.5 millennia... 4
The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, Leyrann said: I doubt he'd even notice more torture after 4.5 millennia... Like pouring water into an already full glass.. 1
Stormfather-in-Law Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 15 hours ago, goody153 said: I just worry that it's not beyond Jasnah for murder or torture. Jasnah is powerful (in many ways), knowledgeable, and queen. She's also wise, in some ways, but arrogant about that wisdom - she believes she is rarely if ever wrong. Combine that with some of her hinted-at psychological issues, and I think it likely that she will end up going too far and becoming a tyrant. Consider the queen-of-the-warlike-kingdom equivalent to soulcasting petty thieves, and that's pretty much the picture I have in mind. Determination to do what's 'necessary' whatever the price can cause some fairly interesting side effects, the road to Braize being paved with good intentions and all. 1
Steeldancer he/him Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 If Jasnah kills Taln, she is dead to me. Ash? Whatever. I don’t like having rivals for Talns affection. 1
Szmit Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) They have their own books, and in the battle at the end of OB it is assumed they are the Dustbringer and Stoneward of Dalinar's 10 radiants, so they are probably save. Edited June 10, 2018 by Szmit
Angsos Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 I think Dalinar would be able to pull Jasnah back because he already came back from the psychopath tyrant warlord and know it leads nowhere, especially if you accidently kill the person you sort of care about.
goody153 Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 10 hours ago, Steeldancer said: If Jasnah kills Taln, she is dead to me. Ash? Whatever. I don’t like having rivals for Talns affection. Your biggest rival would be Roshar and it's people. (If Steeldancer was part of Cosmere) Inbefore Steeldancer picks up a shard with an intent capable of destruction and destroys Roshar to have zero rivals for Taln 10 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said: Jasnah is powerful (in many ways), knowledgeable, and queen. She's also wise, in some ways, but arrogant about that wisdom - she believes she is rarely if ever wrong. Combine that with some of her hinted-at psychological issues, and I think it likely that she will end up going too far and becoming a tyrant. Consider the queen-of-the-warlike-kingdom equivalent to soulcasting petty thieves, and that's pretty much the picture I have in mind. Determination to do what's 'necessary' whatever the price can cause some fairly interesting side effects, the road to Braize being paved with good intentions and all. Jasnah as we know is abit utilitarianistic and straightforward. She may have good intentions but she doesn't seem to mind doing what's unhonorable or improper for the greater good. And her first suggestions of murdering the Heralds to stop the desolation was already a sign. I think she is likely gonna milk information from Taln or Ash as much as tell Dalinar about the two heralds she has on her hands. I'm worry about this but inbefore Mr. T somehow manages to get his hands on the heralds.
stonedshaman Posted June 12, 2018 Posted June 12, 2018 IIRC taln and ash were last seen walking away. I don't think that they are currently with Jasnah. Also if by chance they are on Urithiru they would ultimately fall under the authority of Dalinar and not Jasnah
Leyrann Posted June 12, 2018 Posted June 12, 2018 20 minutes ago, stonedshaman said: IIRC taln and ash were last seen walking away. I don't think that they are currently with Jasnah. Also if by chance they are on Urithiru they would ultimately fall under the authority of Dalinar and not Jasnah They were last seen with Ash, at least, falling unconscious while Jasnah was looking at real pictures of them.
Stormwatcher Posted June 12, 2018 Posted June 12, 2018 When did Jesna state she's about to kill the Heralds? I think I missed that
Wandering Investor Posted June 12, 2018 Posted June 12, 2018 15 minutes ago, Stormwatcher said: When did Jesna state she's about to kill the Heralds? I think I missed that During the meeting in Part 2(I think?, maybe 3), shortly after Kaladin returned to the tower. During the meeting Jasnah proposed that the heralds should be found, and then killed, in order to force them back to the oathpact. This plan is likely off the table now for several reasons, notably that the heralds cannot be expected to stay willingly on Braize for long, it has been revealed that the fused return to the Everstorm on death instead of Braize like in the past so it wouldn't matter if the heralds went back anyways, and the heralds are a huge source of knowledge. I never thought it was a very Jasnah like idea in the first place, it seemed like it mostly served to create conflict between her and Kaladin, but that's beside the point. 1
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted June 12, 2018 Author Posted June 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said: I never thought it was a very Jasnah like idea in the first place, it seemed like it mostly served to create conflict between her and Kaladin, but that's beside the point. Isn’t it very much Jasnah though? When she proposed it, it seemed like the easiest way to solve the Odium problem. Logic is Jasnahs thing, so I am not at all surprised she suggested that. 1
Wandering Investor Posted June 12, 2018 Posted June 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: Isn’t it very much Jasnah though? When she proposed it, it seemed like the easiest way to solve the Odium problem. Logic is Jasnahs thing, so I am not at all surprised she suggested that. Because just before this meeting, Dalinar learned how the oathpact functioned, aka the heralds had to resist torture, and that the Heralds has lied about the Final Desolation and abandoned the oathpact. Relying on broken souls to withstand the torture needed to keep the voidbringers back is illogical. If they could be forced to hold the voidbringers back, then it would have been logical, but it is extremely likely the heralds would have just folded as soon as they arrived at Braize. And trying out this plan is a extremely low expected success rate would have alienated the heralds as allies. To add on to that meeting, Jasnah learned that not all the parshmen were assimilated. Instead of considering the option of converting them away from the voidbringers, thereby robbing the enemy of soldiers while increasing their own manpower, Jasnah immediately decided the only option was war. That's why I think the chapter was more about trying to create conflict between the orders, than about Jasnah being logical.
Mage of Lirigon he/him Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 17 hours ago, Wandering Investor said: Because just before this meeting, Dalinar learned how the oathpact functioned, aka the heralds had to resist torture, and that the Heralds has lied about the Final Desolation and abandoned the oathpact. Relying on broken souls to withstand the torture needed to keep the voidbringers back is illogical. If they could be forced to hold the voidbringers back, then it would have been logical, but it is extremely likely the heralds would have just folded as soon as they arrived at Braize. And trying out this plan is a extremely low expected success rate would have alienated the heralds as allies. The Heralds have already proven themselves to not be trustworthy, so I don't think Jasnah was worried about alienating them. You have a point about the Heralds not being able to withstand torture, but even a little time, like a few months or even days or hours, might be useful if done at the right time. Quote To add on to that meeting, Jasnah learned that not all the parshmen were assimilated. Instead of considering the option of converting them away from the voidbringers, thereby robbing the enemy of soldiers while increasing their own manpower, Jasnah immediately decided the only option was war. After what was done to them, converting them back would be a tough deal. I can see why she wouldn't think of that as being an option. especially with Odium fanning the flames. Quote That's why I think the chapter was more about trying to create conflict between the orders, than about Jasnah being logical. Rather than creating conflict, it seemed to me to be more about highlighting the differences in how Kaladin and Jasnah think.
Wandering Investor Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said: The Heralds have already proven themselves to not be trustworthy, so I don't think Jasnah was worried about alienating them. You have a point about the Heralds not being able to withstand torture, but even a little time, like a few months or even days or hours, might be useful if done at the right time. That's a large "might be useful". The Heralds were largely an unknown. That's why I view it as odd that Jasnah would pick killing them for a unknown chance at holding some fused back, without any consideration for the unknown chance of gaining knowledge from the Heralds. Again, some of the fused were already in the Everstorm, so the heralds couldn't have trapped them. So you have to compare the value of trapping an unknown percentage of the fused on Braize, for likely a limited amount of time before the Herald(s) broke, vs the knowledge and expertise that could have been gained from recruiting them. Both options have value, but she didn't seem to give much consideration for the second option. 1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said: After what was done to them, converting them back would be a tough deal. I can see why she wouldn't think of that as being an option. especially with Odium fanning the flames. It would have been tough, but tough isn't a complete deterrent to Jasnah. Not to mention the other option is fighting them, which is also tough. 1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said: Rather than creating conflict, it seemed to me to be more about highlighting the differences in how Kaladin and Jasnah think. I'm not denying that Kaladin and Jasnah think very differently. I'm also not denying that if Jasnah decided one option was the optimal one, she would carry it out, even if it required brutality, and would likely experience opposition from Kaladin. I just didn't agree that these choices were the most logical/optimal ones. Like trying to show off Jasnah's brutal logic, but only picking logic that leads to brutality.
+Trellium he/him Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 Jasnah was completely in character as far as I'm concerned. She was attempting to logically address the problem, regardless of any sentiment. She also seems to accept Dalinar's logically valid rebuttal about the unknown Mechanics and the likelihood of them just instantly breaking. She just doesnt accept Kaladin's feelings as a meaningful contribution to the group's strategic analyses. If it weren't for the fact that the Everstorm was in play and needs to be dealt with before the Fused can be resealed on Braize, she would probably eventually come to the conclusion that studying the heralds would let her manipulate at least one into staying put on Briaze. Ash, now that her father is dead and Taln is free, would be a good candidate. Promise to take care of Taln if she stays on Braize, and continue his torture here on Earth if she doesn't. Dark, isn't it.
Leyrann Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said: That's a large "might be useful". The Heralds were largely an unknown. That's why I view it as odd that Jasnah would pick killing them for a unknown chance at holding some fused back, without any consideration for the unknown chance of gaining knowledge from the Heralds. Again, some of the fused were already in the Everstorm, so the heralds couldn't have trapped them. So you have to compare the value of trapping an unknown percentage of the fused on Braize, for likely a limited amount of time before the Herald(s) broke, vs the knowledge and expertise that could have been gained from recruiting them. Both options have value, but she didn't seem to give much consideration for the second option. 3 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said: Uhm, was Jasnah operating with the full knowledge that we have though? At least the scene didn't stand out for me...
Wandering Investor Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 54 minutes ago, Leyrann said: Uhm, was Jasnah operating with the full knowledge that we have though? This meeting occurred soon after the vision in which the Stormfather explained how the Heralds were broken and had willingly abandoned the oathpact, as well as explaining that the souls of the fused were sent back to the Everstorm after death instead of Braize. Unless Dalinar did not share this information, she had to know that the Heralds would not willingly go back, wouldn't last long even if they did, and would only affect the souls still on Braize, leaving them to deal with the endless fuse already on Roshar.
+Trellium he/him Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 Jasnah had clearly already at least read Navanis records of Dalinar's latest info: Quote “The Stormfather laid it out,” Jasnah said, unperturbed. “The Heralds made a pact. When they died, their souls traveled to Damnation and trapped the spirits of the Voidbringers, preventing them from returning.” Dalinar shares some of the obvious objections right after Jasnah proposed the murder spree. Quote Jasnah,” Dalinar said. “Even if the pact of the Heralds still holds, we can’t know that they’d stay in Damnation—or the mechanics for locking away the Voidbringers there. So she knew they broke from torture, but does not immediately blindly accept that this precludes even 1 of the ten from being convinced to try to buy humanity more time. Quote “The Stormfather said their pact was weakened, but did not say it was destroyed,” Jasnah said. “I suggest that we at least see if one of them is willing to return to Damnation. Perhaps they can still prevent the spirits of the enemy from being reborn.
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