[OB] Harmony vs Discord: Who truly IS the hero of ages ?

[goody153]

I'm gonna say from the very beginning is that my take on this is more on that the HoA being a Discord rather than Harmony.

Sorry if the title might not fit the post. Can't think of other title atm. Also not sure how the spoiler policy of OB on Cosmere Theory forum works so better be sure than sorry.

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He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name will be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. 

Should've been a simply prophecy text that is relevant only to Mistborn Trilogy context that i'm not so sure anymore since it could mean extremely interesting narrative direction for the future of Mistborn franchise and Cosmere in general. Also the very obvious capitalization of the word and the hero of ages prophecy being weirdly word by word accurate(like the "on his arms" or the gender neuter thing) and i don't think Ruin changed the text that much. 

This kind of theorycrafting also inspired me more after reading Oathbringer where if i assume Rayse wasn't lying would mean that he's actually truly the Shard of Passion but people chose to call him Odium. And i don't think Rayse is lying considering that when he let him experience his infinity like other shards have before(Sazed to Wax during era2) and i don't think shards will lie about their intent to the utmost extent(considering that's what they're endorsing/implementing in the first place) as you would assume especially regarding themselves which Dalinar experienced emotions of all ranges. Even supporting that he might actually be a shard of passion or at least a synonym as his general policy for his army/people has been about passion and his minions claiming interest with Moash due to his "strong passion".

So far apart from the manipulations of Ruin of the prophecy of the Hero of Ages. It hasn't lied to us and for some reason i doubt this was either shards doing.

Another is that from Era2 Sazed has been stating being tied between the conflict of two shards and still insisting on balancing them. Could it be that him trying to please both masters is what causing his inactivity in the first place and the less he is about balancing the better he is at freedom from both shards. Also kinda makes sense with him being a young vessel which might've occured to other shards who fought their nature at the start.

That Oathbringer event may imply that our Hero of Ages might not actually be the intent he says or could eventually change into what it was meant to be.

Which brings me to these thoughts about Sazed's actual intent as the wielder of Preservation and Ruin (could've already been theorized by others as well and some i read from other post about discord/harmony) which might be more plausible/possible/would you support ?

1. Harmony is Harmony and i'm wearing too much tinfoil hat i should stop.
2. Sazed ascended as Harmony but is slowly being molded/evolved into Discord.
3. Sazed thinks he's Harmony but he's actually Discord from the very beginning
4. Sazed does not actually care if he's Discord but chose to name himself Harmony maybe for some reason
5. The prophecy is averted abit which is why we have Harmony instead of Discord(not all future sight happening accurately ?) 

Could it be that his name, intent and being finally becoming Discord is just a matter of acceptance just like his role as the Hero of Ages, or about his acceptance of change/death is a natural thing to connect with Ruin. Could it be ?

Questions

• Does it mean that the reason why Sazed is actually more limited than he should be has more to do with him trying insist he's Harmony(the balance between shards) rather than him being actually discord (the differences between the shards) ? 
• If Sazed remains Harmony till the endgame cosmere does that mean he becomes more active or actually just gets worse and becoming more and more inactive ? What about him becoming discord ? 
• Did we actually misunderstand Harmony and overtime he actually gains more freedom rather than being tied ? That Harmony could actually just do just about anything just like how incredibly flexible autonomy and endowment seems to be ?
• If assuming him becoming Discord is actually right and gives him freedom. Doesn't that make him incredibly dangerous and finally a big player of cosmere ? Since he's more interactive i assume  

Thoughts ? Supporting statements? Disagreements ? Theories ? Further Elaborations ? Anything resembling to thoughts about the matter ? Anything is welcome !(so excited about this topic after OB events sinking in and plenty of reading former discussion threads about this here or on reddit)

[Calderis he/him]

(if you are the same person I had this discussion with earlier today on discord, I apologize) 

I think it more likely that, Discord being the opposite of Harmony, it's what the hero would have been had they lacked the zenlike outlook about the natures of the Shards that Sazed has. If he didn't see them as two opposite but complimentary forces, they would have continually warred within him, thus Discord.

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chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

source

Although, as was proposed to me in that earlier conversation I mentioned this could potentially devolve. 

If that is the case, as has been brought up before, I think it likely that Sazed may eventually hand off his Shards (whether it's one or both together), because of this WoB (which is admittedly rampant speculation). 

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Questioner

*asks for a "future quote of Harmony"*

Brandon Sanderson

This is clever, I've never had this before.

Questioner

I wondered whether I could challenge you to do it...

Brandon Sanderson

*writes* "It is yours."

I don't know if that will actually be the quote, but you can come ask me after Mistborn 9?

source

 

[Leyrann]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

(if you are the same person I had this discussion with earlier today on discord, I apologize) 

I think it more likely that, Discord being the opposite of Harmony, it's what the hero would have been had they lacked the zenlike outlook about the natures of the Shards that Sazed has. If he didn't see them as two opposite but complimentary forces, they would have continually warred within him, thus Discord.

Although, as was proposed to me in that earlier conversation I mentioned this could potentially devolve. 

If that is the case, as has been brought up before, I think it likely that Sazed may eventually hand off his Shards (whether it's one or both together), because of this WoB (which is admittedly rampant speculation). 

That second WoB is from SoS release party... Would he mean MB Era 3 with "ask me after Mistborn 9"? Or MB Era 4?

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

That second WoB is from SoS release party... Would he mean MB Era 3 with "ask me after Mistborn 9"? Or MB Era 4?

Considering it's SoS, and BoM was only a month later and he'd have known then that TLM was going to follow, I'd have to assume Era 3

[Leyrann]

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering it's SoS, and BoM was only a month later and he'd have known then that TLM was going to follow, I'd have to assume Era 3

Crazy theory time?

Kelsier is gonna take up Harmony and become Discord, which may or may not be a bad thing. Sazed either dies or becomes human again.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Leyrann

[Yvainnie she/her]

Kelsier would certainly had better chance against Odium.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Yvainnie

[Leyrann]

13 minutes ago, Yvainnie said:

Kelsier would certainly had better chance against Odium.

We do know by WoB he'd probably love to punch Odium in the face...

[Yvainnie she/her]

Just now, Leyrann said:

We do know by WoB he'd probably love to punch Odium in the face...

Sounds very much like him. Misborn SH spoiler:

Spoiler

LMAO

 

[RShara she/her]

40 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

We do know by WoB he'd probably love to punch Odium in the face...

Actually, the WoB is that he'd like to punch Honor in the face.

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AllomancerSam [PENDING REVIEW]

If given the opportunity, which Shard would Kelsier want to punch next?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would find it really fun to punch Honor. Really fun.

source

 

On 5/29/2018 at 7:38 AM, goody153 said:

if i assume Rayse wasn't lying would mean that he's actually truly the Shard of Passion but people chose to call him Odium. And i don't think Rayse is lying considering that when he let him experience his infinity like other shards have before

I disagree with this for a number of reasons, but this latest WoB makes it pretty likely that Odium is lying to himself as well as everyone else.

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. And various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

 

[Wandering Investor]

I'd actually argue a third option, which is that the intent is based entirely around how the vessel views the intents of the shards that makes up Harmony. That is, Ruin and Preservation have Intents, but Harmony does not. The "shadow" Intent of Harmony, or any other multishard vesssel, is based on how the vessel views the underlying intents together. Sazed follows the idea of some of both have to occur, leading to Harmony. Others might think both must occur always, leading to a paradoxical breakdown and Discord. But either way, there is no true Intent for the multishard, just a single vessel trying to follow the Intents of several shards at once.

 

[Leyrann]

30 minutes ago, RShara said:

I disagree with this for a number of reasons, but this latest WoB makes it pretty likely that Odium is lying to himself as well as everyone else.

Not to derail this into an Odium vs Passion debate (though I do intend to make a post about that sometime...) but there's also this one:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/352-miscon-2018/#e10282

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Jess [PENDING REVIEW]

The Cognitive aspect of an object is the way that the object itself and others view it. Say the Vessel of a Shard started to view their power in a somewhat different way than when they first got that power, and the people on the planet also start to view it that way. Would the intent/mandate of that Shard be altered by that changes?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Within some limitations, yes. Certain Shards--certain Vessels believe it can go further than others believe it can go. But there is at least some wiggle room there.

Also, I disagree with the notion that all Odium does is spread hate. I just think that if you take any emotion to it's extreme it becomes detrimental and, because it's what he does to humans, it's as if he hates because he destroys them.

[+Brassweaver he/him]

I tend to agree with those on here that what makes Sazed Harmony is his own unique outlook! 

[goody153]

I believe the "It is yours" WoB could actually mean literally anything. It doesn't have to mean him handing Harmony's shards besides that kind of move completely undermines the entire point of the Mistborn Trilogy which was to have the two shards end up with the person who is destined for it's proper use which was Sazed.

And the meaning of Hero of Ages after all wasn't just Sazed being a one time savior but a "hero for all ages" a caretaker if you will.  It would be an ill advised retcon move if Sazed actually hands the Shard to somebody. 

Also interesting WoB about Odium believing he is passion but every characterizes him as Odium. That kinda weirdly supports the Sazed being Discord but insisting himself as Harmony though it could be also wrong since Sazed doesn't seem the type to lie about those kind of things or he could be on self-denial(that i could  see on anybody). 

Maybe he's not really Discord or Harmony but still Preservation and Ruin in Intent(not the shard itself of course it's already intermingled just the intent) just he just believed he's Harmony since he saw that what Ruin represents was natural things before his ascension and well ofcourse he's inline with preservation so he saw the need for both and since both are opposite he's trying to balance it hence he perceives it as Harmony since both are natural to his eyes.

Or i could be overthinking all this damnation.

On 5/31/2018 at 0:50 AM, Wandering Investor said:

I'd actually argue a third option, which is that the intent is based entirely around how the vessel views the intents of the shards that makes up Harmony. That is, Ruin and Preservation have Intents, but Harmony does not. The "shadow" Intent of Harmony, or any other multishard vesssel, is based on how the vessel views the underlying intents together. Sazed follows the idea of some of both have to occur, leading to Harmony. Others might think both must occur always, leading to a paradoxical breakdown and Discord. But either way, there is no true Intent for the multishard, just a single vessel trying to follow the Intents of several shards at once.

 

I like this theory. That multshard intents actually depend on the vessel's interpretation of what the two are together.

This also makes me feel like Endowment will probably fit with any shard . Except maybe Autonomy ?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Additionally, the WoB is a quote from Harmony. Not Sazed specifically. He could be dead by then for all we know(probably wont, but the option is open)