[Secret History] [OB] Why are Elantrians old in the CR?

[Llarimar he/him]

This may have been asked before.  It's something I've wondered for awhile.  We have seen Elantrians (or at least, Selish people, but I think they're Elantrians) twice in the Cognitive Realm - first in Mistborn: Secret History when Kelsier sees them trying to Ascend and take up the Shard of Preservation, I believe, and again in Oathbringer, when Kaladin encounters a Selish man in a lighthouse.  In both instances, the Elantrians are described as being very old.  Why is this?  My guess is that their powers as Elantrians grant them long life, and so even though they may appear young in the Physical Realm, their cognitive perception of themselves is that they are very old.  Is this correct, or is there some other reason we know of why Elantrians appear old in the CR?    

Edited May 27, 2018 by Llarimar

[Calderis he/him]

We also have to take into account that both of the instances I  which we've seen an Elantrian in the Cognitive, they were not on Sel, and thus separated from the Dor. 

It's entirely possible that although they still live, without the Dor fueling them they have withered in some way. 

[Oversleep]

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

[Something about whether Elantrians are immortal or long-lived] 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Elantrians have no physical limitations on their lifespan. The power will sustain them, but it's emotionally and mentally exhausting to be an Elantrian, so as far as immortality goes it's actually harder to be an Elantrian than other forms of immortality that exist in the cosmere.

source

My guess is that CR has nothing to do with it and Ire would look old in Physical Realm, too. I think they actually go through some form of aging but Dor sustaining them makes them immortal.
Alternatively, it could be that emotional and mental exhaustion is responsible for them appearing and kinda being old (as we well know, people who live high stress life can actually appear older than they are due to the strain on their bodies).

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Llarimar said:

My guess is that their powers as Elantrians grant them long life, and so even though they may appear young in the Physical Realm, their cognitive perception of themselves is that they are very old.  Is this correct, or is there some other reason we know of why Elantrians appear old in the CR?    

You make a valid supposition about their cognitive perception of themselves, something I'd never considered.

There's also this WoB, which could have something to do with this.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Elantrians have no physical limitations on their lifespan. The power will sustain them, but it's emotionally and mentally exhausting to be an Elantrian, so as far as immortality goes it's actually harder to be an Elantrian than other forms of immortality that exist in the cosmere.

Edit: Ninja'd by Oversleep b/c I didn't get the "somebody has just posted in this thread" pop-up

Edited May 28, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[Llarimar he/him]

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We also have to take into account that both of the instances I  which we've seen an Elantrian in the Cognitive, they were not on Sel, and thus separated from the Dor. 

It's entirely possible that although they still live, without the Dor fueling them they have withered in some way. 

This idea makes the most sense to me.  I remember when I read Secret History, one of the first things I thought was, "Why are they all so old?" and then when the Elantrian in OB was also described as old, I thought that there had to be something more to it - it couldn't be a coincidence.    

3 hours ago, Oversleep said:

My guess is that CR has nothing to do with it and Ire would look old in Physical Realm, too.

I think I agree, even though I suggested otherwise in my original post, because all of the characters that we've seen enter the CR don't appear any different (Kaladin and company in Elantris, Khriss, Nazh and Hoid in Secret History, etc.).  None of them appear as a more honest depiction of how they cognitively view themselves.  A person in the Physical will look the same if they travel to the Cognitive, because they are still a Physical being, just visiting another Realm. 

I think, looking at the WoB posted by @Oversleep and @The One Who Connects, in combination with what Calderis said, that the most likely explanation is that being an Elantrian is very emotionally and mentally exhausting, but that they Elantrians sustained and kept immortal by proximity to Sel.  When they wander away from Sel, however, the magic which sustains them weakens and they appear more withered and aged due to the mental and emotional strain placed upon them.

My question would then by why Galladon does not appear old when we see him in WoK.  My guess is that he has not been an Elantrian very long - who knows how long the people in Secret History and the lighthouse keeper in OB have been Elantrians, with the mental and emotional strain of their power weighing down upon them all that time.  Because Elantrians are basically immortal (even though they can die if their exhaustion becomes too great, as evidenced by Galladon's father), there are probably much more old Elantrians than young ones, so therefore odds are if you encounter an Elantrian away from Sel, they're going to look old.  

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

My question would then by why Galladon does not appear old when we see him in WoK.  My guess is that he has not been an Elantrian very long -

If we assume that the physical/mental strain is from the intense power of the Dor constantly coursing through them(Raoden's pains during Elantris support this, imo), then his relatively youthful appearance could actually indicate how long he spent on Sel(and in contact with the Dor), rather than how long he's been an Elantrian.

Following that train of thought, that'd mean that the Seventeenth got to him relatively soon after the events of the Elantris trilogy. Makes me even more curious what Sel will be like at the end of the trilogy.

[Calderis he/him]

@Llarimar there's also the distinct possibility that, as a member of the Seventeenth Shard, Galladon has access to some hack that is supplying him with investiture.

 

[Llarimar he/him]

13 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

If we assume that the physical/mental strain is from the intense power of the Dor constantly coursing through them(Raoden's pains during Elantris support this, imo), then his relatively youthful appearance could actually indicate how long he spent on Sel(and in contact with the Dor), rather than how long he's been an Elantrian.

Right, this makes sense.  If you get away from Sel soon after becoming an Elantrian, you're likely not to look very old because the Dor hasn't been straining your mind and body for very long.  I have heard of a 

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Llarimar there's also the distinct possibility that, as a member of the Seventeenth Shard, Galladon has access to some hack that is supplying him with investiture.

Just a thought, could this access to Investiture possibly allow him to continue using his powers as an Elantrian off of Sel?  All Investiture is just Investiture, even if it manifests in different ways, so the Investiture that is used by Elantrians, trapped in the Cognitive Realm on Sel, shouldn't be any different from Investiture anywhere else, right?  The powers of an Elantrian would probably be different off of Sel, but is it possible that they would still be able to use some sort of power if they were able to access Investiture?    

15 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Following that train of thought, that'd mean that the Seventeenth got to him relatively soon after the events of the Elantris trilogy. Makes me even more curious what Sel will be like at the end of the trilogy.

Is there a trilogy?  I know that there are more books planned for Sel which are set to take place about 10 years after Elantris, but I didn't know a trilogy was planned.

Also, on a side note, not sure if it adds very much (because we already know they're very old), but here is a WoB I found that talks about the age of the Elantrians in Secret History.

Quote

Questioner

In Mistborn: Secret History... The Ire--are they Elantrians?

Brandon Sanderson

They are.

Questioner

They are.

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm.

Questioner

And how-- what is their history with Ruin and the other [Vessels]?

Brandon Sanderson

So, these are some very old people, who are cosmere-aware.

Questioner

Are they... that wasn't mine... Do they predate the Elantrian story?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't answered that, and people have asked it. So I'll RAFO that.

Questioner

Oh, great.

Brandon Sanderson

But let's just say they're very old, and the Shardpool in Elantris, if you go back and read about the lore surrounding it in the book Elantris, you will see that they were aware of what was happening with it before the fall of Elantris.

Questioner

Did they-- were they affected by the cataclysm?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a RAFO!

source

Also, interesting to note, Brandon pronounces Elantris as "ee-LAWN-triss," whereas myself and everyone I know says "ee-LANN-triss."  So that's interesting.  

[Calderis he/him]

17 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

The powers of an Elantrian would probably be different off of Sel, but is it possible that they would still be able to use some sort of power if they were able to access Investiture? 

While I'm not going to say it's impossible, I doubt it. 

Even on Sel, where the Dor still sustains them, Aons fail the further you get from Arelon, to the point that Aons do not work at all in Maipon, and vice versa, hence no stamped items of any variety in elantris proper. 

Off of Sel, even with access to investiture, their magic is tied to geography. They would need a way to translate their Aons to a local variety, as the moon Scepter is supposed to do on Sel, and the nature of magic elsewhere in the Cosmere makes me think that there won't be a "local" language to be translated to. So unfortunately, I think the only advantage there is their normal longevity and vibrance. 

That's not to say he couldn't have access to something else. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

23 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

Is there a trilogy?  I know that there are more books planned for Sel which are set to take place about 10 years after Elantris, but I didn't know a trilogy was planned.

State of the Sanderson 2015. (It's things like this that make me realize just how much content Brandon puts out) 

Quote

January 2016: Wax and Wayne 3
February 2016: Reckoners 3 (final book)
June 2016: Alcatraz 5
Sometime 2017: Stormlight 3
Sometime 2017: Rithmatist 2
Spring 2018: New YA project 1
Fall 2018: Wax and Wayne 4 (final book)
Sometime 2019: Stormlight 4
Sometime 2019: New YA project 2
Sometime 2020: Elantris 2
Sometime 2020 New YA project 3 (final book)
Sometime 2021: Stormlight 5 (ending of first arc)
Sometime 2022: Elantris 3 (final book)

His roadmap from SotS 2017 is pretty empty compared to this one, but I don't think they've been pushed back too far in the wake of Apocalypse Guard/Skyward, since this WoB exists.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson
Elantris sequels
The Emperor’s Soul is now two years old, so it is probably time to get back to Sel and do some more there. We should be releasing a trade paperback of Elantris in the next year or two, with revised (and new) maps and a better Ars Arcanum. (Read: an Ars Arcanum.)

The full sequels will need to be finished before I can do the contemporary (1980s tech) Mistborn novels because of behind-the-scenes Cosmere bits, so I will do my best to find a place to squeeze these in. At the very least, I will write them following the end of Stormlight 5. So, these are distant, but not too distant.

Sel will Return.

Edited May 28, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[ThurgreatMarshall]

The post-Shaod Elantrians have been around for several hundred years by the time of Mistborn 1, and several hundred additional years by the first half of the Stormlight Trilogy. Even if the Silverlight inhabitants came to the cognitive realm before the Reod, they've been around for long enough to be considered ancient.

[Leyrann]

On 28-5-2018 at 6:12 AM, Llarimar said:

Also, on a side note, not sure if it adds very much (because we already know they're very old), but here is a WoB I found that talks about the age of the Elantrians in Secret History.

Quote

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner

In Mistborn: Secret History... The Ire--are they Elantrians?

Brandon Sanderson

They are.

Questioner

They are.

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm.

Questioner

And how-- what is their history with Ruin and the other [Vessels]?

Brandon Sanderson

So, these are some very old people, who are cosmere-aware.

Questioner

Are they... that wasn't mine... Do they predate the Elantrian story?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't answered that, and people have asked it. So I'll RAFO that.

Questioner

Oh, great.

Brandon Sanderson

But let's just say they're very old, and the Shardpool in Elantris, if you go back and read about the lore surrounding it in the book Elantris, you will see that they were aware of what was happening with it before the fall of Elantris.

Questioner

Did they-- were they affected by the cataclysm?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a RAFO!

source

 

 

To me that seems to imply that they were aged somehow by the Reod.

[Solarserpent]

With Brandon saying that immortality is draining on Elantrians more than other immortals makes more sense now. I wondered why the pool in Elantris existed at all. My first thought was that it had a different use than what they used it for in the book but this comment makes it more likely that the pool  is a tool for euthanasia. I guess eternal devotion is draining. 

 

[Weltall]

3 hours ago, Solarserpent said:

With Brandon saying that immortality is draining on Elantrians more than other immortals makes more sense now. I wondered why the pool in Elantris existed at all. My first thought was that it had a different use than what they used it for in the book but this comment makes it more likely that the pool  is a tool for euthanasia. I guess eternal devotion is draining.

Elantrians can die without the pool, as in the case of Galladon's father.

And that pool does have a different use, it's a Perpendicularity just like the Well of Ascension, which means that it's a place where it's very easy to transition between Realms. With the pool near Elantris (strongly assumed to be Devotion's Perpendicularity) what really happens when you enter it is that you pop out in the Cognitive Realm... and then unless you're prepared or extremely lucky you get annihilated by the Dor.

Out of universe, the Perpendicularities started because Brandon wanted to get Raoden into an elevated position at the end of the story, to have his eureka moment. He then went back and figured out how to tie that into the Cosmere's wider workings when he got published and needed to begin finalizing all the details.