Philomath Posted May 17, 2018 Report Share Posted May 17, 2018 Okay so just a few questions about these two and their visit to the Nightwatcher. In world the assumption is you ask the Nightwatcher for a boon and you get that for the price of receiving a curse as well. Now we know that Dalinar's visit was slightly abnormal given that Cultivation intervened and pruned his memories. And it ended up not really being a boon/curse situation. But Dalinar didn't remember that. So what did he think he asked for? It seems he assumed his curse was losing his memories. But never mentioned what he thought he gained. Now my question on Lift is do we know when she went to the Nightwatcher? I think it is implied that she asked to not change and that effected how she aged right? Or did I totally misunderstand that. For some reason I have it in my head that she doesn't age normally. And also has the food to investiture thing going on. And I think people have speculated that Cultivation intervened with Lift too. But we also know that Cultivation told Dalinar she hadn't stepped in for a long time. So is it possible the Lift is actually really old? But stayed really young for a long time? And now started aging because Cultivation was ready for her to just like she planned for Dalinar's memories to return. (I apologize if I am super off base in thinking Lift ages weird. I can't remember why I think that and am suddenly second guessing myself.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarimar Posted May 17, 2018 Report Share Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) That is a good point about Dalinar. He assumed that his curse was forgetting his wife, but I don't think that he ever says what he assumed his gift was. Losing his memories could be seen as a gift and a curse, because his memories caused him so much pain, but Dalinar couldn't have known that because the pain was erased when the memories were. As far as Lift, I don't know exactly how old she was when she visited the Nightwatcher. Here are two conflicting WoBs... Quote Brandon Sanderson When I was building The Stormlight Archive I said, "I want the Knights Radiant to run the gamut of different character styles, ages, and types of story." And when you say "knight"--when I say knight you imagine one thing. What you don't imagine is a thirteen-year-old Hispanic girl, right? Quote Alice aka Wetlander (paraphrased) Is it relevant that Lift was ten when she stopped aging? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It isn't a coincidence. So... maybe Brandon is just speaking generally in the first WoB - perhaps Lift isn't actually thirteen, but she is around that age. The second WoB also seems to say that Lift stopped aging when she was ten, which is a surprise to me because I was under the impression that she kept on aging normally after visiting the Nightwatcher. My guess is that Brandon is answering vaguely here - the number 10 is significant to Roshar in general, but I don't think that 10 years old was when Lift stopped aging, because she has inteed continued to age - I believe she makes this observation herself in Edgedancer. 2 hours ago, Philomath said: And I think people have speculated that Cultivation intervened with Lift too. I personally don't think Cultivation was involved with Lift's boon/curse, even though some people do. I think that some people overstate Cultivation's possible influence and her level of manipulation - they speculate that she was involved in the boon/curses of all the main characters who have visited the Old Magic - Dalinar, Taravangian, and Lift. However I am inclined to think that at least in the case of Lift, she was not involved, mainly because Cultivation says herself to Dalinar that she rarely intervenes with the Nightwatcher's boon/curses. There is also a WoB where Brandon basically says that Lift's boon/curse was a "strange answer," given by the Nightwatcher, in response to a "strange question" - not the result of intentional manipulation by Cultivation, but just another boon/curse from the Nightwatcher. Quote Questioner So the character Lift, for her powers, why does she have to eat food instead of sucking in-- Brandon Sanderson So why does Lift have to eat food instead of sucking in Stormlight. So Lift is a really weird one, she visited the Old Magic and asked something very strange. And the Old Magic didn't know how to treat that and answered with something equally strange. So you will eventually see what happened with Lift and things like that but suffice it to say some really weird things are going on with Lift. As far as what Lift's curse actually is, I have two theories. Her curse could be that she can only derive Stormlight from food, and cannot draw it from spheres like other Knights Radiant. If that is correct, then her boon/curse would be seen as two sides of the same coin, just like Taravangian and Dalinar. My other theory is that her curse makes her unwillingly enters the dreams and the nightmares of other people when she sleeps, making sleeping unpleasant for her. I proposed that theory earlier on THIS thread - some people didn't agree with the idea, but I still think it's a possibility that Lift's curse has something to do with dreams. Edited May 17, 2018 by Llarimar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szmit Posted May 17, 2018 Report Share Posted May 17, 2018 6 hours ago, Philomath said: Okay so just a few questions about these two and their visit to the Nightwatcher. In world the assumption is you ask the Nightwatcher for a boon and you get that for the price of receiving a curse as well. Now we know that Dalinar's visit was slightly abnormal given that Cultivation intervened and pruned his memories. And it ended up not really being a boon/curse situation. But Dalinar didn't remember that. So what did he think he asked for? It seems he assumed his curse was losing his memories. But never mentioned what he thought he gained. As far as I understand Dalinar gets both boon and a curse and is aware of them. Boon - forgetting his regrets Curse - forgetting his wife And about Lift - she wanted to stop growing up, so she was moved closer to cognitive realm, so her body became easily shapable by selfperception. As far as i know she WAS 10 throughout that 3 years, and started suddenly growing older in Edgedancer because of internal growth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ElephantEarwax Posted May 18, 2018 Report Share Posted May 18, 2018 Quote Questioner So in The Stormlight Archive series-- Brandon Sanderson The Stormlight Archive? How old are you? *laughter* How old are you? Questioner Nine. Brandon Sanderson Nine?! You're reading The Stormlight Archive? You are awesome! *cheers* Questioner So the character Lift, for her powers, why does she have to eat food instead of sucking in-- Brandon Sanderson So why does Lift have to eat food instead of sucking in Stormlight. So Lift is a really weird one, she visited the Old Magic and asked something very strange. And the Old Magic didn't know how to treat that and answered with something equally strange. So you will eventually see what happened with Lift and things like that but suffice it to say some really weird things are going on with Lift. source Lift did not get what she asked for, I'm pretty sure what this means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angsos Posted May 18, 2018 Report Share Posted May 18, 2018 Maybe she asked the nightwatcher for pancakes 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted May 19, 2018 Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 Lift is aging. She simply doesn't want to admit It. We have a direct reference in books of her having her First period and freaking out. Some speculate the Old Magic gave her an unchanging mentality as outocme of her request but It's speculative. The only sure fact is She is aging physically regardless what She tells 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willshaping Crasher Posted May 19, 2018 Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 On 5/16/2018 at 6:57 PM, Philomath said: (I apologize if I am super off base in thinking Lift ages weird. I can't remember why I think that and am suddenly second guessing myself.) Actually, I think you are correct. So much about Lift is unusual that things like her age can get lost in other speculation. My opinion is that she is older (perhaps far older) than most people would like to think. Her behavior and understanding of human interaction are far beyond any 13 year old I have ever met. In addition: On 5/16/2018 at 9:13 PM, Llarimar said: Alice aka Wetlander (paraphrased) Is it relevant that Lift was ten when she stopped aging? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It isn't a coincidence. Why would Sanderson accept the premise that she "stopped aging" if she didn't stop aging for at least some period? If she is truly 13, then she never stopped aging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philomath Posted May 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 8 hours ago, Yata said: Lift is aging. She simply doesn't want to admit It. We have a direct reference in books of her having her First period and freaking out. Some speculate the Old Magic gave her an unchanging mentality as outocme of her request but It's speculative. The only sure fact is She is aging physically regardless what She tells She is definitely aging now. I'm just not sure she was always aging normally. And yes she is definitely an unreliable narrator. 2 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said: Actually, I think you are correct. So much about Lift is unusual that things like her age can get lost in other speculation. My opinion is that she is older (perhaps far older) than most people would like to think. Her behavior and understanding of human interaction are far beyond any 13 year old I have ever met. In addition: Why would Sanderson accept the premise that she "stopped aging" if she didn't stop aging for at least some period? If she is truly 13, then she never stopped aging. Glad I wasn't crazy. I agree that I think she is a lot older. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she was even hundreds of years "old" due to the old magic stopping her age and it now just recently is aging again. She is just this amazing odd mix of immaturity and deep understanding. And sometimes I feel like her immaturity is hiding something about her. On 5/17/2018 at 2:42 AM, Szmit said: And about Lift - she wanted to stop growing up, so she was moved closer to cognitive realm, so her body became easily shapable by selfperception. As far as i know she WAS 10 throughout that 3 years, and started suddenly growing older in Edgedancer because of internal growth. That is actually a really interesting idea. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 19, 2018 Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 (edited) Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher was the first time in ages that Cultivation stepped in. It was, however, prior to when Lift visited. Dalinar's visit was 5 1/2 years ago, Lift's was 3. Dalinar's visit was also a half year prior to Taravangian's mysterious malady "5 years" ago. Edited May 19, 2018 by Calderis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willshaping Crasher Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 9 hours ago, Calderis said: Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher was the first time in ages that Cultivation stepped in. It was, however, prior to when Lift visited. Dalinar's visit was 5 1/2 years ago, Lift's was 3. Dalinar's visit was also a half year prior to Taravangian's mysterious malady "5 years" ago. I believe Cultivation said "the first time in centuries". So Lift could be over 213 and this would still be a true statement. I know everyone wants to lock down the timeline precisely and they may be right. However, I still do not see Lift's behavior as that of a 13 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Willshaping Crasher said: I believe Cultivation said "the first time in centuries". So Lift could be over 213 and this would still be a true statement. I know everyone wants to lock down the timeline precisely and they may be right. However, I still do not see Lift's behavior as that of a 13 year old. She's 13. From her interlude in WoR she says she's 10 and has been for 3 years, then in Edgedancer there's hints that she's freaked out from getting her first period. Her request was not granted in the way she wished. She is aging, she has given us a time frame on her visit, and we've been told by Brandon that it did not work out the way she wanted. All together, it seems pretty straight forward to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willshaping Crasher Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Calderis said: She's 13. From her interlude in WoR she says she's 10 and has been for 3 years, then in Edgedancer there's hints that she's freaked out from getting her first period. Her request was not granted in the way she wished. She is aging, she has given us a time frame on her visit, and we've been told by Brandon that it did not work out the way she wanted. All together, it seems pretty straight forward to me. If you wish to lock it down, go ahead, see it as straight forward. I do not. In Edgedancer, she thinks that her request was to "not change". Quote Lift shaded her eyes. The wrong things were changing. She was supposed to stay the same, and the world was supposed to change around her. She'd asked for that, hadn't she? Compare this with the WoB: On 5/18/2018 at 7:03 AM, ElephantEarwax said: Brandon Sanderson So why does Lift have to eat food instead of sucking in Stormlight. So Lift is a really weird one, she visited the Old Magic and asked something very strange. And the Old Magic didn't know how to treat that and answered with something equally strange. So you will eventually see what happened with Lift and things like that but suffice it to say some really weird things are going on with Lift. She asked something very strange................ Not Changing is strange?!! Not Aging is strange?!! We have entire industries (makeup, plastic surgery, etc.) dedicated to making people appear ageless/changeless. Whether Lift just met the Nightwatcher (unlikely) or met Cultivation, I doubt it would have taken more than a few human visits for someone to request to remain "ageless" or "changeless". To me, this suggests she is an unreliable narrator. I base my opinion (and it is just an opinion) on her behavior. It does not suggest a 13 year old to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angsos Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 I'm not getting into the whole Lift debate but she does strike me as an unreliable narrator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockheart Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 My theory on Lift who Ive come to love: Lift is aging. Physically. But not mentally/emotionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) On 5/19/2018 at 5:06 AM, Willshaping Crasher said: Why would Sanderson accept the premise that she "stopped aging" if she didn't stop aging for at least some period? If she is truly 13, then she never stopped aging. Brandon often doesn't go out of his way to correct peoples questions, if you give him enough rope, especially when asking about things he plans to reveal in the future, he will hang you with it. If you make an assumption in your questions, he often does not go out of his way to correct it, unless it's something he feels should already be clear. My opinion on Lift is that she is aging, she just doesn't want to admit it and she believes herself not to be because she asked not to. Even in her introduction in WoR her fellow thieves don't believe her when she tells them she's ten. Edited May 23, 2018 by thejopen27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angsos Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Lift probably is aging, just more slowly than normal. Do we know if spren age because she's close to their realm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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