Inverted Gold/ Malatium

[Fatikis]

I wanted to talk about Malatium. I very odd name for the alloy of Atium and Gold. The root mala usually meaning bad or wrong. In MB Era1 Sazed is unable to figure out what Malatium can store Feruchemically.

In Allomancy we have almost a ruined gold effect. A twisted version of gold. I think Feruchemically this might be similar. We will have a parody of gold. We know gold stores health. I suggest that Feruchemically Malatium stores harm. Sazed if not injured would have had trouble storing an attribute of which he was currently lacking. If this is the case this would be even more powerful than health. You essentially would never need to tap this metalmind. Just simply store all of your harm into it.
 

Now, I also believe this has to do with Ape Manton someone killing allomancers in Era2 that tortured Wax. I believe he is using Feruchemical Malatium and using a reverse gold symbol as there is currently no Feruchemical symbol for malatium. I do not have much evidence because there is not much to comb through in regards to Ape. This simply is an idea.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Fatikis

[Weltall]

Huh, I hadn't caught on that the symbol he used was the one for Gold but that's a neat bit of trivia. We know Sazed tried experimenting with malatium but in Brandon's words 'he didn't get far'. Another possibility (which could still fit your theory) is that since A-Malatium externalizes the effect of A-Gold, perhaps F-Malatium doesn't so much invert F-Gold but externalizes it as well. Thus, it stores someone else's health (perhaps based on contact, a la A-Duralumin/Chromium) and this stored health can then be used to heal other people. Would be a way to have externalized healing that's not dependant on an unsealed F-Gold medallion and if the storing of health works like F-Gold does, using it on someone could indeed be torture if you crank it up enough.

Either way, great food for thought on F-Malatium and props again for making that connection with Ape's symbol,

Edited May 14, 2018 by Weltall

[Dearius]

I seem to recall seeing a Word Of Brandon some time ago regarding aloys of the base sixteen metals and the ‘God’ metals.  I could be wrong, but I recall that each metal, when combined with a ‘God’ metal, would result in a new power.  Essentially there would be a new set of 16 alomantic and feruchemic powers for each God metal.  

What I have wondered about is weather the metals alloyed with Atium or Lerasium would all share a theme based off of either shard.  Perhaps powers or abilities that are generally more destructive in nature with Atium?  I hesitate to try and guess powers solely on the frankly limited information that we have, but I had completely forgotten Malatium’s presence in the text. 

[Gray to]

What do you meam by harm? Are you saying pain or injuries? It would be cool if you have a cut or something, then you store malatium and the cut is healed.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Gray to

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Dearius said:

What I have wondered about is weather the metals alloyed with Atium or Lerasium would all share a theme based off of either shard.  Perhaps powers or abilities that are generally more destructive in nature with Atium?

We have no idea with feruchemical applications since we know a grand total of zero of them so far and don't even know what pure lerasium does. However, we have a Word of Peter that atium alloys don't necessarily follow a pattern and an older WoB that atium alloys all have temporal effects in allomancy. We do know for a fact that the allomantic effects of all lerasium alloys are the exact same thing as pure lerasium, except that instead of making you a mistborn they make you an extremely powerful misting.

The mention of godmetal alloys in the recent Ars Arcana suggests we'll be seeing at least a few alloys in time.

[+robardin]

I like your thoughts on what the Feruchemical property of malatium might have been in Era 1, but are you suggesting that Ape Manton was a Ferring for F-malatium? There's a couple of problems with that, #1 being, where would he get the metal from? There's no easy source of atium in Era 2, which would make creating an alloy of it even more diffcult/rare.

The other problem is something I'm still not 100% on - how/what atium functioned on the Wheel of Metallic Arts in Era 1, and/or Era 2.

The "Ferrings" we see in Era 2 are an effect of the genes for Feruchemy mixing with those for Allomancy.

Allomancy only naturally occurs in the Scadrial population as Mistings - all Mistborn stem from use of, or descendants of, someone who ingested a lerasium bead (or maybe descendants of TLR, who in some WoB was mentioned to have fathered children in his long life).

One of the clues Preservation built in to his Master Plan was that "mist sickness" hit 1/16 of those affected especially hard - the atium Mistings.- as a hint that they had gained "the most powerful of the sixteen abilities". In other words, Preservation's plan involved swapping in atium into the "wheel" of 16 Allomantic powers, i.e., allowing for atium Mistings, for one of the metals it otherwise would have gone to.

We see later in Era 2 that there are documented Mistings of each of the 16 known metals, so that means there are no more atium Mistings after the Catacendre, so that twiddle was undone by Harmony.

Right?

Now, did Preservation swap out atium for one of the four "undiscovered" metals of the FE, or atium+alloy for metal+alloy? I've always assumed the metal was cadmium: that the Final Empire had latent Mistings for chromium and nicrosil, but that TLR suppressed knowledge of those metals because Leechers and Nicrobursts would be very, very disruptive (a Leecher Misting could be dangerous even to him). And assuming he was aware of the Feruchemical properties of them metals, even more so. But, no "time bubble" Mistings, because Preservation swapped it out to create Mistings for atium and ...

And what? Were there "malatium" Mistings? That seems unlikely, since atium would alloy with ANY of the base metals, right? So why allow for Mistings specifically of malatium?

As for atium in Era 2, I don't think any Allomancers (or Feruchemists) without roots in Era 1 could make use of it any more. Marsh, Demoux, and that's about it, I think, plus any Mistborn that might occur again or still be around (the Sovereign). The "Mistborn" gene is like a "superuser permission" that can access all metals, full stop, but the Bands only contain metalminds giving the ability to use "all" sixteen Allomantic metals, the sixteen being the post-Catacendre Wheel of Metals, which doesn't include atium.

 

 

 

[Fatikis]

24 minutes ago, robardin said:

One of the clues Preservation built in to his Master Plan was that "mist sickness" hit 1/16 of those affected especially hard - the atium Mistings.- as a hint that they had gained "the most powerful of the sixteen abilities". In other words, Preservation's plan involved swapping in atium into the "wheel" of 16 Allomantic powers, i.e., allowing for atium Mistings, for one of the metals it otherwise would have gone to.

We see later in Era 2 that there are documented Mistings of each of the 16 known metals, so that means there are no more atium Mistings after the Catacendre, so that twiddle was undone by Harmony.

Right?

Preservation altered some of the mistings that would have been of the other metals to be Atium mistings instead. This does not mean that there were not naturally atium mistings. It means that he needed a lot of atium mistings quickly. If you think about it they found far more atium mistings than they should have very quickly. More atium mistings than other mistings in the army. 

24 minutes ago, robardin said:

And what? Were there "malatium" Mistings? That seems unlikely, since atium would alloy with ANY of the base metals, right? So why allow for Mistings specifically of malatium?

I do not believe Malatium mistings exist. Sanderson has RAFO'd this. I believe because atium is itself investiture that an atium misting can burn all atium alloys. Atium alloys essentially not being fueled by Preservation the atium access is itself the key.

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As for atium in Era 2, I don't think any Allomancers (or Feruchemists) without roots in Era 1 could make use of it any more. Marsh, Demoux, and that's about it, I think, plus any Mistborn that might occur again or still be around (the Sovereign). The "Mistborn" gene is like a "superuser permission" that can access all metals, full stop, but the Bands only contain metalminds giving the ability to use "all" sixteen Allomantic metals, the sixteen being the post-Catacendre Wheel of Metals, which doesn't include atium.

The bands would not have contained atium usage as Kelsier would have had to store atium power in them to make it. He isn't going to waste atium on that. He used the 16 base metals. The god metals are not part of the base allomantic wheel.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Fatikis

[+robardin]

5 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Preservation altered some of the mistings that would have been of the other metals to be Atium mistings instead. This does not mean that there were not naturally atium mistings. It means that he needed a lot of atium mistings quickly.

...

The bands would not have contained atium usage as Kelsier would have had to store atium power in them to make it. He isn't going to waste atium on that. He used the 16 base metals. The god metals are not part of the base allomantic wheel.

I think those two statements are contradictory, in my thinking/understanding of how "Mistings" occur

I do like the idea that Yomen would have been able to burn malatium, that an atium misting could basically burn atium and any of its alloys, as an aspect of its... godliness? But I don't think there'd be natural Mistings of a god metal, that's part of what makes then "god" metals, yeah? But absent a Shardic twiddle which now apears to have been undone, the sDNA for Mistings would be semi-randomly spun out of the base wheel.

To be specific - I agree that there were "naturally" atium Mistings in Era 1, but only because of Leras' twiddle, which was there from the beginning. But after Sazed remade the world, he restored the Metallic Wheel, and there are no more atium Mistings (supported by the fact that there ARE Mistings of all sixteen metals in Era 2).

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by robardin

[Fatikis]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

I think those two statements are contradictory, in my thinking/understanding of how "Mistings" occur

I do like the idea that Yomen would have been able to burn malatium, that an atium misting could basically burn atium and any of its alloys, as an aspect of its... godliness? But I don't think there'd be natural Mistings of a god metal, that's part of what makes then "god" metals, yeah? But absent a Shardic twiddle which now apears to have been undone, the sDNA for Mistings would be semi-randomly spun out of the base wheel.

Why would that wheel not include a rare god metal area? Scadrians are permeated with with both Ruin and Preservation. Lerasium can be burned by all. So I would think that at the very least there would be a few natural born individuals with sDNA to burn atium.

I will admit you could be right, but we are coming onto a book called The Lost Metal which is most likely atium. Would be kind of a let down if no one can burn it.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Fatikis

[+robardin]

47 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Why would that wheel not include a rare god metal area? Scadrians are permeated with with both Ruin and Preservation. Lerasium can be burned by all. So I would think that at the very least there would be a few natural born individuals with sDNA to burn atium.

I will admit you could be right, but we are coming onto a book called The Lost Metal which is most likely atium. Would be kind of a let down if no one can burn it.

Ha, the one thing I am sure of is that that is NOT the "lost metal" of reference in the title, any more than the Bands of Mourning were actually what everybody thought they were. Or else it's going to be atium, but in a new context from what we've ever seen it before.

Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious from my first response, if I'm correct that atium Mistings were a hack by Leras in the first place and no longer occur in Era 2 (and that malatium Mistings may not have existed even in Era 1), then there certainly cannot be atium or malatium Ferrings, because Ferrings are a reflection of the power of Feruchemy broken up - sharded or splintered, if you will - into the 16 "spokes" of the Allomantic powers on the wheel of Metallic Arts. While there are going to be god metals "off the wheel", they won't have Mistings for them; it would need a Mistborn to burn them, except for the special case of lerasium, which is kind of the ultimate source of Allomancy in the first place. And a Full Feruchemist to use them as a metalmind for whatever it is they would store.

As for what the feruchemical attribute of malatium would be: we have no idea, but even if A-malatium appears to be a kind of reversal of what A-gold gives, that doesn't mean F-malatium stores a reversal of F-gold, since the power of A-gold has nothing to do with F-gold. It's not like F-iron (weight) and F-steel (speed) are "paired" to each other or similar to the allomantic powers for the same metals.

Edited May 14, 2018 by robardin

[Fatikis]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Ha, the one thing I am sure of is that that is NOT the "lost metal" of reference in the title, any more than the Bands of Mourning were actually what everybody thought they were. Or else it's going to be atium, but in a new context from what we've ever seen it before.

That is an odd thing to be sure of. The lost metal is specifically referencing Atium in the earlier Era2 books. Era2 takes place about 300 years after the pits were destroyed. About the amount of time that it was theorized for the pits to begin producing Atium again.

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Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious from my first response, if I'm correct that atium Mistings were a hack by Leras in the first place and no longer occur in Era 2 (and that malatium Mistings may not have existed even in Era 1), then there certainly cannot be atium Ferrings, because Ferrings are a reflection of the power of Feruchemy broken up - sharded or splintered, if you will - into the 16 "spokes" of the Allomantic powers on the wheel of Metallic Arts. While there are going to be god metals "off the wheel", they won't have Mistings for them; it would need a Mistborn to burn them, except for the special case of lerasium, which is kind of the ultimate source of Allomancy in the first place.

What you are saying doesn't mesh up well with what we know. Feruchemy does work with Atium. If you broke up Feruchemy you'd have atium ferrings. If you break up Mistborn there would be atium mistings. I don't understand your reasoning for only full Mistborns or Feruchemists being able to access god metals. We have seen it happen. It is more than plausible that it can still happen. Even with Leras altering allomantic potential the possibilities of atium mistings should exist. We know it is functionally possible. I don't see a valid reason why it would just stop.

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As for what the feruchemical attribute of malatium would be - even if A-malatium appears to be a kind of reversal of what A-gold gives, that doesn't mean F-malatium stores a reversal of F-gold, since the power of A-gold has nothing to do with F-gold. It's not like F-iron (weight) and F-steel (speed) are "paired" to each other or similar to the allomantic powers for the same metals.

I could be wrong, but my idea is that A-malatium abilities are very similar to gold but warped. So F-malatium may have similar properties to F-gold but warped.

[+robardin]

28 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

What you are saying doesn't mesh up well with what we know. Feruchemy does work with Atium. If you broke up Feruchemy you'd have atium ferrings. If you break up Mistborn there would be atium mistings. I don't understand your reasoning for only full Mistborns or Feruchemists being able to access god metals. We have seen it happen. It is more than plausible that it can still happen. Even with Leras altering allomantic potential the possibilities of atium mistings should exist. We know it is functionally possible. I don't see a valid reason why it would just stop.

I'm going off of the premise that there are only meant to be sixteen kinds of Allomancers under normal circumstances, based on what Ministry Dogma was about the Metallic Arts (as mentioned by Yomen) in observing that 16 "is a recurring number", plus the hint that 1/16 of the "mistfallen" were the atium Mistings, plus what Preservation (Leras) straight up says to Kelsier in the Cognitive Realm in Secret History that "sixteen is the number of metals in Allomancy" (and that Kelsier's objection that there were only ten, "eleven if you count the one I discovered", was "stupid").

In doing a little digging on the 17th Shard, I find that there are also WoB that atium Mistings "were designed and created specifically to do what they did" (by Preservation), and that that Leras did so by removing metals from circulation, as it were.

The fact that in Era 2 there are sixteen known metals, with Mistings in each of them, suggests that Harmony "un-hacked" the set of 16 metals, i.e., removed atium and put back what Leras had swapped out for it, what I personally guess to be cadmium and/or bendalloy. Which means, no Mistings for any other metals that those sixteen.

Ferrings are Feruchemy "fractured" by the genes for Allomancy along the lines for those metals, so if there can only be Mistings in sixteen metals, there can only be Ferrings in the same sixteen metals.

We already know Mistborn can burn "all metals" and full Feruchemists can store/tap into "all metals", but that's not because they are an aggregation of "all (sixteen) powers"  the way the Bands of Mourning are, rather they're a superuser level kind of sDNA that says "no matter what it is, if it can be burned/tapped, you can burn/tap it". And the only metals we know of that are burnable/tappable other than the Sixteen are the god metals, or some alloy thereof.

Edited May 14, 2018 by robardin

[Fatikis]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

We already know Mistborn can burn "all metals" and full Feruchemists can store/tap into "all metals", but that's not because they are an aggregation of "all (sixteen) powers"  the way the Bands of Mourning are, rather they're a superuser level kind of sDNA that says "no matter what it is, if it can be burned/tapped, you can burn/tap it". And the only metals we know of that are burnable/tappable other than the Sixteen are the god metals, or some alloy thereof.

First you have a key misunderstanding of the bands. They are metalminds. The power is stored in them. They aren't raw Mistborn power. They are the power that Kelsier directly placed into them. They aren't "superuser" whatever that means here.

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

I'm going off of the premise that there are only meant to be sixteen kinds of Allomancers under normal circumstances, based on what Ministry Dogma was about the Metallic Arts (as mentioned by Yomen) in observing that 16 "is a recurring number", plus the hint that 1/16 of the "mistfallen" were the atium Mistings, plus what Preservation (Leras) straight up says to Kelsier in the Cognitive Realm in Secret History that "sixteen is the number of metals in Allomancy" (and that Kelsier's objection that there were only ten, "eleven if you count the one I discovered", as "stupid").

Yes, 16 is an important number in the Cosmere as a whole. Sixteen is the base number in allomancy. No one is arguing that fact.

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In doing a little digging on the 17th Shard, I find that there are also WoB that atium Mistings "were designed and created specifically to do what they did" (by Preservation), and that that Leras did so by removing metals from circulation, as it were.

You are trying to smash two quote together to mean what you want them to mean. I'm not nor have I argued that fact that Leras replaced some of the mistings with atium mistings. Leras removing mistings from circulation does not mean that atium mistings did not exist naturally. It is more than plausible that they didn't exist at a high enough level to stop Ruin.

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The fact that in Era 2 there are sixteen known metals, with Mistings in each of them, suggests that Harmony "un-hacked" the set of 16 metals, i.e., removed atium and put back what Leras had swapped out for it, what I personally guess to be cadmium and/or bendalloy. Which means, no Mistings for any other metals that those sixteen.

It suggests that Harmony allows the 16 base allomantic mistings. It does not imply he removed misting potential for atium. Leras liked the number 16 because of the Cosmere relevance. This is why his signals were 16. Something he thought the people would understand. Harmony does not have a reason to stop atium mistings from existing. Just because there previous were 16 natural mistings does not mean there are not more now. It for sure does not mean those are the only mistings.

 

I am not saying I am correct. I am saying that you aren't necessarily correct. We do not have enough information to conclude whether atium mistings exist. We have no idea what Sazed has done with the magic system.

[+robardin]

That the Bands are not "raw Mistborn power" is exactly my point. A Mistborn is not an aggregation of Misting powers, it's a special superuser case, and the Bands do not grant atium. I don't think I said or implied otherwise.

Basically I read Leras' comment (and who would know better?) that only sixteen types of Misting Allomancers can ever naturally exist (get born) at a time, as a built-in to the way that Allomancy works, and that all Mistings are equally likely to any other kind. Your idea would require that there be sixteen "base metal" Mistings, plus some rarer, less frequent number of god-metal Mistings that are simply not seen in Era 2 because how would they ever reveal themselves?

I just don't see why that would be the case, it seems far less elegant and unnecessary to the magical structure. There's literally no reason for there to be god-metal Mistings any more. And we have a WoB that states that for atium Mistings to exist, Leras had to "take out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals" to do so, in terms of what Mistings mists could Snap people into becoming. So my idea that 16 was not just a number Leras liked but is actually part of the way Allomancy works (the scope of metals for naturally occuring Mistings) has pretty solid support.