[OB spoilers] Why Surgebinding and Shard-blade and Plate are probably the most deadly form of investeture

[Broseph]

Ok, So you've read the title and you know what this is about, feel free to criticise

So first thing is that stormlight is basically raw investiture and I have some reasons for this .

1.So from what we know stormlight is only called that because it comes from storms which we know is Honor's perpendicularity so investiture comes out and gets trapped in gems.

2.We have WoB that allomancy which basically uses metal as a filter to get a certain result (e.g white light through a red film to get red light) however WoB Lift says that uses calories or other biological material which the way I see it has no relation to investiture like metal and the way I see it means that it doesn't filter investiture  meaning that raw investiture is moved into lift's body which would make sence if its the only way she can access to stormlight (we have WoB on that to) then it would have to be the same kind of investiture as the other radiants.

3. Breaths are something given by Endowment and whilst made of investiture the best way I can visualise it is that it is block a certain sized block of ice whilst normal investiture is like water both made of the same stuff but still different. Which would make sence as breaths are given by endowment (Originally) whilst stormlight is only shaped and used after inside the surge-binders body. This would also make sence  as (WoB said) is on Roshar to get breaths easly but has not figured how to use stormlight to fuel awakening/ make breaths yet and WoB also says you can use breaths to fuel surgebinding if you can actually transfer it. Which fits the analogy people can metabolise ice into water and if they couldn't it it would still melt but freezing water can't be done 

Second is that shardblades (Considering they cut the soul) can kill almost anything and I will list them now.

1. Awakened object below IV

2. Awakeners/Returned (Breaths are basically fancy soul glue which a shard blade could cut)

2. Elentrians(sever connection with AonDor)

3 Shades

4 Shadows (The big things from Sixth of the dusk cuase a nick would still sever the soul)

5.Fused(They re-incarnate but still..)

Conclusion: Surgebinders can get there power anywhere investiture is preset and kill anything with there blade and if they have plate the chances of you taking them down in a 1 hit K.O or just fast enough stop you cutting you are slim to none (And as an aside one of them basically made the well of Ascension/The Pits of Hathsin/The Pool by just clapping their hands once ,so you know match that with a steel push)

 

[King Cole he/him]

Counter point, Compounding

[RShara she/her]

22 minutes ago, Broseph said:

Surgebinders can get there power anywhere investiture is preset and kill anything with there blade and if they have plate the chances of you taking them down in a 1 hit K.O or just fast enough stop you cutting you are slim to none (And as an aside one of them basically made the well of Ascension/The Pits of Hathsin/The Pool by just clapping their hands once ,so you know match that with a steel push)

All of the systems can be hacked to power the others.  That doesn't mean it's easy.  Getting investiture for surgebinding from Allomancy (metals) would be super hard.  So the surgebinder would be without investiture.

Allomancers can use metal from any planet.  And if it's a full Mistborn, they're going to be able to use coins and such to (eventually) crack your Plate, and pewter to break through it, and evade cuts from the Shardblade.  And if they have atium, the surgebinder is basically screwed.

And that's not even counting compounders, who are ridiculously overpowered in some cases.  A Steel compounder would flatten the surgebinder in pretty much 10 seconds flat.

Also, a gold Feruchemist or a kandra would likely be able to heal from Shardblade wounds.  A gold compounder can heal even from beheading.

Edited April 24, 2018 by RShara

[Broseph]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

And if they have atium, the surgebinder is basically screwed.

I can see where you come from with most of your argument but this bit always annoys me whenever it comes up

The way I see it the surgebinder can outlast the atium user becuase it will run out before the storm light does and before anyone says that a shot to the head will kill them remember that shallan took a crossbow bolt through the centre of her face into her brain then pulled it out no questions asked.

[Fatikis he/him]

30 minutes ago, Broseph said:

Ok, So you've read the title and you know what this is about, feel free to criticise

So first thing is that stormlight is basically raw investiture and I have some reasons for this .

1.So from what we know stormlight is only called that because it comes from storms which we know is Honor's perpendicularity so investiture comes out and gets trapped in gems.

Stormlight is Honor's investiture. Do we know it is a perpendicularity? I could be wrong, but I thought Dalinar specifically opened the perpendicularity. I had assumed that Honor's perpendicularity was gone right now.
 

Quote

2.We have WoB that allomancy which basically uses metal as a filter to get a certain result (e.g white light through a red film to get red light) however WoB Lift says that uses calories or other biological material which the way I see it has no relation to investiture like metal and the way I see it means that it doesn't filter investiture  meaning that raw investiture is moved into lift's body which would make sence if its the only way she can access to stormlight (we have WoB on that to) then it would have to be the same kind of investiture as the other radiants.

Lift does metabolize things into investiture. She is more than likely using raw investiture to power her abilities. However it isn't stormlight. It is just investiture.
 

Quote

3. Breaths are something given by Endowment and whilst made of investiture the best way I can visualise it is that it is block a certain sized block of ice whilst normal investiture is like water both made of the same stuff but still different. Which would make sence as breaths are given by endowment (Originally) whilst stormlight is only shaped and used after inside the surge-binders body. This would also make sence  as (WoB said) is on Roshar to get breaths easly but has not figured how to use stormlight to fuel awakening/ make breaths yet and WoB also says you can use breaths to fuel surgebinding if you can actually transfer it. Which fits the analogy people can metabolise ice into water and if they couldn't it it would still melt but freezing water can't be done 

I might be missing it, but I don't see the point.
 

Quote

Second is that shardblades (Considering they cut the soul) can kill almost anything and I will list them now.

1. Awakened object below IV

2. Awakeners/Returned (Breaths are basically fancy soul glue which a shard blade could cut)

2. Elentrians(sever connection with AonDor)

3 Shades

4 Shadows (The big things from Sixth of the dusk cuase a nick would still sever the soul)

5.Fused(They re-incarnate but still..)

Conclusion: Surgebinders can get there power anywhere investiture is preset and kill anything with there blade and if they have plate the chances of you taking them down in a 1 hit K.O or just fast enough stop you cutting you are slim to none (And as an aside one of them basically made the well of Ascension/The Pits of Hathsin/The Pool by just clapping their hands once ,so you know match that with a steel push)

Anyone can learn to use investiture from anywhere to fuel their power. It isn't always easy, but it can be done.

Anything heavily invested could stop a shardblade. Heck they have half shards on Roshar already. Metalminds with enough investiture should resists a shardblade. Something with enough breath should be able to stop it also. Nightblood is about 100% more powerful than a shardblade.

Surgebinders are power for sure. I wouldn't say they are the most deadly. In the Cosmere knowledge is the most deadly thing.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Fatikis

[RShara she/her]

6 minutes ago, Broseph said:

I can see where you come from with most of your argument but this bit always annoys me whenever it comes up

The way I see it the surgebinder can outlast the atium user becuase it will run out before the storm light does and before anyone says that a shot to the head will kill them remember that shallan took a crossbow bolt through the centre of her face into her brain then pulled it out no questions asked.

But in your scenario, the surgebinder wasn't on Roshar, and didn't have unlimited amounts of stormlight.  And a surgebinder can heal a bolt to the head, but not a beheading.  So burn atium for 10 seconds, cut off the head, done.

[Broseph]

1 minute ago, Fatikis said:

Stormlight is Honor's investiture. Do we know it is a perpendicularity? I could be wrong, but I thought Dalinar specifically opened the perpendicularity. I had assumed that Honor's perpendicularity was gone right now.

They say it travels with the high storm thats why Dalinar when bonded to the stromfather could summon it and why it has never been done before (Stormfather is the last remenants of honour meaning that he is the highest concentration of the shard honour)

And raw investiture comes out of all perpendicularity unless specifically shaped and if hour is dead I doubt it is.

[King Cole he/him]

The strongest in the Cosmere is, without a shadow of a doubt, are Fullborn. They could literally tear a Surgebinder to pieces without touching them. And thats not even considering super speed, healing, strength, seeing the future, etc.

[Broseph]

Just now, RShara said:

But in your scenario, the surgebinder wasn't on Roshar, and didn't have unlimited amounts of stormlight.  And a surgebinder can heal a bolt to the head, but not a beheading.  So burn atium for 10 seconds, cut off the head, done.

Actually they can 

I think Ivory said that unless the entire brain is turned to paste in an instant then the can heal back from anything (This is cuase they still have an ideal self even moving coins around in the brain wouldn't be eanogh)

as to the lack of stormlight on scandrial probably yeah

[RShara she/her]

1 minute ago, King Cole said:

The strongest in the Cosmere is, without a shadow of a doubt, are Fullborn. They could literally tear a Surgebinder to pieces without touching them. And thats not even considering super speed, healing, strength, seeing the future, etc.

Yup.

[Fatikis he/him]

1 minute ago, Broseph said:

They say it travels with the high storm thats why Dalinar when bonded to the stromfather could summon it and why it has never been done before (Stormfather is the last remenants of honour meaning that he is the highest concentration of the shard honour)

And raw investiture comes out of all perpendicularity unless specifically shaped and if hour is dead I doubt it is.

You are right it is. I derped for a second. Your main argument still seems to be that the easy accessibility of stormlight is why Radiant are the most powerful. Which doesn't make sense really. I'm sure with the right knowledge a Mistborn could use stormlight. 

Off Roshar you are also going to run out of stormlight very quickly.

[Broseph]

1 minute ago, King Cole said:

The strongest in the Cosmere is, without a shadow of a doubt, are Fullborn. They could literally tear a Surgebinder to pieces without touching them. And thats not even considering super speed, healing, strength, seeing the future, etc.

What metal would they use? (dont know that mutch mistborn)

but im pretty sure plate and blade + surges could get them close enough to get a kill shot and they could use gold to recover cuase similar to surgebinder unless you have stormlight currently inside you / burning gold its a 1 hit K.O

[Broseph]

2 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

You are right it is. I derped for a second. Your main argument still seems to be that the easy accessibility of stormlight is why Radiant are the most powerful. Which doesn't make sense really. I'm sure with the right knowledge a Mistborn could use stormlight. 

but to do so they would need to become a radiant they don't absorb storm light  to do allomany the just open a pathway for investiture and surge could be powered by that but allomancy couldn't be powered stormlight

I'm not saying that Kaladin could go do it anywhere i'm saying that surgebinding is incredibly powerfull as a mistborn could use it or a returend or and elantrian 

[RShara she/her]

I'm pretty sure it's easier to hack Allomancy to work off of stormlight than it would be to hack surgebinding to work off of metal.

 

Also, according to Kaladin in WoR
 

Quote

Kaladin pulled back a hair too slowly, and the Blade sheared the pointed end off his spear. A reminder. His own flesh would put up less resistance than that. Severing his spine would kill him, and no amount of Stormlight would undo that.

 

[Fatikis he/him]

Just now, Broseph said:

but to do so they would need to become a radiant they don't absorb storm light to do allomany the just open a pathway for investiture and surge could be powered by that but allomancy couldn't be powered stormlight

Huh? We know non-radiant that are already using Stormlight. ...also that line of thought doesn't really make sense. 

Quote

I'm not saying that Kaladin could go do it anywhere i'm saying that surgebinding is incredibly powerfull as a mistborn could use it or a returend or and elantrian 

Do you mean that stormlight is a powerful form of investiture? Otherwise what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Broseph]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

Quote

Kaladin pulled back a hair too slowly, and the Blade sheared the pointed end off his spear. A reminder. His own flesh would put up less resistance than that. Severing his spine would kill him, and no amount of Stormlight would undo that.

Fair enough, but Then I doubt a fullborn could heal from that either meaning and it means that shardblades are even more deadly that I previously stated so that kind of proves my point

 

[Broseph]

2 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Do you mean that stormlight is a powerful form of investiture? Otherwise what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense.

What im trying to say is that any surgebinding is probably the most powerfull form of investiture as it can be used basicaly anywhere like allomancy and hemalurgy but has mutch larger 1 hit potential and the only pre-requisite is obeying a certain oath, rather than a genetic component 

[Weltall]

Broseph, would you mind not double-posting please? It clutters up the board.

48 minutes ago, Broseph said:

What metal would they use? (dont know that mutch mistborn)

but im pretty sure plate and blade + surges could get them close enough to get a kill shot and they could use gold to recover cuase similar to surgebinder unless you have stormlight currently inside you / burning gold its a 1 hit K.O

Fullborn (a non-canon term but we don't have a more elegant one) can naturally hack two of Scadrial's magic systems to produce staggeringly powerful effects. For example, compounding the effects of steel to move faster than the human eye can follow, a Surgebinder isn't going to be able to get close without the fullborn allowing it. Or compounding gold to heal from ludicrous amounts of damage; We see a gold compounder survive dynamite exploding in his hand repeatedly and even shooting himself in the face with a shotgun, just to show off. Compounded zinc lets you think so fast that you can mentally run through every possible option for resolving a situation in less time than it takes someone else to finish saying a word and compounded pewter makes you the Incredible Hulk. And bear in mind that every single one of these abilities is independent, while Surgebinders rely on Stormlight for almost everything.

And then there's atium, which in allomancy lets you see what other people are going to do in the near future and speeds up your mind and body to be able to react appropriately. On its own, it's pretty much an 'I win' button because you will always know where the Surgebinder is going to be and what they're going to do, and be able to react in time to avoid them and land a killing blow yourself. Atium is technically beatable but generally this requires either knowing how it works and thus how to counter it, outlasting it or having some form of future-sight of your own which will throw it off. The only thing we've seen in SA that comes close is Renarin's future-sight and it's not nearly as controllable as atium.

So yeah, there's very good reasons why someone who has the full slate of allomantic and feruchemical powers is pretty much an unstoppable god.

Quote

Fair enough, but Then I doubt a fullborn could heal from that either meaning and it means that shardblades are even more deadly that I previously stated so that kind of proves my point

As I mentioned, getting close enough to hit a fullborn with a Shardblade is inherently problematic and a sufficiently charged metalmind (which a fullborn is going to have several of) can block Shardblades. Brandon hasn't canonized whether a Bloodmaker (someone with only F-Gold) could heal a Shardblade wound as it's happening but he's indicated that they should be able to heal from non-fatal ones just fine. Now factor in someone who's actively healing using F-Gold all the time, so any damage you do is being healed over as it's being inflicted.

Quote

What im trying to say is that any surgebinding is probably the most powerfull form of investiture as it can be used basicaly anywhere like allomancy and hemalurgy but has mutch larger 1 hit potential and the only pre-requisite is obeying a certain oath, rather than a genetic component 

You're conflating ease of access to the magic and what you can do with it. In the former sense, neither magic is 'easy'. You need the sDNA component for Scadrian magic and you need a spren to actively choose you and go through the whole sequence of Ideals before fully coming into your power as a Surgebinder. Brandon has even said that the Nahel Bond is one of the hardest systems to access and that you can't cheat your way into it with various hacks we've seen like hemalurgy or Forgery.

Also, there's a way to temporarily give anyone the power of a fullborn and while we don't know if it can be replicated, there's a more economical way of giving anyone a small selection of allomantic and/or feruchemical powers. This is no doubt going to be revolutionary in future books.

Also, the Metallic Arts are much easier to use 'basically anywhere'. All you need is the right metals and they can come from anywhere in the Cosmere. By contrast, Stormlight is only found on Roshar and it evaporates away quickly so it's not nearly as easy to keep up your power source. And actually getting offworld is difficult because the spren is tied to Roshar's Cognitive region.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Weltall

[RShara she/her]

11 minutes ago, Broseph said:

Quote

Kaladin pulled back a hair too slowly, and the Blade sheared the pointed end off his spear. A reminder. His own flesh would put up less resistance than that. Severing his spine would kill him, and no amount of Stormlight would undo that.

Fair enough, but Then I doubt a fullborn could heal from that either meaning and it means that shardblades are even more deadly that I previously stated so that kind of proves my point

No, because we know a Fullborn can recover from beheadings, a la The Lord Ruler.  I think Miles mentions it a few times too.  Miles also survives being literally blown up. A Radiant can be killed by severing the spine or completely crushing the head. Double gold heals more powerfully than stormlight.

Atium doesn't need to last very long. You see the Shardblade coming, you avoid it, you pewter dash up, and sever the head with your enhanced strength.  You might need one or two slices if the person is wearing Shardplate, but it will crack and break under pewter-strength, and then the head is gone.

And a Fullborn...what Weltall said.  There's just no winning against a fullborn with access to all the metals.

And Allomancy is extremely portable. Any planet's metal, or even soulcast metal, will work.  Stormlight will evaporate or leak unless you have a lot of perfect gems on you, and trying to get other types of investiture to power surgebinding is iffy at best. It most definitely does not work anywhere, and would need knowledge and skill (if then) to power it with something else.

Edited April 24, 2018 by RShara

[Tador]

just to give my two cents, I don't know why people always have to throw fullborn's at these problems. 

A ) all you need for the speed is just steel feruchemy, in shadows of self that's all bleeder has and she starts a fight by firing 4 or 5 shots from different places practically simultaneously, the compounding just means you don't run out, but by the point a well prepared steelrunner has run out of speed if you haven't won the fight you won't anyway 

B ) Wax could probably beat a shardbearer, hell all you need to be able to do is shoot an aluminium bullet through the eyepiece (yes I am aware that this is difficult at best, but scadrians have the technology, and at that point you don't even need any investiture, just aluminium alloy bullets), and Wax has all the aiming skills and the ability to play keep away until he lands a shot 

[Broseph]

49 minutes ago, RShara said:

No, because we know a Fullborn can recover from beheadings

Beheading sure , having your soul seperated however is a slightly dififfrent story

 

5 minutes ago, Tador said:

B ) Wax could probably beat a shardbearer, hell all you need to be able to do is shoot an aluminium bullet through the eyepiece (yes I am aware that this is difficult at best, but scadrians have the technology, and at that point you don't even need any investiture, just aluminium alloy bullets), and Wax has all the aiming skills and the ability to play keep away until he lands a shot 

Fair enough but but in mind what im saying is that wax could be the shardbearer and fuel his surges through allomancy but allomancy could not be fueled by stormlight

[Tador]

um I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, at all. Wax isn't a surgebinder, and allomancy probably could be fueled by stormlight, it would just take a lot of working out, and in the end would just be easier to carry around a few small vials of metal 

[RShara she/her]

5 minutes ago, Broseph said:

Beheading sure , having your soul seperated however is a slightly dififfrent story

How are you separating the soul from the body?

[Broseph]

1 minute ago, Tador said:

um I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, at all. Wax isn't a surgebinder, and allomancy probably could be fueled by stormlight, it would just take a lot of working out, and in the end would just be easier to carry around a few small vials of metal 

What I mean is that what makes surgebinding so god is that you can use it anywhere gain a one shot kill partial invulnerability and a  one shot kill

Also metal n mistborn acts as a filter that lets investiture in from the spiritual realm to create an a effect, that effect wouldn't happen if it was raw investiture i.e stormlight but the investiture let in by allomancy could fuel surges

[Broseph]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

How are you separating the soul from the body?

Thats literally what a shardblade does, its why people eyes burn when u kil them with it