[OB] Radiant Armor

[SteelFire he/him]

So how do Radiants get their Shardplate, like seen in Dalinar's visions?  Well in the Oathbringer Chapter 86 it says that, "...I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor..."  This passage is basically saying that Radiants do get the armor, when or soon after they swear the 4th Ideal of their respective order.  So how does this work.  In The Words of Radiance, during Adolin's duel against 4 shardbearers Kaladin jumps in and eventually takes one of the helms of said shardbearer.  Throughout the fight Kaladin discovers that he has lost most of his stormlight at an alarming rate.  He observes that the helm seems to be sucking the stormlight out of it to repair it self.  This poses a problem as to fight in shardplate you would give up your stormlight and render yourself unable to perform lashings, as well as other points of power of the radiants.  A reasonable theory is that the shardplates lost their original power to work in tandem with lashings upon the fall of the radiants.

 

Tell me what you think down below!

[RShara she/her]

I'm not entirely sure what your first question is (how does this work), but in answer to the scene with the helm...

Remember that the helm was already badly cracked and leaking, and you can fix Shardblade by feeding it stormlight.  Generally this comes from gems, but a Radiant will work too.

Also, the helm was from a suit of "dead" Shardplate.  Radiant Shardplate is going to be as different from that as live spren Blades are different from dead Blades.  Needing less stormlight, and not breaking/cracking are likely two differences between them.

[EddyJ he/him]

Unfortunately, I haven’t learned the little trick that lets you insert WoBs all nice-looking, but here’s one that implies that when you get your Blade (and Plate by association) can vary from order to order (in other words, it’s not always on the 4th Oath). 

Questioner

Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

In most orders, yes.

Questioner

What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, um... you will find out more.

———————————————

As for your theory about how Shardplate would function differently on a live Radiant who owns it, I’m betting it wouldn’t suck Stormlight, but rather be powered by some kind of spren, which were later replaced by the gemstone/fabrials currently in the Plate  I could be totally wrong about that though.

source

 

[Weltall]

'Living' Shardplate (however it works) probably doesn't drain Stormlight to the same extent that the currently existing suits do, in the same way that Radiants are more efficient with their Surgebinding than anyone using an Honorblade. Plate can interfere with Surges because it's Invested but it's apparent from Dalinar's visions that this doesn't apply to a Radiant's own Surgebinding. This is an old WoB but it's illustrative:

Quote

PricklyBear

Is there a functional/structural difference between modern-day Shardplate and the stuff the Radiants wore? Did the Radiants have to use infused gems to keep their suits going or could they just 'breathe in' Stormlight and feed the suit off of their 'inhaled' reserves?

Brandon Sanderson

Something is different. You will find out what.

source

 

58 minutes ago, EddyJ said:

Unfortunately, I haven’t learned the little trick that lets you insert WoBs all nice-looking

For Arcanum, left-click on the 'Copy' button next to the WoB, then on the board you just create an empty Quote tag and paste it in, the formatting will all be preserved.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Weltall

[EddyJ he/him]

Cool! Thanks!

[Kidpen he/him]

I personally think each order has a different oath. Shallan is at four and does not have Shardplate. I also think Lightweavers just get it at one. Either this or that she killed her spren, and they sent a new one. Kind of in line with Pattern's one comment about "they will send a new one." 

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, Kidpen said:

I personally think each order has a different oath. Shallan is at four and does not have Shardplate. I also think Lightweavers just get it at one. Either this or that she killed her spren, and they sent a new one. Kind of in line with Pattern's one comment about "they will send a new one." 

Yeah but Shallan is also a hot mess, and is in deep denial about her fourth Truth, so she's not the best example   But yeah, it could be that different orders get theirs at different times.

[Weltall]

23 minutes ago, RShara said:

But yeah, it could be that different orders get theirs at different times.

Quite likely, since we know that Blades aren't always obtained with the Third Ideal it would make sense for Plate to be different as well.

EDIT: It belatedly occurs to me that this was already in EddyJ's post. Whoops. xD

Edited April 18, 2018 by Weltall

[RShara she/her]

5 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Quite likely, since we know that Blades aren't always obtained with the Third Ideal it would make sense for Plate to be different as well.

Yep.

[Bort he/him]

9 hours ago, Kidpen said:

I personally think each order has a different oath. Shallan is at four and does not have Shardplate. I also think Lightweavers just get it at one. Either this or that she killed her spren, and they sent a new one. Kind of in line with Pattern's one comment about "they will send a new one." 

Remember Thaylan City. Radiant wore Plate, and she was Shallan's persona that had accepted what they needed in order to be, well, radiant.

So, illusion or real Plate? I think it might be real. 

[RShara she/her]

7 hours ago, Bort said:

Remember Thaylan City. Radiant wore Plate, and she was Shallan's persona that had accepted what they needed in order to be, well, radiant.

So, illusion or real Plate? I think it might be real. 

I think it was illusion, because I feel like Jasnah would have said something if it had been real.  Jasnah made a point of asking Shallan if she even had her Plate yet earlier.  So seeing her accomplish this should have provoked a response.

[Bort he/him]

37 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think it was illusion, because I feel like Jasnah would have said something if it had been real.  Jasnah made a point of asking Shallan if she even had her Plate yet earlier.  So seeing her accomplish this should have provoked a response.

Maybe. By the time Jasnah meets up with her though,  Shallan is knackered from the battle and may no longer be in the Plate. Don't forget also, Shallan was Radiant by that point too.

[RShara she/her]

But the basis of the argument is that Radiant is the one that was Shallan at the time, and Radiant wore Shardplate.  Iirc, Radiant looks almost exactly like Shallan, only the hair is coifed and she's wearing armor.  So if Radiant wasn't wearing Shardplate at the time, that sort of collapses the whole thing, doesn't it?

Edited April 19, 2018 by RShara

[Ryder]

18 hours ago, Weltall said:

Quite likely, since we know that Blades aren't always obtained with the Third Ideal it would make sense for Plate to be different as well.

EDIT: It belatedly occurs to me that this was already in EddyJ's post. Whoops. xD

There's also some precedent for this with accessing the surges too.  Kaladin is able to use both Gravitation and Adhesion pretty consistently after saying his second oath, and Lift is able to use both the Edgedancer surges after saying her second oath.  Nale tells Szeth however that Skybreakers only get access to Division after their third oath.  I assume Skybreakers also get their sword after the third oath, but I can't remember if that's mentioned explicitly or not.

[Leyrann]

18 hours ago, Kidpen said:

I personally think each order has a different oath. Shallan is at four and does not have Shardplate. I also think Lightweavers just get it at one. Either this or that she killed her spren, and they sent a new one. Kind of in line with Pattern's one comment about "they will send a new one." 

From OB (bolded mine):

Quote

Shallan gasped. Forming from the mist was... was Veil? With long straight black hair, white clothing, brown eyes. Wiser than Shallan - and more focused. Capable of working on small pieces when Shallan grew overwhelmed by the large scale of her work.

Another hand took Shallan's on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair. Reserved and cautious. She nodded to Shallan with a steady, determined look.

 

[Kidpen he/him]

8 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

From OB (bolded mine):

 

We talked about this. That may be an illusion.

[Leyrann]

6 minutes ago, Kidpen said:

We talked about this. That may be an illusion.

Brandon has said that Veil and Radiant are versions of Shallan though, not made-up entities. Considering they actually have physical form here, I doubt it.

Also, Brandon weaved this in very nicely (I actually totally missed it until it got pointed out on the forum), and we do know Shallan is one step higher than Kaladin, so at 4/5:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156-words-of-radiance-lexington-signing/#e2845

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Leyrann

[RShara she/her]

Right, the debate is whether the Shardplate is an illusion or was really there, and whether Radiant was wearing it when Jasnah came up.

 

28 minutes ago, Ryder said:

Nale tells Szeth however that Skybreakers only get access to Division after their third oath.

He doesn't say that they only get access to Division after the Third Oath.  He says they will be taught how to use Division after their Third Oath.  I'm pretty sure they can already use Division, they just aren't trained in it because it's more dangerous; the Skybreakers are very rigid and require strict obedience.

Quote

“The Third Ideal, the Ideal of Dedication, requires you to have first bonded a highspren. Once you have, you swear to dedicate yourself to a greater truth—a code to follow. Upon achieving this, you will be taught Division, the second—and more dangerous—of the Surges we practice.”

 

[Bort he/him]

21 hours ago, RShara said:

But the basis of the argument is that Radiant is the one that was Shallan at the time, and Radiant wore Shardplate.  Iirc, Radiant looks almost exactly like Shallan, only the hair is coifed and she's wearing armor.  So if Radiant wasn't wearing Shardplate at the time, that sort of collapses the whole thing, doesn't it?

It might, it might not. I'll admit it raises questions, but at the same time, when Lift goes for a bit of illusionary support she has to ask Shallan to stop hugging herself, which makes me wonder which of the three Shallans were really present, and which were in her head.

Obviously, all three were there when Jasnah turned up, but I think it is a bit ambiguous which of the three Shallan actually was before then. That is what makes me wonder if Shallan does have Plate, but her head-state means she can only access it as Radiant.

I'll admit, you are probably right, and it was all an illusion, but there are enough questions about Shallan and how she has compartmentalized everything in her head that makes me unsure about just accepting that conclusion.

[Wandering Investor]

21 hours ago, RShara said:

He doesn't say that they only get access to Division after the Third Oath.  He says they will be taught how to use Division after their Third Oath.  I'm pretty sure they can already use Division, they just aren't trained in it because it's more dangerous; the Skybreakers are very rigid and require strict obedience.

At the end of Oathbringer, Nale says Szeth now has access to Division and should be careful with it. That indicates that the 3rd oath unlocks the power, not just that that's when it is taught. 

 

As for the Shallan thing, we have the viewpoint from Shallan of Radiant appearing with shardplate. Unless Shallan can remotely command her shardplate to appear on an illusion, it is much more likely that the shardplate was an illusion. 

 

Dalinar's vision shows the Windrunner, in his armor, lashing his female companion. Wearing the armor stops other from lashing you, not you from lashing others, unless they also have armor. That's why his companion had to dismiss her armor for the flight, but he could keep wearing his.

[RShara she/her]

56 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

At the end of Oathbringer, Nale says Szeth now has access to Division and should be careful with it. That indicates that the 3rd oath unlocks the power, not just that that's when it is taught.

And I still think it's because of the heavily regimented way that Skybreakers advance and use their powers.  Technically he could use it at any time, but because of policy and rules, he wasn't allowed to use it.  It doesn't make sense any other way, since Shallan, Kaladin, Lift, and Dalinar have all been able to use both surges right away.

[Wandering Investor]

13 minutes ago, RShara said:

And I still think it's because of the heavily regimented way that Skybreakers advance and use their powers.  Technically he could use it at any time, but because of policy and rules, he wasn't allowed to use it.  It doesn't make sense any other way, since Shallan, Kaladin, Lift, and Dalinar have all been able to use both surges right away.

Szeth was never instructed to not use the power, only told it would be taught after the third Ideal.

Kaladin is the only Radiant observed to use both surges before the second Ideal. Lift and Dalinar maybe have been able to, but were never shown to use both surges before the second Ideal. We do not know whether Shallan was able to soulcast as a child, and as I understand it, is already at Ideal 3, maybe 2, when she soulcast in WoK. 

And even with Kaladin, he was able to create vacuums, but was only recently shown to create high-pressure areas following his third Ideal. It would make sense that, along with Blades and Plate, different surges, and even abilities within the surges, are unlocked at different Ideals for different orders.

[RShara she/her]

20 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Szeth was never instructed to not use the power, only told it would be taught after the third Ideal.

Kaladin is the only Radiant observed to use both surges before the second Ideal. Lift and Dalinar maybe have been able to, but were never shown to use both surges before the second Ideal. We do not know whether Shallan was able to soulcast as a child, and as I understand it, is already at Ideal 3, maybe 2, when she soulcast in WoK. 

And even with Kaladin, he was able to create vacuums, but was only recently shown to create high-pressure areas following his third Ideal. It would make sense that, along with Blades and Plate, different surges, and even abilities within the surges, are unlocked at different Ideals for different orders.

Lift used both Progression and Abrasion before the second Ideal.  She used Growth to make seeds grow to open the window in Azir, and Wyndle said she could use Regrowth with practice and food.  Shallan was able to soulcast and lightweave, she soulcast the goblet right when she said the Second. Dalinar swore the first two Ideals together, so it's impossible to say. I was referring to the Third Ideal, not the Second, above, but the point stands either way.

Kaladin didn't even realize he could fly and such until he saw Szeth do it. I think it's more a matter of perception and experimentation than a hard limit.

Yes, I agree that the further you progress, the more control and ability you have with the surges.  But I don't think there's a limitation on when you can start using them.

 

Also, remember that Szeth was actually a Skybreaker Squire up until he swore the Third Ideal.  There's no hint that the Squires can't use both surges.

Edited April 20, 2018 by RShara

[Wandering Investor]

35 minutes ago, RShara said:

Lift used both Progression and Abrasion before the second Ideal.  She used Growth to make seeds grow to open the window in Azir, and Wyndle said she could use Regrowth with practice and food.  Shallan was able to soulcast and lightweave, she soulcast the goblet right when she said the Second. Dalinar swore the first two Ideals together, so it's impossible to say. I was referring to the Third Ideal, not the Second, above, but the point stands either way.

Kaladin didn't even realize he could fly and such until he saw Szeth do it. I think it's more a matter of perception and experimentation than a hard limit.

Yes, I agree that the further you progress, the more control and ability you have with the surges.  But I don't think there's a limitation on when you can start using them.

 

Also, remember that Szeth was actually a Skybreaker Squire up until he swore the Third Ideal.  There's no hint that the Squires can't use both surges.

I forgot about the seeds, so Lift was shown using progression before the second. 

Szeth had to bond the Highspren before his third oath, so at some point he was no longer a squire but a full Radiant(unless you can be both). As for Shallan, I could be wrong but I was under the impression that "I'm terrified" and "I killed my father" were questionable as to whether they were oaths or not, as Shallan may have said several during her childhood.

There's no hint that all squires gain both surges. Windrunner squires have been shown to use both, but neither skybreaker nor lightweaver squires have been observed using both. Also, the Skybreaker masters clearly indicate that the surge of gravitation cannot be accessed in till the second Ideal. This may only apply to certain squires, but does show one instance of surges locked behind Ideals.

[RShara she/her]

Just now, Wandering Investor said:

There's no hint that all squires gain both surges. Windrunner squires have been shown to use both, but neither skybreaker nor lightweaver squires have been observed using both. Also, the Skybreaker masters clearly indicate that the surge of gravitation cannot be accessed in till the second Ideal. This may only apply to certain squires, but does show one instance of surges locked behind Ideals.

We've only seen two types of Squires so far that have spent any significant amount of time with their powers (So not counting Vathah, who we see able to Lightweave badly for about 2 minutes).  Windrunners, who do get both surges, and Skybreakers.

Novice Skybreakers neither have spren nor are accepted as a Squire when they "swear" the first Ideal, which is why they can't access any surges.  A "natural" Skybreaker with a spren should be able to access the surge before even swearing the First Ideal.  Once they are accepted as a Squire, they are then able to take advantage of surges.  It's not the Ideal but the fact that a full Skybreaker is willing to accept them that grants them the surges.

This is literally an example of what I mean by Skybreakers being heavily structured.

There was only a passage of maybe a week or two between Szeth swearing the Second Ideal and the Third Ideal, so I don't know if it would have been enough time to fully bond the spren before swearing the Third Ideal.