(OB) House Sadeas - Eternally Antagonistic?

[Toaster Retribution]

Torol Sadeas was one of the biggest cremlings on Roshar, and he is probably one of the most hated characters in the community. His soldiers are often depicted as bad too: filthy, untidy, and so on. One of them beats up a prostitute in WoK. Then Sadeas dies, and is succeeded by his manipulative wife, as well as by Amaram, another hot contender for the title of "most despised person in Stormlight". Under Amaram and Ialai, the Sadeas house are troublemakers who eventually sideswitches to Odium. Amaram is one of the major obstacles in the Thaylen battle, and almost kills Kaladin before dying. Afterwards, Ialai leaves Urithiru.

What I'm thinking is: will House Sadeas always be villains? Will they always be symbols of the bad Alethi, the anti-Kholins? Right now, they feel like the Slytherins of Stormlight? Is anyone else bothered by this?

[Niteshado]

I think so. 

It would be neat to see them shuffled into the rest of the army and maybe turn around, but at this point all of Sadeas men seem bad. As well as when the army turned at the Battle of Thaylen, some of the humans actually jumped onto the Parshman boats and left. 

Dalinar makes a comment about this, about wondering if the last Knight Radiants were fighting humans that went to the enemy as well. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Niteshado

[Llarimar]

I was very disappointed by the direction of house Sadeas in Oathbringer in general.  I think it would have been really cool for Ialai to gradually become a more important character - a reluctant ally with Dalinar, a sort of hero-villain with her own motives, but who still brings a powerful voice at the table.  I was disappointed first of all, that Sadeas's death was really brushed over (although we may hear more about it in the next book), and then by the fact that Ialai, who I find to be very intriguing (and very unique for a female Sanderson character), deferred power to Amaram.  This is also all a part of the whole debacle of Amaram's failed character development, which a lot of people were upset by - I feel like having Amaram take control of house Sadeas was sort of just a way to get rid of him plot-wise and give him something to do.  And I was also disappointed by the fact that Ialai was not as much of a sharp, cunning manipulator after Sadeas's death - for example, when she makes a clumsy comment during a diplomatic meeting and Navani gets annoyed with her.

In the future books, I would like for:

House Sadeas to fill less of a single-dimensional villain role.

Ialai to become a more important, nuanced character.

Sadeas's death to be more fully addressed, with possible repercussions for Adolin.

[Subvisual Haze]

I just hope they're done.  "House Sadeas", or what remains, are exiled rulers of an enemy occupied territory.  They and their soldiers have been humiliated and shamed in the eyes of everyone after the Thaylen City battle.  What army they did command has almost certainly been taken away from them.

There's no logical reason for them to continue in the plot as important adversaries.  They were Act 1 Enemies that our heroes have since outclassed.  Their entire powerbase has been removed, there is no legitimacy backing up their continued claim to power.  Beyond character-plot conservation tropes, they should probably just fade away.

I do think it would be a cool plotline moving forward if somehow Kaladin was assigned to rehabilitate the remnants of that army though.  Kind of showing the contrast between what good leadership and bad leadership can produce in a large group.

[Toaster Retribution]

22 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

think it would be a cool plotline moving forward if somehow Kaladin was assigned to rehabilitate the remnants of that army though.  Kind of showing the contrast between what good leadership and bad leadership can produce in a large group.

I can see the appeal with this, but I don't think it would develop Kaladin as a character much, and I also feel that we have seen him leading groups of people already, and making them better. We saw it with Bridge 4, and again with the parsh in OB. 

 

23 hours ago, Niteshado said:

Dalinar makes a comment about this, about wondering if the last Knight Radiants were fighting humans that went to the enemy as well. 

I had forgotten this. I wonder what the dynamic in Odiums army will look like with Listeners, Voidbringers, evil spren, normal humans, the Diagramists, Skybreakers and a law-obsessed Herald in there. Hope we get a lot of Moash and Venli POVs in book 4.

[Leyrann]

35 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I can see the appeal with this, but I don't think it would develop Kaladin as a character much, and I also feel that we have seen him leading groups of people already, and making them better. We saw it with Bridge 4, and again with the parsh in OB. 

So let him do it off-screen. Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar have to step back at some point. There's no shame in Kaladin not getting PoVs for a few parts in the next book, he'll still have time for the character development needed for the Fourth Ideal.

[hypatia]

Personally I would like to know more about this heir - age, his parents, is he dead or alive...

Will he be a part of the next generation (and I really think it boring if he ends up as the standard Sadean villain).

Ialai - that's probably more the thing in the first arc.

Here it depends upon a question - was she part of Amaram's decision to fight for Odium or not?

For me plotting and planing with her husband to get the power in Alethkar isn't exactly the same as to submit everything - her land, her army - to the enemy.

I wouldn't invite her to tea, but I think it possible for her to make a truce with Dalinar, if only to get a country back to start the powerplay anew.

[Toaster Retribution]

46 minutes ago, hypatia said:

depends upon a question - was she part of Amaram's decision to fight for Odium or not?

Amaram fought for Odium after breaking under his guilt and shame. I doubt he ran around and told people of it. Ialai was most likely unaware. Amaram isn't dumb. He probably realizes that she can't be trusted, just as Mraize did.

@Leyrann Point. I was mostly explaining why I don't think it should be a major on-screen arc for Kaladin. When it comes to him not appearing in a few parts, I'm all game for that. Kaladin worked better in Oathbringer than in WoR, and that was because he got less page time, and didn't take over the story. So I am okay with him working with Sadeas soldiers as an off-screen arc.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[hypatia]

@Toaster Retribution

I thought the same - Ialai was unaware.

But from her side it was Amaram who was untrustworthy - all he had - his title, his status, his soldiers - were only his, because she had given him the power.

Now she has lost the remaining power because of his actions - even without Rock Amaram hadn't survived, Ialai had killed him herself.

All of this is possibly again the motive of Gavilar - Odium is the common enemy like the awakened Parshmen - this can end in unity.

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, hypatia said:

Now she has lost the remaining power because of his actions - even without Rock Amaram hadn't survived, Ialai had killed him herself.

I doubt she had. Yelig-nar would have eaten him far before she got her chance (also, she would have to assassinate him. Amaram would obviously destroy her in a 1vs1 fight).

[Angsos]

I think she should reappear as a complex character because right we have Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin and the others are the good guys for the sake of good. Ialai could be shown as the complex character who maybe doesn't get to good but moves close by the end 47 million years away. Hurry Up Brandon

 

[Wandering Investor]

House Sadeas is in an interesting spot narratively. They were an interesting antagonist to Dalinar, because of how they used to be friends and turned enemies, and that was a source of frustration that Dalinar couldn't just force people to unite, an important part to his story. But that also means that Ialai is set in her ways, and having her become an ally would have to be handled well or it would feel cheap. Changing leadership would be possible, but the story so far hasn't had time to focus on lesser house members, and time spent doing in the next book would detract from other happenings.

That said, this book in some ways incorporates a war of Ideologies, so spending time on converting Ialai or a replacement might further the story, showing team Dalinar uniting in spite of differences. Plus the year time gap between books 3 and 4 could take care of some of the boring stuff.