Needing advice on how to build a successful magic system

[Elandera she/her]

I've read through some past threads regarding creating magic systems, but they were almost too specific for what I needed. So here are my questions: 

- What elements/themes do your favorite magic systems contain?

- What types of limits do those systems have (to keep people from becoming all-powerful)?

- What makes a magic system believable to you? 

I started creating a system based on different gemstones (different types unlock different kinds of magic, i.e. elemental, healing, arcane, etc.), but I kept running up against walls in making it work right. 

I'm not looking for direct advice about my system-in-development (though I wouldn't say no), just some ideas of what readers and other writers find works for them.

[Oversleep]

Have you read Sanderson's Laws or have you watched his lectures on worldbuilding magic?

Worldbuilding is more of an art and not a science (even if we try to worldbuild a science!). Certainly having read or watched many different takes on magic systems would improve your instincts, both to what you should and shouldn't do. (as it is with pretty much everything, not only magic systems)

Edited March 28, 2018 by Oversleep

[Elandera she/her]

5 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Have you read Sanderson's Laws or have you watched his lectures on worldbuilding magic?

Unfortunately, no. I hadn't heard of them until today. They're definitely high on my list now.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Elandera

[Yezrien]

2 hours ago, Elandera said:

Unfortunately, no. I hadn't heard of them until today. They're definitely high on my list now.

Brandon's three laws are a great place to start. Try the coppermind page on them. It's a good summary. Based on your opening post, I suspect you already understand the First Law, but the Second and Third are just as important.

Feel free to tell us more about the system you're working on. You've come to a place where magic systems are always welcome.

[SilverTiger she/her]

Well, to answer some of your questions:

1. My favorite magic systems are often broad in capability (can do a lot), but limited in implementation (it is possible to do X, but requires significant effort/knowledge). Magic is something that requires focus, concentration, practice. And working magic is not effortless: requires energy from wielder. [This is really my opinion, it might not help you at all].

2. Limits would be: you need to know/understand the spells/however-the-magic-works-> can't just fumble your way through. Also, the wielder only has so much energy (or can handle so much energy) to use for working magic.

3. What makes the magic system believable is how it is explained. If there is a somewhat reasonable explanation to it, then I can suspend my disbelief. If the explanation is, "There's magic and it does stuff", then it isn't believable.

I hope this helps you some, and good luck on your worldbuilding! I'm also currently designing a world, and it is really complicated.

P.S. Since your're making a magic system with gemstones significant to it, I recommend finding a book about different kinds of gemstones. There's a lot of obscure ones out there that you could use.

P.P.S. I once made a huge list of gemstones for a worldbuilding project of my sister's. I'd be glad to post it here. It has a lot of obscure gemstones on it, along with "magical affinities" (the idea was that gemstones could store/hold different spells, and had affinities for which kinds of spells they held best). Even if the magical parts doesn't help, just the list of possible gems you could use might.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

I'll try and answer the questions, though I am warning you, My answers may be slightly unconventional.

1. My top three favorite magic systems, Awakening, AonDor and The One Power, rely on knowledge to do more things. What you can do with those powers rely primarily on the amount of education you have on the subject. Secondarily, they rely on raw power, this allows interesting dynamics where people who are more powerful but less experienced, can beat those who are more experienced but less powerful. and vice versa.

2. I actually prefer systems where people can become all powerful/gods. So long as it remains a minority who become gods, and that it actually makes sense how they got there. The god king was a good example, and Rand al'Thor. In terms of limitations on the system, however, I have liked time constraints, and limited energy restraints. For example, in awakening, you had a limited number of breaths, and if you weren't prepared for a fight, you were going to lose. You had to issue verbal commands, and were limited by your reaction time and ability to verbalize under pressure. Elantris, you need to draw aons quickly in a battle to be effective. 

3. I don't think that I have ever had my suspension of disbelieve broken. When I read, I assume that whatever happens makes sense in that world. That being said, these are things that have annoyed me about magic systems in the past.

With any magic system that the plot relies heavily on, so all of BS's books, the system IMO, needs to make sense. Consistency and well explained rules are needed. If the system appears like it does in Tolkien's works, you don't need to explain it nearly as much, its much more off to the side and less involved in the plot of the story. This, I believe is one of brandons rules of magic.

This was one thing that really bugged me in the Percy Jackson series. Why was he not practicing? Why the frick was he not training to be able to control water, or master his powers? It felt like he was ignoring a major advantage he had over others. If there was a consequence for practicing, it would make sense, Like the dark ones taint in WoT. Or running out of metals/stormlight and having a limited supply. but in Percy Jackson, he could have spent most of the day practicing. That isn't consistent and it doesn't make sense.

 

[Elandera she/her]

2 hours ago, SilverTiger said:

 P.P.S. I once made a huge list of gemstones for a worldbuilding project of my sister's. I'd be glad to post it here. It has a lot of obscure gemstones on it, along with "magical affinities" (the idea was that gemstones could store/hold different spells, and had affinities for which kinds of spells they held best). Even if the magical parts doesn't help, just the list of possible gems you could use might.

That would be awesome! I did a little research into more obscure stones, but I'll accept any help. Thanks!

[SilverTiger she/her]

Here it is! Spoilered for length:

Spoiler

• 1. All gemstones are valued for their beauty, but they are also valued for their magical abilities as well. Any gemstone can anchor a spell or store energy, but different gemstones have different affinities, which make them more useful for certain spells. As such, over the years, scholars and mages have recorded which gemstones work best for which spells and magics, eventually creating books on the topic. (If there is a second name in parentheses, then that is the gem's name in Mythos)
  2. Highly Precious Gems:
     1. Diamond- diamonds are the hardest of all gemstones, and come in a broad variety of color. However, the most valued variety is the colorless variety. They are translucent gemstones that are often cut in facets. They are prized for their ability to anchor almost any spell, and to store and amplify power.
     2. Sapphire- sapphire is a translucent blue gemstone that is normally faceted. It is valued for elemental magic with water, both salt and fresh, as well as for calm and chill. It is also useful for purity and cleanliness spells.
        1. Star Sapphires- vastly more powerful than normal sapphires, they are normally cut en cabochon instead and may appear opaque.
     3. Ruby- ruby is a translucent red gemstone, similar to sapphire, that is similarly normally faceted. It is valued for elemental magic with fire, as well as for anger and passion. They can also be used to resist poison.
        1. Star Rubies- as with star sapphires, they are much more powerful than normal rubies. Again, they are normally cut en cabochon and may appear opaque.
  3. Beryls:
     1. Emerald- emerald is a translucent bright-green gemstone that is extremely valuable for both decorations and magic. Magically, it is prized for and spells of life, such as those of growth, healing, fertility, and youth.
     2. Aquamarine- a translucent blue-green gemstone, it is prized for spells concerning the sea and tides.
     3. Heliodor- a translucent yellow gemstone, it is prized for use in spell-lamps.
     4. Morganite (Aliador)- a translucent light pink gemstone, it is prized for spells of affection and attraction. It is rather useful in glamouries (in the absence of opal). It is named for its association with the Olyniran goddess Ealeinia.
  4. Quartz:
     1. Amethyst- a translucent deep-purple gemstone, it is valued for spells of clarity of the mind, storage of power (even more than other gemstones), wards against poison, and wards against spells of confusion and deception. It is also associated with electricity.
     2. Rose Quartz- a translucent pink variety of quartz, it is valued for spells of attraction, giddiness, and happiness.
     3. Milky Quartz- a translucent white variety of quartz, it is valued for scrying and settling the nerves.
     4. Smoky Quartz- a translucent black variety of quartz, it is useful for spells of confusion and deception.
     5. Citrine- a translucent yellow-brown gemstone, it is valued for spells involving justice, balance, and the reversal of effects of other spells.
     6. Phantom Quartz- a translucent variety of whitish quartz that has small air bubbles trapped in it. It is highly prized for elemental magic of the air, for magic involving ghosts, and for spells of conjuring mist, fog, and vapors.
  5. Other Precious Gems:
     1. Sunstone- a semi-translucent deep-orange gemstone that is valued very much for its use in spells that replicate sunlight and warmth.
     2. Moonstone- an opaque, shimmery white gemstone, is prized for spells involving trances, sleep, dreams, and the moon. It is most prized for spells of warding while in trances.
     3. Jade- jade is an opaque gemstone that comes in a variety of colors, but is most prized, and common, in a deep, bright green. It also comes in cream, lilac, pink, black, red, golden, and blue. All jade is useful for healing.
        1. Green jade is the most prized, as it is the best for healing and can heal anything equally well.
        2. Cream jade is good for mending broken bones and restoring teeth.
        3. Lilac jade is good for banishing delirium and helps heal concussions.
        4. Pink jade is good for ailments of the lungs and digestive system.
        5. Black jade is prized for dealing with injury and ailments caused by curses and violence. Conversely, it can also be used to destroy the immune system and devastate the body's ability to heal (it can be used to heal tumors).
        6. Red jade is good for curing venoms and poisons. It can also help heal tumors.
        7. Golden, or yellow, jade is good for healing diseases and boosting the immune system. It also soothes allergies.
        8. Blue jade is prized for its ability to heal disorders of the mind and for calming the body.
     4. Turquoise- turquoise is an opaque, sky-blue gemstone that is valued for spells involving weather, most especially weather at sea.
     5. Lapis Lazuli- an opaque gemstone that is the color of the night sky with flecks of white (thus resembling stars), it is magically prized for divination, astrology, and clairvoyance.
     6. Opal- an opaque gemstone that comes in a variety of colors, it is notable for its color-play effect. Magically, it is prized for hypnotism, mesmerism, telepathy and telempathy, as well as with geasi and glamourie. Different opals are valued for different things.
        1. Pearly opal, which has a white color scheme, is prized for spells of calming and entrancing.
        2. Fire opal, which has a red and orange color play, is useful for arousing powerful emotion and directing it.
        3. Water opal, which has a blue, green, and yellow color play, is useful for banishing emotion and opening the mind to receive thought.
        4. Rose opal, which has a pink and red color play, is useful for projecting and receiving emotion.
        5. Shadow opal, which has a black and dark blue color play, is useful for unnoticeability spells and for shutting or hiding from psychic gifts.
     7. Tanzanite (Arcanald)- a translucent gemstone of deep purple-blue coloration. It is prized magically for spells involving portals. It is named for its powerful, and important, arcane uses.
  6. Semiprecious Gems:
     1. Obsidian- obsidian is black volcanic glass that forms naturally. It can form very sharp edges. Snowflake obsidian, wherein  there are white, spherical inclusions in it, is also valuable. Normal obsidian is valued in magic for certain forms of scrying, for necromantic sight, for making knives and athames used in necromancy, and for making necromantic mirrors. Snowflake obsidian is useful for wards against necromancy.
     2. Hematite (Zarethin)- hematite is an opaque, pitch-black gemstone that is normally cut en cabochon. It is valued for enchantments to resist and dispel magic. It is named for the Elemental Circle's demonic goddess Zareseth.
     3. Spinel- a translucent gemstone that comes in a variety of colors. It is fairly common, and is useful (though not spectacular) for illusions and glamouries, as well as transformation.
     4. Chrysoberyl (Ranan)- a translucent gemstone that normally appears bright green but in special lighting appears bright red. It is a very hard gemstone, and is spectacularly useful for illusions, astral projection, and coercion.
     5. Azurite/malachite (Aquira)- an opaque gemstone, it is mostly deep blue (azurite) with circular, layered green inclusions (malachite). It is valued for use in spells involving freshwater, and also for the growth of water plants.
     6. Carnelian- an opaque orangey-red gemstone, it is valued for spells of heat, flames, and rage (mostly calming it).
     7. Onyx- an opaque gemstone usually black but occasionally black and white banded, it is treasured, in its black form, for a variety of necromantic spells, and the banded variety is prized for protection against necromancy, and to ward against the undead.
     8. Tourmaline- a translucent gemstone that comes in pink, red, black, blue, green, or clear. It is not spectacular at magic, but is used for truth spells.
        1. The green variety is used to help heal pathological liars.
        2. The pink variety reacts to and dispels illusion.
        3. The red variety forces the truth from the subject.
        4. The black variety breaks truth spells and prevents the truth from being spoken.
        5. The blue variety reacts to truth and identifies falsehoods.
        6. The clear variety can be substituted for any other variety for only slightly inferior effects.
     9. Peridot- a translucent light (almost yellowy) green gemstone, it is useful for spells concerning the growth and health of plants.
     10. Garnet- a translucent red gemstone, it comes in three varieties, each useful for a different purpose.
         1. Pyrope (common garnet)- brilliant red, it is useful for spells invoking unreasoning rage. It is more often used for decoration.
         2. Spessartine (flame garnet)- lighter red than pyrope, and occasionally tinged with orange, it can be used for spells of detecting and controlling rage. It is sometimes used for spells invoking heat.
         3. Almandine (dark garnet)- a gemstone so deep a red as to be nearly black, it is the most valuable magically speaking. It is prized for spells involving hatred. It is almost never used in decoration or jewelry.
     11. Topaz- a translucent gemstone that comes in golden-yellow, pink, blue, brown, and clear/colorless. While pink and blue (both are not particularly common, and not much prized for jewelry) are almost useless magically, the golden-yellow (the most common) and brown (rarest and most valuable) varieties are used for spells involving earth and the ground. The clear variety is used for clear thought, sight, and scrying.
  7. Organic Gems:
     1. Pearl- pearls are shimmery-white, spherical gems formed inside oysters. They are useful for a variety of spells involving the sea, most especially for spells of breathing underwater, as well as being used in illusions and glamourie. Black pearls are prized for their affinity for sea abysses.
     2. Mother-of-pearl- a shimmery blue to white substance that is gotten from the insides of pearl-forming shellfish, it is useful magically for enchantment and dreams.
     3. Amber- a semi-translucent amber colored gemstone that is formed from petrified tree sap. It is useful for spells of preservation.
     4. Jet- an opaque black gemstone formed from organic origins, it is valued for spells of darkness, sadness, despair, fear, terror, unnoticeability, and some necromancy (anchoring shades).

I would like to note that there are even more obscure ones, but this list gets a lot, all in one place (I literally went through a book on minerals for them). I also included descriptions of the gemstones: opaque/translucent, color, etc. This list was as much for me to keep all the different gems straight as to list magical affinities. I hope it helps someone.

[Elandera she/her]

@SilverTiger, that list is fantastic! Even just skimming through it has given me a few new ideas (especially with obsidian, since my antagonist's main goal is discovering effective necromancy).

[SilverTiger she/her]

10 hours ago, Elandera said:

@SilverTiger, that list is fantastic! Even just skimming through it has given me a few new ideas (especially with obsidian, since my antagonist's main goal is discovering effective necromancy).

You're welcome! The trick was to make sure that the different affinities were all slightly different- that way, one needs to know more than a few. The most precious gems (diamond, ruby, sapphire, etc.) are the most "powerful" (have the widest range of affinity), while the lesser-known ones are a bit more specialized. Also, I definitely suggest making your own list; your world probably has slightly different needs in magic. Another note: you might want to change the names of some of the gemstones, like Tanzanite and Morganite, to more natural names. I changed Morganite to Aliador, because heliador is a related gemstone and in-world Aliador is associated with the goddess of love/beauty Ealeinia.

Also, how much is magic known to the public? Does the populace know about the gemstones/affinities thing? If it is common knowledge, then there might be taboos against certain gemstones, such as dark garnet (used in spells involving hatred), black tourmaline (prevents the truth from being spoken, breaks truth spells), and opals (used for hypnotism and compulsion spells). Or whatever gems are used for those sorts of spells in your world.

Good luck!

[StrikerEZ he/him]

On 3/28/2018 at 1:30 PM, SilverTiger said:

Here it is! Spoilered for length:

  Reveal hidden contents

• 1. All gemstones are valued for their beauty, but they are also valued for their magical abilities as well. Any gemstone can anchor a spell or store energy, but different gemstones have different affinities, which make them more useful for certain spells. As such, over the years, scholars and mages have recorded which gemstones work best for which spells and magics, eventually creating books on the topic. (If there is a second name in parentheses, then that is the gem's name in Mythos)
  2. Highly Precious Gems:
     1. Diamond- diamonds are the hardest of all gemstones, and come in a broad variety of color. However, the most valued variety is the colorless variety. They are translucent gemstones that are often cut in facets. They are prized for their ability to anchor almost any spell, and to store and amplify power.
     2. Sapphire- sapphire is a translucent blue gemstone that is normally faceted. It is valued for elemental magic with water, both salt and fresh, as well as for calm and chill. It is also useful for purity and cleanliness spells.
        1. Star Sapphires- vastly more powerful than normal sapphires, they are normally cut en cabochon instead and may appear opaque.
     3. Ruby- ruby is a translucent red gemstone, similar to sapphire, that is similarly normally faceted. It is valued for elemental magic with fire, as well as for anger and passion. They can also be used to resist poison.
        1. Star Rubies- as with star sapphires, they are much more powerful than normal rubies. Again, they are normally cut en cabochon and may appear opaque.
  3. Beryls:
     1. Emerald- emerald is a translucent bright-green gemstone that is extremely valuable for both decorations and magic. Magically, it is prized for and spells of life, such as those of growth, healing, fertility, and youth.
     2. Aquamarine- a translucent blue-green gemstone, it is prized for spells concerning the sea and tides.
     3. Heliodor- a translucent yellow gemstone, it is prized for use in spell-lamps.
     4. Morganite (Aliador)- a translucent light pink gemstone, it is prized for spells of affection and attraction. It is rather useful in glamouries (in the absence of opal). It is named for its association with the Olyniran goddess Ealeinia.
  4. Quartz:
     1. Amethyst- a translucent deep-purple gemstone, it is valued for spells of clarity of the mind, storage of power (even more than other gemstones), wards against poison, and wards against spells of confusion and deception. It is also associated with electricity.
     2. Rose Quartz- a translucent pink variety of quartz, it is valued for spells of attraction, giddiness, and happiness.
     3. Milky Quartz- a translucent white variety of quartz, it is valued for scrying and settling the nerves.
     4. Smoky Quartz- a translucent black variety of quartz, it is useful for spells of confusion and deception.
     5. Citrine- a translucent yellow-brown gemstone, it is valued for spells involving justice, balance, and the reversal of effects of other spells.
     6. Phantom Quartz- a translucent variety of whitish quartz that has small air bubbles trapped in it. It is highly prized for elemental magic of the air, for magic involving ghosts, and for spells of conjuring mist, fog, and vapors.
  5. Other Precious Gems:
     1. Sunstone- a semi-translucent deep-orange gemstone that is valued very much for its use in spells that replicate sunlight and warmth.
     2. Moonstone- an opaque, shimmery white gemstone, is prized for spells involving trances, sleep, dreams, and the moon. It is most prized for spells of warding while in trances.
     3. Jade- jade is an opaque gemstone that comes in a variety of colors, but is most prized, and common, in a deep, bright green. It also comes in cream, lilac, pink, black, red, golden, and blue. All jade is useful for healing.
        1. Green jade is the most prized, as it is the best for healing and can heal anything equally well.
        2. Cream jade is good for mending broken bones and restoring teeth.
        3. Lilac jade is good for banishing delirium and helps heal concussions.
        4. Pink jade is good for ailments of the lungs and digestive system.
        5. Black jade is prized for dealing with injury and ailments caused by curses and violence. Conversely, it can also be used to destroy the immune system and devastate the body's ability to heal (it can be used to heal tumors).
        6. Red jade is good for curing venoms and poisons. It can also help heal tumors.
        7. Golden, or yellow, jade is good for healing diseases and boosting the immune system. It also soothes allergies.
        8. Blue jade is prized for its ability to heal disorders of the mind and for calming the body.
     4. Turquoise- turquoise is an opaque, sky-blue gemstone that is valued for spells involving weather, most especially weather at sea.
     5. Lapis Lazuli- an opaque gemstone that is the color of the night sky with flecks of white (thus resembling stars), it is magically prized for divination, astrology, and clairvoyance.
     6. Opal- an opaque gemstone that comes in a variety of colors, it is notable for its color-play effect. Magically, it is prized for hypnotism, mesmerism, telepathy and telempathy, as well as with geasi and glamourie. Different opals are valued for different things.
        1. Pearly opal, which has a white color scheme, is prized for spells of calming and entrancing.
        2. Fire opal, which has a red and orange color play, is useful for arousing powerful emotion and directing it.
        3. Water opal, which has a blue, green, and yellow color play, is useful for banishing emotion and opening the mind to receive thought.
        4. Rose opal, which has a pink and red color play, is useful for projecting and receiving emotion.
        5. Shadow opal, which has a black and dark blue color play, is useful for unnoticeability spells and for shutting or hiding from psychic gifts.
     7. Tanzanite (Arcanald)- a translucent gemstone of deep purple-blue coloration. It is prized magically for spells involving portals. It is named for its powerful, and important, arcane uses.
  6. Semiprecious Gems:
     1. Obsidian- obsidian is black volcanic glass that forms naturally. It can form very sharp edges. Snowflake obsidian, wherein  there are white, spherical inclusions in it, is also valuable. Normal obsidian is valued in magic for certain forms of scrying, for necromantic sight, for making knives and athames used in necromancy, and for making necromantic mirrors. Snowflake obsidian is useful for wards against necromancy.
     2. Hematite (Zarethin)- hematite is an opaque, pitch-black gemstone that is normally cut en cabochon. It is valued for enchantments to resist and dispel magic. It is named for the Elemental Circle's demonic goddess Zareseth.
     3. Spinel- a translucent gemstone that comes in a variety of colors. It is fairly common, and is useful (though not spectacular) for illusions and glamouries, as well as transformation.
     4. Chrysoberyl (Ranan)- a translucent gemstone that normally appears bright green but in special lighting appears bright red. It is a very hard gemstone, and is spectacularly useful for illusions, astral projection, and coercion.
     5. Azurite/malachite (Aquira)- an opaque gemstone, it is mostly deep blue (azurite) with circular, layered green inclusions (malachite). It is valued for use in spells involving freshwater, and also for the growth of water plants.
     6. Carnelian- an opaque orangey-red gemstone, it is valued for spells of heat, flames, and rage (mostly calming it).
     7. Onyx- an opaque gemstone usually black but occasionally black and white banded, it is treasured, in its black form, for a variety of necromantic spells, and the banded variety is prized for protection against necromancy, and to ward against the undead.
     8. Tourmaline- a translucent gemstone that comes in pink, red, black, blue, green, or clear. It is not spectacular at magic, but is used for truth spells.
        1. The green variety is used to help heal pathological liars.
        2. The pink variety reacts to and dispels illusion.
        3. The red variety forces the truth from the subject.
        4. The black variety breaks truth spells and prevents the truth from being spoken.
        5. The blue variety reacts to truth and identifies falsehoods.
        6. The clear variety can be substituted for any other variety for only slightly inferior effects.
     9. Peridot- a translucent light (almost yellowy) green gemstone, it is useful for spells concerning the growth and health of plants.
     10. Garnet- a translucent red gemstone, it comes in three varieties, each useful for a different purpose.
         1. Pyrope (common garnet)- brilliant red, it is useful for spells invoking unreasoning rage. It is more often used for decoration.
         2. Spessartine (flame garnet)- lighter red than pyrope, and occasionally tinged with orange, it can be used for spells of detecting and controlling rage. It is sometimes used for spells invoking heat.
         3. Almandine (dark garnet)- a gemstone so deep a red as to be nearly black, it is the most valuable magically speaking. It is prized for spells involving hatred. It is almost never used in decoration or jewelry.
     11. Topaz- a translucent gemstone that comes in golden-yellow, pink, blue, brown, and clear/colorless. While pink and blue (both are not particularly common, and not much prized for jewelry) are almost useless magically, the golden-yellow (the most common) and brown (rarest and most valuable) varieties are used for spells involving earth and the ground. The clear variety is used for clear thought, sight, and scrying.
  7. Organic Gems:
     1. Pearl- pearls are shimmery-white, spherical gems formed inside oysters. They are useful for a variety of spells involving the sea, most especially for spells of breathing underwater, as well as being used in illusions and glamourie. Black pearls are prized for their affinity for sea abysses.
     2. Mother-of-pearl- a shimmery blue to white substance that is gotten from the insides of pearl-forming shellfish, it is useful magically for enchantment and dreams.
     3. Amber- a semi-translucent amber colored gemstone that is formed from petrified tree sap. It is useful for spells of preservation.
     4. Jet- an opaque black gemstone formed from organic origins, it is valued for spells of darkness, sadness, despair, fear, terror, unnoticeability, and some necromancy (anchoring shades).

I would like to note that there are even more obscure ones, but this list gets a lot, all in one place (I literally went through a book on minerals for them). I also included descriptions of the gemstones: opaque/translucent, color, etc. This list was as much for me to keep all the different gems straight as to list magical affinities. I hope it helps someone.

Dude, this is really helpful!