SKA - Is it Resolved?

[Darvys]

25 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Shallan and Adolin is a textbook definition of an arranged marriage--it was arranged by a third part external to the two in question without consent. The fact that they could have backed out is moot--a contract was made and established by Jasnah and Navani without consulting Adolin or Shallan. The fact that they actually liked each other is a fortunate benefit, but something that is rarely accomplished, as is indicated in @PlanetReelo's quote above. 

Brandon went out of his way to make it clear through multiple characters that there was no actual contract or obligation to see the marriage through for either party, so i don't quite see what makes it a "textbook definition of an arranged marriage". The whole thing was only a small step above Adolin's usual courting in that his family were slightly more involved in the process. The label they put on the relationship was only meant to keep other families at bay while the two got to know each other, there was no compulsion and the party in a position of power was less eager to see it happen.

Besides where do you even get that the causal betrothal was even a thing before Shallan had her say ? Yes, Jasnah spoke to Navani first, who then may or may not have gotten a little too excited by the prospect, but i don't remember reading anywhere that they put anything in motion before getting Shallan's clear approval.

[PlanetReelo she/her]

50 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Brandon went out of his way to make it clear through multiple characters that there was no actual contract or obligation to see the marriage through for either party, so i don't quite see what makes it a "textbook definition of an arranged marriage". The whole thing was only a small step above Adolin's usual courting in that his family were slightly more involved in the process. The label they put on the relationship was only meant to keep other families at bay while the two got to know each other, there was no compulsion and the party in a position of power was less eager to see it happen.

Besides where do you even get that the causal betrothal was even a thing before Shallan had her say ? Yes, Jasnah spoke to Navani first, who then may or may not have gotten a little too excited by the prospect, but i don't remember reading anywhere that they put anything in motion before getting Shallan's clear approval.

I would say that they're a fairly good representation of what an arranged marriage is. Your marriage is proposed by family members, you meet and court for a very short period of time and then get married. Of course you get a say in the matter -  arranged marriages are not synonymous with forced marriages (that's a different matter entirely). Although there's plenty of encouragement and/or pressure from family members. I would say that Navani's overzealous reaction and Jasnah's presumption to make arrangements before even telling Shallan reflects this.

And then there's the artificial environment in which you get to know one another. I particularly disliked Shallan and Adolin's interactions during WoR, because so much of it was littered with thoughts of Shallan trying to impress Adolin and convey herself a certain way to gain his interest. It was all so cold and calculating. So when Shallan and Kaladin had such a wonderfully natural, uncontrived scene in the chasms, I found it very refreshing. Isn't it funny how our personal experiences shape our interpretations of text?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

13 minutes ago, PlanetReelo said:

I would say that Navani's overzealous reaction and Jasnah's presumption to make arrangements before even telling Shallan reflects this.

I can understand your point about Navani being a little careless when it came to considering if Shallan wanted to do the marriage. I would like to point out, however, that Jasnah repeatedly told Shallan that she was sorry (indirectly, but that's kind of Jasnah's way) for setting up the marriage. It wasn't so much that she tried to arrange the marriage without Shallan's permission either, it just kind of happened since Navani was so excited at the prospect.

As for your opinions on arranged marriages, I'll just say I agree and disagree, but I don't want to start an argument.

[Calderis he/him]

I just don't see at what point they were pressured? 

Dalinar basically says "This seems like a raw deal but I'll let it stand for now cause maybe then Adolin will be less trouble" but leaves all decision making up to them. 

Navani, while she was excited at the prospect, is outright hostile towards Shallan at first because of the association with Jasnah's "death" and Adolin is constantly trying to show how great he thinks Shallan is. 

If anything, they had incentive to walk away from each other, and built it up themselves because they wanted it to happen, and the references in OB to how much time they spend together, and the ways in which Shallan enjoys their time together, are why I question this. 

Yes, Shallan worries that she'll screw it up, at first because of her family... But after the end of WoR, her family has literally no bearing on her relationship. And she's still worried she's going to screw it up because she wants it to happen. 

Where is the pressure from anyone other than themselves to make the marriage happen? The only place I can see that is on the boat when it's first proposed, when Shallan basically throws herself into it full force. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Calderis

[Darvys]

36 minutes ago, PlanetReelo said:

I would say that they're a fairly good representation of what an arranged marriage is. Your marriage is proposed by family members, you meet and court for a very short period of time and then get married. Of course you get a say in the matter -  arranged marriages are not synonymous with forced marriages (that's a different matter entirely). Although there's plenty of encouragement and/or pressure from family members. I would say that Navani's overzealous reaction and Jasnah's presumption to make arrangements before even telling Shallan reflects this.

And then there's the artificial environment in which you get to know one another. I particularly disliked Shallan and Adolin's interactions during WoR, because so much of it was littered with thoughts of Shallan trying to impress Adolin and convey herself a certain way to gain his interest. It was all so cold and calculating. So when Shallan and Kaladin had such a wonderfully natural, uncontrived scene in the chasms, I found it very refreshing. Isn't it funny how our personal experiences shape our interpretations of text?

Fair point, i was careless with the terminology, but that has a lot to do with how many people seem to use the term "arranged" with the uglier connotation in mind. As far as i'm concerned as long as there's no compulsion ( and i count pressuring an individual who cannot bear it as compulsion ) there's no evil i can point to in arranged marriages, which is why the firm opposition of so many people to the concept in this thread and in general baffles me.

My point being that i fail to see the wrongness in the particular case we're discussing. Yes, we can blame Jasnah for bringing the subject up to Navani first, but bear in mind that from Shallan's pov this betrothal was at first a way to ensure her siblings' safety, what good would it do to get her opinion on the matter ( getting her hopes up in the process ) before even verifying that the solution could be implemented ? I personally don't fault Jasnah for her handling of the mess she was dealt, and once again i have to point out that nothing was really done before Shallan gave her consent, so even Navani's excitement wasn't harmful in any way i can see, they didn't sign a contract, they didn't make an announcement, they just talked about it.

The point about the additional pressure also falls flat to me since we can clearly see from the start that the couple wants the relationship to work for their own benefit, the fact that their respective families also stand to gain from the union shouldn't detract from that fact.

And lastly, as painful as watching their earlier interactions knowing what went through Shallan's head was, that's about what i'd expect from two young people with close to nothing in common trying to find something to bond over ( because i repeat they both want the relationship to work for their own benefit ), it's far from the ideal love story, but it's even farther from the contrived picture some people here seem to think Brandon is fond of feeding us.

 

Now since i don't think i even bothered to answer Op's question i'll do it now : I fervently wish that SKA is resolved, i think that K has more than enough on his plate, let the couple deal with the mess on their own, i'll welcome any outcome as long as it makes sense and doesn't involve Kaladin.

[Angsos]

I think Adolin wanted to go through with it because someone else made the big decision. Shallan wanted a facade of happiness she could hide behind. Between them Syl will help Kal resolve his issues so he'll be good, more or less; I still have no idea how she can summon the patternblade. She has yet to have her teft moment and rise to the occasion.

[Vissy]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

I just don't see at what point they were pressured? 

Dalinar basically says "This seems like a raw deal but I'll let it stand for now cause maybe then Adolin will be less trouble" but leaves all decision making up to them. 

Navani, while she was excited at the prospect, is outright hostile towards Shallan at first because of the association with Jasnah's "death" and Adolin is constantly trying to show how great he thinks Shallan is. 

If anything, they had incentive to walk away from each other, and built it up themselves because they wanted it to happen, and the references in OB to how much time they spend together, and the ways in which Shallan enjoys their time together, are why I question this. 

Yes, Shallan worries that she'll screw it up, at first because of her family... But after the end of WoR, her family has literally no bearing on her relationship. And she's still worried she's going to screw it up because she wants it to happen. 

Where is the pressure from anyone other than themselves to make the marriage happen? The only place I can see that is on the boat when it's first proposed, when Shallan basically throws herself into it full force. 

Social pressure. Everyone expects them to get together because it's an arranged marriage, and expects them to make it work. Shallan's entire future (and the future of her beloved siblings) is riding on the marriage. That's an incredibly amount of pressure on her end to make it work. 

[Calderis he/him]

56 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Social pressure. Everyone expects them to get together because it's an arranged marriage, and expects them to make it work. Shallan's entire future (and the future of her beloved siblings) is riding on the marriage. That's an incredibly amount of pressure on her end to make it work. 

And as I said in the post you quoted... Who was expecting it? 

Dalinar and Navani weren't applying any. Jasnah was "dead." Elhokar paid no notice. 

And after Mraize gets her siblings out of Jah Keved what bearing do they have on the situation? Her house is already fallen and no debt collectors are coming for them any longer.

What pressure? From who? 

[Vissy]

I don't understand your question. Navani and Jasnah both expected it. Almost every noble and acquaintance around them expected something to come of it. Societal pressure isn't necessarily explicit; it isn't usually someone walking up to you and just straight-out proclaiming "I want you and Adolin to marry", it's indirect and all-encompassing. Think about gender expectations in society. Who walks up to you and says "this is how a man acts; why are you not acting like a man"? it's conveyed more subtly. In disapproving behaviour. In associated fears such as loss of status. And seriously, I doubt Shallan trusts Mraize at all. That he says he got her family out of Jah Keved is probably more disconcerting than it is helpful, I mean that's almost like saying he can strike at them at his leisure. That's not pressure? In Jasnah's case (a very influential person in Shallan's life), she multiple times pressured Shallan to go along with the marriage, such as by admonishing her Kaladin sketching during OB. 

So to answer your question, "the social pressure from the society around her".

Edited August 3, 2018 by Vissy

[PlanetReelo she/her]

8 hours ago, Vissy said:

I don't understand your question. Navani and Jasnah both expected it. Almost every noble and acquaintance around them expected something to come of it. Societal pressure isn't necessarily explicit; it isn't usually someone walking up to you and just straight-out proclaiming "I want you and Adolin to marry", it's indirect and all-encompassing. Think about gender expectations in society. Who walks up to you and says "this is how a man acts; why are you not acting like a man"? it's conveyed more subtly. In disapproving behaviour. In associated fears such as loss of status. And seriously, I doubt Shallan trusts Mraize at all. That he says he got her family out of Jah Keved is probably more disconcerting than it is helpful, I mean that's almost like saying he can strike at them at his leisure. That's not pressure? In Jasnah's case (a very influential person in Shallan's life), she multiple times pressured Shallan to go along with the marriage, such as by admonishing her Kaladin sketching during OB. 

I completely agree with this. The very act of being in a betrothal means that you have a higher level of commitment to the union than normal courtship. That compounded by Adolin's superior social standing makes it that much more of a pressured situation. Shallan would also experience a greater deal of social stigma than Adolin would should the betrothal be broken. 

I also feel that there are other factors contributing to Shallan having gone through with the marriage. From one of Shallan's earlier passages from WoK, it can be inferred that she had a longstanding schema whereby she expected to be married off to another noble (picked out by her father) and fill the role of a married lighteyes lady. And then we have Adolin, who was picked out by Jasnah, and is able to provide her with the closest thing to the future that she was brought up to expect. He represents the correct course of her future - the union that is deemed most proper and beneficial.

There's also something to be said about Shallan's unnatural reaction whenever she perceives Adolin as pulling away from her. I believe that it's this reaction that led her to diving headlong into the marriage. Adolin providing her with an option to leave likely put the fear of god in her, because the decision to continue with a relationship is far less daunting and final than deciding to end it altogether (which is what would have happened I imagine, because I'd expect Adolin to have enough pride not to go running back to her if she changed her mind). So she had the choice to stay in a secure, beneficial and pleasant union with one man, or to potentially be left alone with her demons in a state of uncertainty (there's no guarantee that a union with Kaladin was even possible, let alone would lead to a longterm relationship). It's human nature for people to tread the path of least resistance. She then proceeded to overcompensate to resecure her relationship with Adolin, even telling a half truth that Veil was the one in love with Kaladin, and had 'bad taste in men'. The latter is particularly laughable, because if Kaladin is the sort of choice that results from 'bad taste', then I'm not quite sure what actually constitutes good taste. It just feels so false that I had to start doubting everything that Shallan was saying in that passage.

Edited August 3, 2018 by PlanetReelo

[Calderis he/him]

Eh. I disagree. 

It was hammered repeatedly that the betrothal was "only a causal." It was not formal. There were no requirements. There were no actual expectations. 

On Adolin's end, if anything, everyone expected him to walk away from the relationship like he's always done. 

And with Shallan, as I've said the only pressure on her was her family situation, which the end of WoR removed. I didn't say that she viewed Mraize having them as a good thing, because that was probably terrifying, but it did remove any bearing the relationship had on her family's well-being.

The Alethi are scheming political creatures. I think most of them saw the "causal" as a ploy, because that's what it was from Dalinar's perspective. A way to keep others from trying to use Adolin with no expectations that anything would actually come of it. 

[Angsos]

Could she really believe Mraize was telling the truth about getting them out?

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Eh. I disagree. 

It was hammered repeatedly that the betrothal was "only a causal." It was not formal. There were no requirements. There were no actual expectations. 

On Adolin's end, if anything, everyone expected him to walk away from the relationship like he's always done. 

And with Shallan, as I've said the only pressure on her was her family situation, which the end of WoR removed. I didn't say that she viewed Mraize having them as a good thing, because that was probably terrifying, but it did remove any bearing the relationship had on her family's well-being.

The Alethi are scheming political creatures. I think most of them saw the "causal" as a ploy, because that's what it was from Dalinar's perspective. A way to keep others from trying to use Adolin with no expectations that anything would actually come of it. 

That's still not how societal pressure works. Even if the Alethi think it's just a ploy, they still outwardly portray full confidence in the marriage - that's just how high society works. And do you think it's that clear and logical from Shallan's perspective even if she perfectly understood Alethi culture? She was brought up to expect exactly the type of arranged marraige that was offered to her with Adolin, and she knows that almost every influential person in her life would disapprove of a decision to call the marriage off. 

Of course from Adolin's end the pressure to finally end up in a successful relationship is enormous, it was even highlighted during OB in his rare moments of introspection.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Vissy

[wotbibliophile]

I'm on the side that thinks Shallan/Adolin is another arranged marriage that miraculously is perfectly happy. I want Sanderson to stop. I think Shallan had enormous pressure to make the courtship end in marriage because she thought it would be good for her social standing and her family's social standing. I think Adolin put enormous pressure on himself to make the courtship end in marriage because he literally had no hope of any other relationship working for him. He had gone through every Alethi woman already.

 

I can't remember if I answered the OP question so I'll say I think SKA is resolved and resolved badly. I hope it is not resolved.

 

[Angsos]

It won't be perfectly happy, Shallan has two major personalities and a minor one. She still thinks of them as separate and one has unresolved feelings. All this would have to be swept under the rug.

[wotbibliophile]

@Angsos I think you are disregarding the evidence. They have never had a conflict. Adolin has tried to break up with Shallan twice and two seconds later their relationship is the same.

[Angsos]

They weren't married before so Shallan could hide behind her masks. Now they'll be living together so she can't hide anymore. I expect book four will have lots of Shallan drama in it.

[wotbibliophile]

@Angsos Alright. Perhaps you are right. Living together will make it much harder for Shallan to hide. I give you that.

[PlanetReelo she/her]

I don't think I actually answered the OP's question either. I think that SKA is far from over. I am of the opinion that Kaladin will move on for the time being, however Shallan will become acutely aware of the unresolved feelings for Kaladin that she refused to address in OB, particularly when she reintergrates. As it stands, she isn't even able to entertain the idea of being with Kaladin because she hasn't dealt with his part in Helaran's death.

It's just counterintuitive to think that BS would include so much build up to Shalladin only for it to be thrown to the wayside. I have always been of the opinion that SKA will reflect navani/dalinar/gavilar, and I still believe this. I would love for BS to expand on that WOB where he stated that he intentionally made the SKA relationships mirror another.

Edited August 3, 2018 by PlanetReelo

[Ashspren]

If it continues to reflect the Navani/Dalinar/Gavilar love triangle, that means that Adolin will die... I’m legitimately going to cry. 

[CosmicSieve]

19 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

If it continues to reflect the Navani/Dalinar/Gavilar love triangle, that means that Adolin will die... 

... in about thirty years. 

 

[Angsos]

@Ashspren Very clever sig using all the shards we know, have an upvote

[Ashspren]

On 8/3/2018 at 5:21 PM, CosmicSieve said:

... in about thirty years. 

 

At least we have thirty years. Thanks for prolonging my heartbreak, Sanderson.

2 hours ago, Angsos said:

@Ashspren Very clever sig using all the shards we know, have an upvote

Thanks! I’m thinking about adding more to the pledge as we come to know all of the other Shards...

[CosmicSieve]

12 hours ago, Ashspren said:

At least we have thirty years. Thanks for prolonging my heartbreak, Sanderson.

All flippancy aside, I hope Adolin lives a long and happy life, as he is such a sweetie and one of my favorite characters. 

In WoR, I loved the adorable budding romance between Shallan and Adolin. I also loved the contention between Shallan and Kaladin and the chasm scenes are some of my favorites ever. The proto-love-triangle-thingy, such as it was. also had me worried that the solution would be via death, probably of Adolin. The resolution in Oathbringer was a big relief; nobody in the triangle died.

So to answer the OP's question, yes, I do think the love triangle is resolved as it existed,  but I am going to agree with a lot of posters here who have pointed out that there are a lot of related issues that haven't been dealt with. Helaran is a big one. Shallan shoved her feelings away on Kaladin killing her brother, and hasn't faced them yet. Kaladin also seemed to have filed it away somewhere, not wanting to deal with it. Now that Shallan's other brothers have arrived in Urithiru, it is only a matter of time before they figure out what happened. I really wish Shallan and Kaladin could be good friends, because I like their scenes together, but this is such a big mess that needs to be resolved. Unfortunately, I can't see anyone wanting to be pals with someone who killed their beloved brother. 

[Ashspren]

I kind of want to see Shaladin resolved as a sibling relationship— one where they roast each other constantly, but are always there for each other when they need it most.