SKA - Is it Resolved?

[Chaos]

On 7/23/2018 at 7:00 PM, BitBitio said:

Why is this such a touchy subject? I mean, I'm crazy about Sanderson, but this shipping has gone wayyyyy too far. I'm not taking sides because I'm on my own side, but come on guys, it's a love triangle, and we're letting it ruin our day! 

Look, Brandon wrote what he wrote and we can't change that. Arguing between Shalladin and Shadolin isn't going to change what Brandon writes. So, I'm leaving it like this: Shallan and Adolin are now married. And, well, to you Shalladiners, Brandon might not change it. And Shadoliners, I'm not on your side just because I believe that they will stay together, but, I do believe that Brandon is leaving the triangle as it is. They have more important things to focus on, like the Dawnshards. 

SKA is indeed done. Now it is SA. Stormlight Archive. And the heroes have bigger problems to deal with now.

Don't attack me.

It is important that character discussion feels welcome here. Shipping discussion absolutely is welcome here on this site. We would appreciate if this conversation is not your cup of tea to post in a variety of other topics instead. We can all get along and discuss a lot of things on this site, so if you'd like to discuss Dawnshards, go for it! 

Thanks! 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Chaos

[Rainier]

On 7/20/2018 at 7:04 PM, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

I was rereading OB recently and specifically paying attention to Pattern and I believe that Shallan's bond with Pattern has weakened noticeably from WoR to OB following her inability to accept the truth of her mother's death. Continued willful ignorance of the truths she has spoken will lead to the death of Pattern in my opinion.

Yes, thank you. Shallan can have Adolin, or Pattern, but not both, because (everybody say it with me) SHE'S LYING TO HERSELF!

 

On 7/21/2018 at 1:28 AM, cantabile21 said:

Even though Shallan plans to tell Adolin about her involvement with the Ghostbloods, it would not be out of character for her to keep delaying that moment until... never?

Until Pattern's actually dies, or until his dying can no longer be ignored. That said, if Pattern does get killed by Shallan, it will be because she realizes she's killing him, and then pushes that down just like she does with all of her problems.

 

On 7/21/2018 at 7:19 AM, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

I personally think Shallan is yet to reach the nadir of her storyline. We know that Lightweaver ideals are based on self-awareness and truths. Shallan is not being honest with herself by identifying Veil as a separate entity. She has not been honest with Adolin about her tragic past or her involvement with the Ghostbloods. She has not been honest in regards to her feelings for Kaladin 'Veil having bad taste in men'. Throughout Oathbringer there is evidence that Shallan's bond with Pattern has been weakening. If Shallan continues down her current path she will kill Pattern... a second time. 

Awww yes, we're getting there. She's still lying, she's never confronted the truths she needs to, and her lies are killing Pattern. The reason is that she has to go through the same thing Kaladin did. She has to realize that her choices have real consequences when it comes to her spren, and she has to make choices not just for herself, but with Pattern in mind.

 

On 7/21/2018 at 4:47 PM, Calderis said:

@SLNC by that logic, no one has ever seen Shallan. Period.

I think that's almost true, but you're wrong. Wit has seen Shallan, the whole of Shallan, but I don't think anyone else has.

Wit/Hoid is trying to help her, but he's not going to get bogged down saving one poor little girl or one LieSpren.

[Ashspren]

42 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Wit/Hoid is trying to help her, but he's not going to get bogged down saving one poor little girl or one LieSpren.

I feel like we’re going to get a “dark Hoid” moment here. I think it’ll be something like this (written like a movie script because why not):

We see SHALLAN kneeling on the floor. Her hair is a tangled mess as tears Tun down her face, ruining her makeup. She is clutching the hem of a black coat, which is embroidered with silver thread. Her safehand is exposed by the gesture, but it is clear that she is too distressed to care. 

Camera angles up, and we see HOID, known as Wit to most of the people on Roshar. His face is unreadable.

SHALLAN: Please. I need help. I needed to learn to be loved, like you said all those years ago.

HOID: I gave you the advice, and you didn’t take it. I’m sorry, but I have to leave. Let go, child.

HOID tries to remove her hands from his coat, but SHALLAN has an iron grip and won’t let go.

SHALLAN: You’re the only one who’s ever understood! You’re the only one who can help me. I’ve told lies... so many lies. I’ve hurt people, Wit.

HOID: As have I.

SHALLAN: I’ve been a lie to everyone— everyone but you. You... you can help...

HOID: I can help, indeed. But I won’t. He pauses for a moment. You know what I’ve learned, child? Everyone longs to be significant. But in this vast Cosmere, not many people can become significant. You aren’t. And now that I’m so close to making such a difference... I can’t let a small matter like this stop me. HOID wrenches SHALLAN’s hands away with inhuman strength, and turns the opposite direction. SHALLAN stares at his retreating figure in shock. You aren’t worth my time.

~ End Scene ~

Edit: Well that was fun to write, even if it was WAY too overdramatic and telenovela-esque. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Ashspren

[Rainier]

14 hours ago, Ashspren said:

I feel like we’re going to get a “dark Hoid” moment here. I think it’ll be something like this (written like a movie script because why not):

I suppose we could see a dark Hoid, but he's already pretty much done this. He talks about three kinds of people who deal with the falling rock of time: those who run out of its way, those who stand up to it (and are crushed), and those very few who run alongside it all the way down the hill and try to give it a little nudge at opportune moments.

Shallan looks for all the world like one of those bugsplats in the making, and Hoid's much too smart to get caught next to someone like that when the shadow of that rock finally falls on them a moment before they too are crushed. We've seen it happen in pretty much every time we've seen Hoid, and he's told Dalinar and Shallan the same thing.

[Ashspren]

@Rainier Nice reference to the rock, that’s a great way to put it!

[elbereth_gilthoniel]

On 7/20/2018 at 8:07 AM, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

I do admit that part of my certainty in the love triangle being unresolved lies in the fact that I have grown weary of arranged marriages in Brandon Sanderson's books. I acknowledge that arranged marriages were very common during medieval times and that many cultures today predominantly use systems of arranged marriage. Maybe this is just the product of my Western upbringing talking but one of my biggest gripes with Brandon's writing, of which there are few, is the continued use of arranged marriages in his romances. I hope to see the day when Brandon turns this narrative element on its head and shows us a failed arranged marriage (no, I don't count Evi and Dalinar). I'm still slightly bitter about the contrived resolution to OB with the wedding and the eye-roll inducing 'without you I fade' dialogue. Also, I feel that it is important to note that I really enjoyed Wax and Steris' romance to date in Mistborn Era 2. I felt like it evolved organically and is some of Brandon's best writing. Adolin and Shallan's romance was distinctly cheesier and felt forced in comparison. 

This is one of the reasons why I hope and have the tendency to believe that SKA isn't resolved yet. If SA is going to be Brandon's magnum opus, I would hope that this is the series where he tosses some of his own tropes out, like the "arranged marriage always ending with a happy couple" deal. If any of his series were to do that, I think SA is the most likely of the bunch to do so. Especially since Adolin and Shallan married in book three out of ten.

Basically the fact that Brandon likes to throw in twists into his narratives and the tendency for his arranged marriage story lines to work out is why I think that the SKA triangle isn;t resolved. Aside from all of the issues discussed previously, like Shallan not being in the right state of mind to make a decision (which I agree with whole-heart with. Girl is 10 levels of messed up).

 

[CosmicSieve]

9 hours ago, elbereth_gilthoniel said:

This is one of the reasons why I hope and have the tendency to believe that SKA isn't resolved yet. If SA is going to be Brandon's magnum opus, I would hope that this is the series where he tosses some of his own tropes out, like the "arranged marriage always ending with a happy couple" deal.

Just wanted to point out that Oathbringer showed us another arranged marriage, and Dalinar and Evi did not have a happy marriage. 

[elbereth_gilthoniel]

5 hours ago, CosmicSieve said:

Just wanted to point out that Oathbringer showed us another arranged marriage, and Dalinar and Evi did not have a happy marriage. 

I don't necessarily agree with that.  

Dalinar and Evi's marriage never disintegrated into resentment or dislike, which is why I wouldn't call it an unhappy one. I interpreted it as more of a classic arranged marriage situation where the two parties respect and care about one another, but never are truly in love with each other.  Evi is shown to have really cared for Dalinar and we see that while Dalinar never falls in love with Evi, he did care for her in his own way.

[wotbibliophile]

2 hours ago, elbereth_gilthoniel said:

Dalinar and Evi's marriage never disintegrated into resentment or dislike, which is why I wouldn't call it an unhappy one. I interpreted it as more of a classic arranged marriage situation where the two parties respect and care about one another, but never are truly in love with each other.  Evi is shown to have really cared for Dalinar and we see that while Dalinar never falls in love with Evi, he did care for her in his own way.

Thank you for writing this out. I thought that was so weird. Of all people Dalinar and Evi should not have gotten along, but somehow they did. Every time Dalinar showed he was considerate of Evi's feelings I was surprised because I expect the worst from him. His self regard is never ending.

I would say Dalinar was resentful at first and at a few points in his marriage, but he was still (for him) kind to Evi. His resentment did not lead to much cruelty. I think it would have been reasonable for the marriage to lead to dislike, but somehow it never did.

[Jofwu]

You guys saw those flashbacks in a different light than I did, or maybe your only point is that it wasn't as bad as you expected. I'd say Dalinar and Evi's marriage was very much NOT a happy marriage.There was only one flashback I recall where their relationship seemed kind of okay. Dalinar wasn't physically abusive I guess, but that's a pretty low bar. In every other aspect of their relationship, Dalinar is a textbook Bad Husband most of the time, as far as I can tell.

I tend to agree that Brandon has overdone the arranged marriage thing, but it doesn't really bother me so long as it's not some kind of weird commentary to suggest that arranged marriages are superior.

I don't think we can assume he will diverge from the trope just because Stormlight is his magnum opus. You could just as easily argue that Stormlight is his opportunity to go all out with it. If this is a trope he likes to pull, then Stormlight is the chance to do it better than ever. He has explained that it's at least partly something he does for in-world cultural reasons. Perhaps Shallan-Adolin is Brandon's last hurrah with arranged marriages before the cosmere is culturally beyond them.

Regardless, one reason I'm actually hopeful that Shallan-Adolin will stick is that we don't often get to see married people be married very often in fantasy. At least in my limited experience. Brandon did it a little bit with Vin-Elend I suppose, but their relationship was bland and static (to me) in the third book. I want to see some drama and growth. You could maybe do that with their marriage falling apart, but that's too bitter and tragic for my tastes. And I guess part of what I want to see is a couple "working through problems together"... Not just a couple having problems and failing to work through them.

[Calderis]

@Jofwu agreed on all counts. 

[Ashspren]

@Jofwu exactly what I want to see...

[Argel]

SA could be an opportunity to show a "reaL" marriage. Also, while an arranged marriage, they had plenty of time to get to know each other and it could have been called off (in fact, we see Adolin try and bow out). How "arranged" is that?  Feels a bit too close to friends/family setting someone up for a date that ends up working out. Obviously it's not that, but arranged marriages usually have connotations of being a forced marriage, and I wouldn't say Adolin and Shallan fall into that category.

[elbereth_gilthoniel]

You all make good point, which is why its just a hope of mine (wishful thinking, more like) rather than an assumption that he would turn the arranged marriage trope on its head in SA. Just like how I hope that SKA isn't resolved, but I am inclined to think that the ending we got in Oathbringer was intended to be the resolution.

I guess I need to go re-read Oathbringer to reevaluate my opinion on Dalinar and Evi's marriage? I read it very quickly and with very little sleep since I was barely one month post-partum when it was released. At the moment though, I'm still inclined to think that while it wasn't a great marriage, it wasn't a horrible marriage either. At least in terms of arranged marriages, which is how we need to look at it. I'm not an expert in arranged marriages, but I think we're definitely looking at this "good marriage/bad marriage" debate through our Westernized ideals of marriage. We can't look at their marriage with a modern perspective either, because our idea of a happy marriage now is very different from what a happy marriage looked like even a hundred years ago. Dalinar wasn't a present husband by any means, but he wasn't violent towards Evi and he did show desire to please her and I think for the most part, they got along (when he was around). Or at least we witness his remorse and guilt for not being a better man for her in the narrative. 

Looks like I'm going to pull the book out and take another look! My opinion may or may not change upon further evaluation 

I agree, it would be really neat to see Brandon portray a realistic marriage. With all of the problems Shallan has at the moment, we're definitely going to get conflict in the next book. With that being said, I think its safe to assume that Shallan and Adolin's marriage won't be static like the Vin/Elend pairing. At least not initially? 

 

[Calderis]

This has a lot to do more with culture than it does with anything modern. 

In my area there is a religious group that performs arranged marriages regularly (Apostolic Lutherans if you're curious). I went through my apprenticeship with a guy who met his wife on the day they were married at 17.

From what I've seen of that group, arranged marriages can work fine, because when it is the cultural norm for your group, you work to make it work. 

Keyword in that being can. It's still up to the individuals. These things still happen now. Let's not pretend it's a thing of the past, just because it's no longer the majority. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Calderis

[elbereth_gilthoniel]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This has a lot to do more with culture than it does with anything modern. 

In my area there is a religious group that performs arranged marriages regularly (Apostolic Lutherans if you're curious). I went through my apprenticeship with a guy who met his wife on the day they were married at 17.

From what I've seen of that group, arranged marriages can work fine, because when it is the cultural norm for your group, you work to make it work. 

Keyword in that being can. It's still up to the individuals. These things still happen now. Let's not pretend it's a thing of the past, just because it's no longer the majority. 

I understand that arranged marriages still happen and that they do work. I know for a fact that they're common India. But we can't pretend that SA's timeline is comparable to ours, which is why I said that. SA is not a modern day tale. Not only was the Evi/Dalinar marriage arranged, but it took place in a time that came before the modern age of even the Cosmere itself. 

But this is off topic. If anyone is interested, they can start a topic on Evi and Dalinar's marriage if one doesn't already exist.

[wotbibliophile]

@Jofwu Is happiness the only measure of a successful marriage? Do you have to be happy all the time? I don't think that is reasonable. Both Dalinar and Evi worked to make the marriage work. They were both committed and they both tried. Neither disliked the other. At times they were happy together. It was shown that they admired each other. As far as I am concerned they were a successful marriage.

I agree that showing a marriage is very rare and is something I like to see. I like to see challenges overcome. However, I also prefer to like the couple. At this time, I do not like Shallan/Adolin. The relationship is too unequal. Why on earth does Adolin not think about Shallan throughout OB? The book ends with their marriage! If I remember right, the only thoughts Adolin has about Shallan are disparaging her outfit and noticing that she adores Kaladin. That is all.

[cantabile21]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

SA could be an opportunity to show a "reaL" marriage. Also, while an arranged marriage, they had plenty of time to get to know each other and it could have been called off (in fact, we see Adolin try and bow out). How "arranged" is that?  Feels a bit too close to friends/family setting someone up for a date that ends up working out. Obviously it's not that, but arranged marriages usually have connotations of being a forced marriage, and I wouldn't say Adolin and Shallan fall into that category.

Interesting that you mention Adolin trying to bow out.

Even before Adolin and Shallan actually met in person, the news of just the causal betrothal had already made its way through the grapevine of the Alethi ruling classes. Dalinar's rationale for agreeing to the arrangement and going public with it was that he wanted Adolin to be seen as unavailable and no longer an avenue for other prominent families to gain political favour via marriage. We aren't shown what Adolin thought as he made the painful decision to step back, but knowing Adolin, thoughts of disappointing his family and his father especially would definitely have crossed his mind. It wasn't just face his family would lose, but also the prestige of having the first known Knight Radiant marry into the family, the Brightness Radiant who had found the way to Urithiru and saved them all, so to speak. And yet he followed through, at the end of what had already been a very painful day.

So now that the marriage has actually happened, i hope we would be shown a 'real marriage' like you said, and more. Besides the ordinary struggles of two people learning to build a life together, Adolin and Shallan actually have many other problems just waiting to explode in their lives, what with the nonsense with the Ghostbloods, the arrival of Shallan's problematic brothers, Shallan's various personas and secrets, Adolin's ascension to highprince and his struggles with that while in the enormous shadow of his father who will continue to loom over him, and all this against the backdrop of the ongoing war... yep, i think we're in for plenty of drama. i too hope that it would be more a journey of a couple working through their very many problems and learning and choosing to stay together through it all.

 

[Vissy]

I don't think that Adolin and Shallan are even nearly at a place where they can start working through their issues like normal people, honestly. Adolin is clearly the one with the advantage in the relationship right now because Shallan has to rely on him to "anchor" her current dominant personality, and that kind of dependency has to be cured before they can start with the other stuff IMO. 

 

[Jofwu]

On 7/30/2018 at 4:38 PM, wotbibliophile said:

@Jofwu Is happiness the only measure of a successful marriage? Do you have to be happy all the time? I don't think that is reasonable. Both Dalinar and Evi worked to make the marriage work. They were both committed and they both tried. Neither disliked the other. At times they were happy together. It was shown that they admired each other. As far as I am concerned they were a successful marriage.

We just have very different measuring sticks for a successful marriage I guess. Or perhaps we interpret the characters very differently. Happy all the time? Absolutely not. But I honestly don't see the positives you're indicating.

Evi worked to make the marriage work. She was committed. With a few rare exceptions, Dalinar did little beyond a few attempts to appease her. I'm really not sure where to begin. Would anybody in here consider their marriage acceptable for themselves? Not including the horrible ending of course. Just everything up to that point. If I let you choose between "that will be you" versus a 50:50 chance of successful or not in your own future... would you take the odds or settle with Dalinar-Evi's situation? Personally, I think their relationship is in serious need of counseling at every point along the road. 

Eh, but I don't know if it's worth going down that road. Getting off topic. Sorry.  

[wotbibliophile]

16 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Evi worked to make the marriage work. She was committed. With a few rare exceptions, Dalinar did little beyond a few attempts to appease her.

I think that is fair. I started to regret writing "successful" soon after I posted. I think Dalinar was committed though.

[PlanetReelo]

On 30/07/2018 at 8:24 PM, elbereth_gilthoniel said:

You all make good point, which is why its just a hope of mine (wishful thinking, more like) rather than an assumption that he would turn the arranged marriage trope on its head in SA. Just like how I hope that SKA isn't resolved, but I am inclined to think that the ending we got in Oathbringer was intended to be the resolution.

 

I really hope he turns the trope on it's head too. I come from a culture where arranged marriages are still the norm. And I honestly think it's one of the most toxic and outdated traditions that needs to be rid of. My parents, who had an arranged marriage at age 17, have had the most vitriolic, acrimonious marriage I can think of. At best, I've seen arranged marriages where the partners form a symbiotic and practical relationship built out of necessity. Sometimes love builds over time, but the former is far more common. So it's a real pet peeve of mine when this type of relationship is romanticised. So I have all my fingers and toes crossed that he'll subvert this one.

Edited August 2, 2018 by PlanetReelo

[MountainKing]

It's not really an arranged marriage, all Jasnah did was say I think my apprentice would make a god wife for Adolin. Adolin, Elhokar, Dalinar, or Navini could of just said no and that was it, basically it's like if someone's brother told them that they found the perfect person for them, they meet and then they fall in love, because Adolin is in love, I'm not for sure if Shallan is in love.

 

I also want it to be over because I don't want more conflict between Kaladin and Adolin after them just resolving their conflict.

[Vissy]

Well, knowing Shallan she would not have any problem with being a god wife 

[Alderant]

1 hour ago, PlanetReelo said:

I really hope he turns the trope on it's head too. I come from a culture where arranged marriages are still the norm. And I honestly think it's one of the most toxic and outdated traditions that needs to be rid of. My parents, who had an arranged marriage at age 17, have had the most vitriolic, acrimonious marriage I can think of. At best, I've seen arranged marriages where the partners form a symbiotic and practical relationship built out of necessity. Sometimes love builds over time, but the former is far more common. So it's a real pet peeve of mine when this type of relationship is romanticised. So I have all my fingers and toes crossed that he'll subvert this one.

I think, with respect to your point about arranged marriages here, that this is a really insightful statement. We certainly saw its like in Dalinar and Evi as has been mentioned above, and it's a dangerous trap for any author to fall into--I presume its common use has either to do with periodicity (that's how things were done at the time) or because it's easier to shack to characters up together and say they're in love, then to show them actually falling in love. That is a thing that has been attempted prolificly, but rarely is it accomplished well.

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

It's not really an arranged marriage, all Jasnah did was say I think my apprentice would make a god wife for Adolin. Adolin, Elhokar, Dalinar, or Navini could of just said no and that was it, basically it's like if someone's brother told them that they found the perfect person for them, they meet and then they fall in love, because Adolin is in love, I'm not for sure if Shallan is in love.

 

I also want it to be over because I don't want more conflict between Kaladin and Adolin after them just resolving their conflict.

Shallan and Adolin is a textbook definition of an arranged marriage--it was arranged by a third part external to the two in question without consent. The fact that they could have backed out is moot--a contract was made and established by Jasnah and Navani without consulting Adolin or Shallan. The fact that they actually liked each other is a fortunate benefit, but something that is rarely accomplished, as is indicated in @PlanetReelo's quote above. That said, I don't exactly know what angle Brandon is going to take, but I can confidently say that it's not completely over--even if nothing further will come of Shallan(persona) and Kaladin, there is still the persona of Veil to consider. But I could go at length on that topic and I don't want to sidetrack the discussion with yet another Shallan analysis lol.

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

Well, knowing Shallan she would not have any problem with being a god wife 

Shallan isn't exactly megalomaniacal....